159 replies to this topic

[Steve Heard]

QUOTE (tony @ Feb 11 2004, 09:24 PM)

Anybody: How do I quote pieces of someone else's post?

Hit the quote button

then highlight what you are quoting

Anybody: How do I quote pieces of someone else's post?

[john]

There really needs to be a drop-off lane off of Iron Point. There is significant room next to the sidewalks that can be torn out so parents can pull out of traffic and park in this area along Iron Point, as well as not be in the bike lane. Whoever did the traffic analysis for this school clearly goofed in forecasting the traffic flow.

[tony]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Feb 11 2004, 08:11 PM)

Tony, the area I am talking about is Iron Point at, I believe, Grover. There is bike lane along Grover, and along Iron Point, and Prairie City.   It doesn't really matter, though, because every inch of curb space surrounding the school is marked as bike lane, and 'no stopping' When FHS was planned, who knew that it would be so overwhelmed in capacity that it would require a new school be built within a few short years, and that cars would be spilling into the streets because of it.   Laws get changed, or go uninforced, not simply because of inconvenience, but because the spirit under which they were created does not reflect the reality of today. Suggesting that the kids walk to school makes as much sense as suggesting everyone in Folsom walk to work. That would take care of that Riley Street traffic, wouldn't it. This isn't Davis, and we although we have great recreational bike trails, it is not practical for everyone to bike to work or school. The bike lanes around the school were put there before the school was built, and the school was built before 2300 to 2500 students enrolled. In fact, the school opened in 1998, and in 2000 the need for for another high school was apparent. Several parents I know have talked about and wondered how to get the no stopping signs taken down so that parents can legally drop off and wait for their kids. Actually, that might be the best solution, along with slowing down the traffic on those streets. Before we do that, how about if we all tolerate the parents who have to drop off their kids, and not assume that they are selfish or lazy scofflaws. They are stuck in a crappy situation that will go away once the new school  opens. Besides, it only happens twice a day, for a bout 1/2 hour at a time. You will notice that the bike lanes are completely empty until then.

stevethedad: The bike lanes at Grover and Iron Point are not wide enough to accommodate a stopped car and a bicycle. There’s a reason those bike lanes are everywhere: like other traffic lanes, they must be continuous to be useful.

Who knew that the school would be overwhelmed with students? Anybody who read the general plan, that's who.

Nice try about the “realities of today”, but the reality of today is that visionary people are recognizing that, like with so many of our traffic problems today, the problem isn’t that there isn’t enough room for people to drop off their kids but that too many people are trying to do it because they have no other choice, or they think they have no other choice. For 50 plus years we have been trying to design the perfect suburb for our cars, and we’ve pretty much succeeded. The only problem is that the perfect suburb for our cars isn’t so perfect for we who own the cars. The pendulum is swinging back as planners and engineers have realized that putting all of or eggs in the car basket has led to far too many broken eggs. Bike lanes are a small step back in the right direction of providing safe mode choices.

According to your logic, if every student cannot walk or bike to school, then none should and we should not bother making it safe for those who do, if that might inconvenience the parents of those who don't. Currently somewhat less than 10% of kids walk or bike to school (probably less at Folsom High). Forty years ago between 75% and 90% of kids did. If the current number were doubled, there would be almost 200 less cars at the school every morning. You don’t think that would make a difference? As for the practicality of walking or biking, every kid who lives south of the river is within 5 miles of the school. Even at a leisurely 10 mph, that’s at most a 30 minute commute (roughly how long it takes me to drag 130 lbs of trailers and children 5 miles, mostly uphill, to their day care in the morning). If you did that a couple times a week, you would quickly lower the time to about 20 minutes. And exactly what is wrong with the Davis model? Davis is the way it is because 40 years ago they made a conscious decision to make their city safe and convenient for bicycling. Now they have a 25% mode share for cycling, and have spent a lot less money on excessively wide roads than cities like Folsom.

You seem to think that if the school were there before the bike lanes that the city never would have put in the bike lanes. That is not the case at all. Regardless of whether you will let your daughter bike to school or not (3 miles is a perfect distance, incidentally), some parents do, and the bike lanes are there for the safety of those children and the other cyclists who use Iron Point. There is no reasonable alternative route, and the heaviest usage of the bike lanes is during the commute hours, the two times per day when people are parking in the bike lanes. You don't seem to want to accept the fact that the no stopping zones are for the protection of those who choose to bike on Iron Point, not primarily to annoy the parents trying to drop off their kids. And the signs aren’t going anywhere. Those of us who fought to get the signs put up are not about to let that happen.

How about a real creative solution: There is 84 ft of pavement width on Iron Point dedicated to cars and 12 ft to bike lanes. If you think there should be drop-off lanes on Iron Point, then the logical solution is to eliminate two of the 7 traffic lanes (6 through and 1 left turn) and build a drop-off lane or two. After all, it's only twice a day that you have enough traffic on Iron Point to warrant 7 traffic lanes. The rest of the day, that road is a huge waste of money.

So, back to the theme of this thread: bad etiquette, here’s a couple of examples of what we bicyclists have to put up with during the drop-off. 1) I’m riding westbound in the bike lane on Iron Point about 500 ft. from Grover traveling at about 20 mph, only 5 mph below the speed limit (there are children walking to school). Cars are passing me at 45-55 mph, slowing slightly because of the congestion at Grover. A car in the right lane speeds up to get past me, pulls into the bike lane and slams on the brakes. I am forced to swerve into the traffic lane to go around the car because he/she didn’t leave enough room for me to stop. 2) In a very similar incident, which happens rather frequently, I’m stopped at the light at Grover along with numerous cars in all lanes. As soon as the light turns green, the first car in the lane next to me jack rabbits out and pulls into the bike lane immediately on the other side of the intersection and stops, forcing me to stop and wait for her precious son or daughter to get out. I’ve actually hit a car that did this because I couldn’t stop fast enough – no damage to the car, you’ll be happy to know (not incidentally, most drivers have very little concept of how fast bicyclists can travel and generally forget about them as soon as they are no longer in front of their car, suggesting that these incidents are not generally malicious, just self-centered and careless). I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Once otherwise perfectly reasonable people get behind the wheel, they seem to become oblivious to everything except for their own immediate goal. When the police encourage this behavior by turning a blind eye to “minor” traffic infractions, they are, IMHO, actively making our roads more dangerous.

[Steve Heard]

Tony

I support the suggestion that you and John have made about having a drop off lane. Iron Point IMO is never so full of cars that we can't sacrifice a lane for this purpose.

Nothing is wrong with the Davis model, but this city doesn't have the social attitude of Davis, nor the rolling hills that would make biking difficult for the average person.

(Yes, I knoweveryone should be and would be in better shape if they biked.)

The reality is, however, that today, without a drop off lane, parents still have to drop off their kids. If 2500 bikers, or 1500 or even 500 or 250 were using the bike lanes in front of the schools each morning, there might be some action taken to keep them clear. As it is, there are nearly 2500 kids, most of whom are getting dropped off for school, whether it's because they are lazy, parents are worried, for for whatever reason.

You are not going to force that many kids on to bikes, it's too far and too dangerous to walk, the buses don't have the capacity, and parents feel more secure driving their kids.

Those are the facts.

I am not advocating removal of the 'no stopping' signs. I am suggesting that you be more tolerant of parents.

I've often thought that the school should communicate with the parents and remind them to be cautious. I don't know if it would do any good, as most probably think they are cautious and good drivers.

Etiguette is important, but don't confuse necessity as rudeness or thoughtlessness.

[Terry]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Feb 12 2004, 07:43 AM)

I am not advocating removal of the 'no stopping' signs. I am suggesting that you be more tolerant of parents. Etiguette is important, but don't confuse necessity as rudeness or thoughtlessness.

I, for one, am unable to be tolerant of anyone who disobeys any law. It seems you're the one who is confused in that you feel your "necessity" allows you to disobey laws. I can't believe we're having this discussion............sure explains the way people drive around here!

[john]

Steve, just to clarify... I am not in favor of removing a current lane and making it a drop-off lane. Rather I am in favor of ripping out the sidewalk area that still has room for a drop-off lane. That area is never maintained (weeds every year, nobody maintains it), and there would still be room for a pedestrian sidewalk.

[Steve Heard]

Terry

If you are that intolerant, I'll not jaywalk in front of you.

So, the law is the law, and shouldn't be changed, right? Well, it used to be illegal to teach black people to read. It was punishable by death. Death to the scofflaws!

Point is, dropping off your kids at school should be more important to the world than keeping the road clear in case a bicyclist wants to cruise by, and it only happens twice a day, for a brief period of time.

John, removing a current lane is cheaper and can be done immediately.

One city official I know told me that when the school was planned, they warned the district that they would have these problems, but the district didn't listen, and now the city has to deal with the complaints.

[Stephen]

I think it is pretty obvious that school zones, drop-off locations, school buses, etc. have special laws for good reasons. Kids' safety. And safety of the parents, too.

Make whatever exceptions are needed. Special zones, designated traffic lanes during school hours, etc. We are talking about 2x/day - 5 days of the week. What is that.....maybe 7 -10 hours a week maximum? Is that too much a sacrifice for the community?

There is so much talk about public education, funding, test scores, teaching quality. But none if it means anything if the kids can't get to and from school safely. Only kids who are alive can learn.

[Terry]

Stevethedad says "f you are that intolerant, I'll not jaywalk in front of you.
So, the law is the law, and shouldn't be changed, right? "

Okay, you still don't seem to understand - I'm not saying a law shouldn't be changed, but that's not what you say you're doing. Have you collected petitions to present to City Council? Have you worked within the process to have the street signs changed? No, I didn't hear you say that. What I heard you say is that you DAILY disregard laws for your own convenience and you will continue to do so until, I guess, SOMEONE ELSE goes through the proper avenues to have the laws changed FOR you. In the meantime, it seems you continue to say you should be able to disregard existing law for your convenience. And now you include jaywalking in the list of things you will do for your convenience? Maybe that's not what you intended by that comment, and no I wouldn't run over a jaywalker, but if jaywalking is illegal, it should be enforced instead of excused. Ever hear of zero tolerance? Or I guess you'll allow your kids to try drugs or underage drinking if they can come up with a "convenience" factor associated with those acts. Or maybe they'll just tell you they don't think it should be against the law for them to do it, and thus they should be allowed to.....just once in awhile.....

Again, your sense of entitlement to disregard laws as you see fit sure explains the traffic problems around here.

[tony]

Stephan: I'm not clear as to what you are saying. Are you agreeing with stevethedad that the bike lanes should be used as a dropp-off zone? If so, you seem to be forgetting that they are there for the safety of bicyclists, including high school students riding to school. There is a perfectly safe (if inconvenient) place to drop off children now. It is on the school grounds and most parents use it. If you alllow drop-off in the bike lanes, there is no safe place left for the bicyclists. If you're interested in children's safety, shouldn't that include all of them? BTW, dropping off in the bike lane is also dangerous for the students walking to school, especially at the corner of Grover and IP.

I'm still shocked that there are so many parents who will not let their teenage childen walk to school in broad daylight. One wonders if there is not a connection betwen this thread and the Folsom boys in Hawaii one. If our kids -- and we're not talking about elementary, or even junior high school age here -- are so sheltered as to not be allowed to walk the streets of Folsom (a city with one of the nation's lowest violent crime rates), when are they ever going to learn how to effectively function in our world as independent adults? How will they ever learn to be responsible for their own safety? Or will they just magically be responsible when they turn 18 and leave home unescorted for the first time...perhaps on some graduation trip where they won't have the background or maturity to deal with their sudden lack of chaperones?

[Steve Heard]

Terry

You don't seem to understand. I am not saying that the law should be changed, you are. I am saying that people should tolerate one another for the two brief periods in each day, when the inadequate parking facilities at Folsom High are so crowded that traffic spills into the streets.

I've talked now with two city officials about this. We can tolerate each other, or we can have all go to the city council, with one side demanding the bike lanes and/or 'no stopping' signs removed, and the other saying parents are lazy, kids are sheltered and spoiled, and should be walking to school, rain or shine, so that the few bicyclists that use the lanes in front of the school, can use it whenever they want, without having to deal with people picking up their kids.

I could be wrong, but from what I've seen there appears to be more parents of FHS students than there are Iron Point bike lane users, and if numbers is all it takes, the parents would win.

I don't want that to happen, however. I want you to be able to use the bike lane, and be tolerant and empathetic to the parents who have to go through the pick up and drop off process.

And Terry, I didn't say that I daily disregard the laws. I said that my daughter is not going to be back at Folsom High until September, so I don't have to deal with it right now. I will have to, however, and hundreds more do on a daily basis.

As far as kids walking, if the school was in the neighborhood, I might let my high school age children walk. Walking to FHS is a lot different than walking through the neighborhood. You are suggesting that they walk, depending on the route, 3 to 4 miles, or about 45 minutes, in the rain, crossing Blue Ravine, East Bidwell, and/or Prairie City and Oak Avenue Parkway, and Iron Point, all major thouroughfares where people drive 45 mph, and more as they're rushing to work at that time, just so you could use the bike lane?

Get real.

[OctoberLily]

Steve,

It's no use arguing with Terry and whomever else about the parking, drop off and pick up situation at the high school - ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT'S REALLY LIKE TO HAVE A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT because they do not have kids who currently attend that school. They simply do not know and do not care what the high school parents have to deal with in order to get their kids to school safely. Give them some time and they will soon find out for themselves what it's like. Many local high schools have this problem.

The Blue Ravine abduction attempt of a 13 year old female Folsom Middle School student is a reality. The news was a reality check for many parents. We all think Folsom is this safe haven and we are immune to such crimes. Wake up people! We live in a society where pedophiles could live right next door to you and you would never know it. Look at Empire Ranch Elementary School where a "respected" teacher was just recently charged with sexual offenses against children. What's sick is that he has children of his own. Parents need to do what they have to in order to make sure their child is safe. It doesn't matter if their child is 1 yo or 17 yo - they all need to be protected from evil doers.

Those of you who seem to have such a hard time understanding the problem should take a drive in your car or a bicycle and try to make your way into the high school between the hours of 7:40 am and 3:00 p.m Monday through Thursday. That is the only way you will be able to know what it's really like to step in the shoes of a parent of a high school student.

As for riding the bus, the buses are overcrowded. They try to cram 3 kids in a 2 seater seat and they do not offer seat belts. As for walking, some of these kids live in American River Canyon, Empire Ranch and Briggs Ranch area so walking for them is a long haul especially when you are carrying a 40 lb backpack full of books. As for car pools, I do not know a parent who doesn't currently car pool with other parents. Believe me, high school parents are doing everything they can to make sure that their kids are getting to school and back safely. Do not be so quick to judge them.

Also, I've NEVER seen an adult on the bicycle lane during any of those hours. So for those of you who are complaining, I think you are just doing it to be a devil's advocate or just to argue for the heck of it.

Also, the inconveniene of time to anyone during the hours parents drop off and pick up their kids is short lived. Most parents are out of those roads by 7:55 am and 3:15 pm.

As for traffic accidents and traffic violators, from my observation, they are usually adults (women in SUV's with small children in the back). I've yet to see a teenager run a red light but I've seen a lot of "soccer moms" do it almost on a weekly basis.

[Terry]

There is still no justification for disobeying laws. Simple as that. The lengths you go to explain why you're breaking laws may have valid points, but I will simply state, restate and restate that laws are for the common good and must be obeyed.

While I may by sympathetic, which is different that being tolerant, I still cannot condone breaking laws for any reason. And yes, there is no further point in trying to convince me that there are good reasons for doing so. A law is a law is a law, and if you are trying to get it changed, good for you, but in the meantime, the laws are there to be obeyed, not broken.

[Candy Apple]

I AGREE TERRY!!!!!! That is why NO COMPROMISE on DL for illegal immigrants!!! No matter what, state, federal, city,----LAWS ARE LAWS!!!

No excuses, no exceptions!!

[tony]

QUOTE (OctoberLily @ Feb 13 2004, 02:03 PM)

Those of you who seem to have such a hard time understanding the problem should take a drive in your car or a bicycle and try to make your way into the high school between the hours of 7:40 am and 3:00 p.m Monday through Thursday.   Also, I've NEVER seen an adult on the bicycle lane during any of those hours.  So for those of you who are complaining, I think you are just doing it to be a devil's advocate or just to argue for the heck of it.   Also, the inconveniene of time to anyone during the hours parents drop off and pick up their kids is short lived.  Most parents are out of those roads by 7:55 am and 3:15 pm.

For two years, three days per week, I biked past the school heading westbound during the morning drop-off, and for the past 6 months, I've done it eastbound twice per week. And I must say that, for some reason, I have found that the incidence of parents stopping in the eastbound bike lane in the morning has dropped dramatically from last year. However, prior to the recent drop, it was almost a daily occurence that some parent would stop in front of me in the bike lane. It is not a hypothetical situation. It is not just an inconvenience. It is a serious hazard to anyone trying to use the bike lane for its intended purpose.

I also almost always see at least one other bicyclist on IP in the morning, but like all of you, I'm only in front of the school for a couple of minutes, so I really have no idea how many cyclists use the lanes, and neither do you. The difference is that I'm looking for them. I do, as noted in the first sentence, know that I am not being a devil's advocate. I am, however, a bicycle advocate, in case you all hadn't figured it out by now.

I'll try one last time to rephrase the points that Terry and I have been trying to make. Stopping in the bike lane is illegal. Period. If you don't like it, feel free to try to change it, but I'd highly recommend more positive and productive use of your time. Stopping in the bike lane is a hazard to bicyclists (students and adults) who have a legal right to use the road, and this part of the road is designated for their exclusive use (with some exceptions, of which dropping off students is not one). The two drop-off/pick-up times each day are the most critical times to have the bike lanes open because that is when there are the most bicyclists (students and adults in the AM, students in the PM) and pedestrians. Did you ever consider that maybe the reason there aren't more bicylists in the bike lanes is -- as you've all so convincingly argued -- because all but the most intrepid cyclists are afraid to ride by or to the high school during the drop-off/pick-up periods because so many parents have chosen to ignore the laws that are meant to protect their children and neighbors? The argument that there are many more parents dropping off children than there are bicyclists (while certainly true)...so the few cyclists should tolerate the scofflaw masses who endanger them sounds suspiciously like a playground bully's unspoken "might makes right" argument. The fact is that those many parents are a hazard to those few cyclists (who, not incidentally, are making the commute easier for the rest of you by eliminating cars from the road), while those few cyclists and their designated lane are nothing more than an inconvenience for the parental masses.

There is a problem with the drop-off and pick-up of students at the high school. There are also significant safety issues, most of them related to a complete discregard for traffic laws by many, most notably the universal flaunting of the 25 mph school zone speed limit on IP (I've yet to hear any good rationalizations for that, but there must be some, because absolutely no one obeys the school zone limit), entering intersections with no place to go causing gridlock, and, of course, stopping in front of "No Stoppping" signs.

There are a number of things that can be done to improve the situation. We've discussed a few of them: encouraging more students to carpool, walk, bike and take the bus; building drop-off lanes on IP; building an overcrossing so students don't have to cross 8 lanes of traffic to walk to the school. The additional exit driveway and revised internal circulation have significantly improved the situation at the Grover entrance. On the other hand, choosing to disobey laws that are inconvenient is not being part of the solution. In the words of the tolerant, it's called bad driver etiquette. To the more legalistically-minded, it's called breaking the law and endangering the lives of your neighbors and their children (and probably your own).