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Ms. Teaz: Lingerie Shop on Sutter Street


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#616 Chad Vander Veen

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 02:27 PM

Since this thread is absurdly long, here's a pointless post to make it longer.

#617 bishmasterb

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 02:49 PM

QUOTE(c_vanderveen @ Nov 1 2004, 02:27 PM)
Since this thread is absurdly long, here's a pointless post to make it longer.

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You clearly have no respect for the sanctity of this forum.

#618 Steve Heard

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 03:09 PM

"This goes back to a point made earlier (Forumreader, I believe?) that just because there are other bad things in our society that may be as bad or worse than a sex shop, that doesn't mean you have to be silent about the sex shop."

There's the rub for me.

I don't think a lingerie shop is bad for our society. I don't think an adult novelty shop is bad for our society. It is what it is.

What it is NOT is a porn shop, or sex shop. What is a sex shop anyway?

I'd rather six lingerie shops on one block of Sutter, than 6 bars.


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#619 Cloud9

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 04:08 PM

QUOTE(nomoser @ Nov 1 2004, 08:59 AM)
What this seems to come down to is a difference in the drawing of lines.  For example, assume that instead of Ms. Teaz, the proposed new establishment on Sutter Street was a neo-Nazi, white-supremecist recruiting agency.  The "business plan" the group submits makes it clear that their purpose is to "educate" the community of Folsom on various "issues" relating to non-white, non-Christian peoples.  I would guess that Cloud and Bish and others would stand shoulder to shoulder with me in opposition to this establishment before it ever opened its doors.  Why?  Because we have certain values that tell us that the work that organization would do would not be good for our community (or any community, for that matter).  It crosses a mental line that we have drawn.

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That doesn't cross my mental line. I wouldn't like its opening, but I wouldn't attempt to have it stopped. Nor would I attempt to have a satanic church opening at that location stopped. Again, would not be my preference....

QUOTE(nomoser @ Nov 1 2004, 08:59 AM)
On the other side of that line, there are lots of businesses that open every day that, although I don't particularly care for what they sell, I would never openly oppose.  For instance, I don't particularly care for Precious Moments figurines (no offense to those who do like them ... they are cute and all, just not my thing), but you won't see me attempting to influence a prospective Precious Moments business owner to locate his or her business somewhere else.  Why?  Because I am certain (at least, fairly certain ... j/k) that the sale of Precious Moments figurines would not be harmful to our community.

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How do we know? Who's to say? Maybe Folsomnites have a weakness for such figurines leading all of us to purchase them and go bankrupt. smile.gif Or maybe the substance or imagery of such figurines is found to be damaging in the future. smile.gif

QUOTE(nomoser @ Nov 1 2004, 08:59 AM)
In the case of Ms. Teaz, although it may not fall as far over my line as would a neo-Nazi recruiting center, it does fall on the side of my line where I believe that it does have a potential to harm our community.  That being the case, I feel that I have a right, if not an obligation, to state my concers and oppositions, even if it means suggesting the business locate elsewhere.

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On this we agree. Isn't that freedom of speech?

QUOTE(nomoser @ Nov 1 2004, 08:59 AM)
And to the repeted argument that someone who hasn't viewed pornography cannot really speak to its effect, let me say this.  I was an early user of the Internet (although I didn't invent it ... that was Al Gore ...), using it back in the early 90s when it was still text-based.  I can remember the first time I downloaded Netscape and was amazed at the functionality.  To assume that someone who is so familiar with the Internet and has used it for more than 10 years does not know what pornography is, is a pretty wild assumption with little basis in reality.  I don't, however, believe that it is necessary to go and buy a Penthouse magazine to know what pornography is or to have an opinion as to its effects.  Nor do I believe that pornography, like art, needs to be really studied and absorbed in order for it to be understood.  Forget that!

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I partially agree with you here nomo. Let me try to draw another poor analogy to see if I can express it properly.

If little green men (that reproduced without sex) landed on earth and we asked them what's their opinion on pornography, I don't think we'd get an answer. They would have to be exposed to some degree to have the discussion. And while there is a dictionary definition of what constitutes pornography (as shown below) the interpretation of what that is, is disputed.

por·nog·ra·phy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pôr-ngr-f)
n.
1. Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.
2. The presentation or production of this material.
3. Lurid or sensational material: “Recent novels about the Holocaust have kept Hitler well offstage [so as] to avoid the... pornography of the era” (Morris Dickstein).

For some naked imagery is pornography (maybe for them it causes arousal and they view it as the primary purpose).

One can always skirt or circumvent whatever definiton is derived at by calling it art, education, a movie line/story, etc. making its 'primary purpose' something else.

The reason we all just jump into the discussion immediately is because we not only have different values, morality, etc., but we also bring to the table different perceptions as to what constitutes pornography.

QUOTE(nomoser @ Nov 1 2004, 08:59 AM)
I don't, however, believe that it is necessary to go and buy a Penthouse magazine to know what pornography is or to have an opinion as to its effects.

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You may not need to buy a Penthouse mag, but you need some exposure and understanding as to what it is.

It would be difficult for us to have a discussion on zyblocks, unless we had a common understanding as to what a zyblock is, a picture of a zyblock may be needed to help in that understanding, etc.

It's difficult for me to extrapolate knowing what pornography is, to establishing an opinion as to its effects. Well, I'm sure we can all arrive at opinions, but some would be more valuable than others, and not because it's the preferred view on the subject.

Let me try the zyblocks again. We can all learn what one is, and form an opinion as to what is effects on people are, but the opinion of a zyblock expert that has studied the effects of zyblocks on people in a scientific setting, would be an opinion that is more valuable, than that of somewhat with limited knowledge in the area. After all, isn't that why lawyers rely on expert witnesses?
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#620 Orangetj

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 04:15 PM

I prefer my Zyblocks roasted, but some like them boiled. Personally, I think those boilers are ruining this here town.

#621 old soldier

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 04:33 PM

by gosh this her post is going on and on. I think whats going to happen is like in the old proibition days where a bunch of ladies went in the bars with axes and broke all the beer barrels. what were going to hear about is a gang who is all worked up from reading about them on myfolsom.com that goes in there and throws all the bad stuff in the lake.

then they can have a rally and tar and feather the owners and run them over to orangevale on a rail. now that would get old folsom on the map. maybe that tough talking candidate starskey will take charge...

wonder if they are going to have a ribbon cutting ceremony when they open up like all the other chamber businesses..

#622 bordercolliefan

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 06:59 PM

StevetheDad

Actually, I agree with you that we are no longer talking about a "sex shop" (my shorthand for a shop devoted to selling hard core sex toys). I believe that the evidence suggests the ORIGINAL intent for the store was more like a sex shop, a la Spartacus. I am satisfied that with the public outcry and the oversight of the City Council, the Dafours have significantly watered down what they plan to carry in the shop.

At this point, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt... unless I hear reports of them selling stuff different from what we've recently been led to believe. So, I think we're on the same page.

My point was just that when we understood the Dafours were planning a more hard core shop, we certainly had the result to express our dismay -- regardless of the fact that there may be worse societal ills we haven't yet solved.

#623 Steve Heard

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 07:38 PM

QUOTE(bordercolliefan @ Nov 1 2004, 06:59 PM)
StevetheDad

  Actually, I agree with you that we are no longer talking about a "sex shop" (my shorthand for a shop devoted to selling hard core sex toys).  I believe that the evidence suggests the ORIGINAL intent for the store was more like a sex shop, a la Spartacus.  I am satisfied that with the public outcry and the oversight of the City Council, the Dafours have significantly watered down what they plan to carry in the shop. 

  At this point, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt... unless I hear reports of them selling stuff different from what we've recently been led to believe.  So, I think we're on the same page. 

  My point was just that when we understood the Dafours were planning a more hard core shop, we certainly had the result to express our dismay -- regardless of the fact that there may be worse societal ills we haven't yet solved.

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Hey Border

Remember, I was there and visited them before the outcry. They NEVER had the intent to make the store a 'sex shop'. In fact, they were always mindful of the rules that a max of 25% of their revenue could come from adult novelty items.
The space they have devoted to it is considerably less than that. The room appears to be no more than a 12 x 12, if that.

Also, they realized early on that Sparacus was a poor comparison, but their opponents latched on to that and wouldn't let go. They are nothing like Spartacus.

Just as a political party would, the 'concerned citizens' will take credit for the absence of pornography, as if they were responsible, when the Dufour's never ever intended to sell porn in the first place. While they can tell people, 'See we're not purveyors of porn. We told you so', the righteous and concerned will say, "See by banding together and letting our opinions be known, we prevented those perverts from selling their filth".

I am not proud of what the city council, chamber and concerned citizens have done. I am more embarrassed by it.

We have real, serious threats to our families, in the form of drug and alcohol abusem, violence and ignorance. Those issues are ignored.

When the Chief of Police spoke at the Healthy Families Forum, he remarked that he wished the people who were at the City Council meeting had been at the Healthy Families Forum, instead.

It's as though the people of this city want to 'save face', or put on airs for visitors.

We have sleaze, porn, homelessness, racism, drug and alcohol problems with kids, but as long as the tourists don't wander into a store that has sex toys in the back, they'll think we're better than that.

You didn't keep porn out of the community, it's availabe within walking distance of Sutter Street. You (collectively) saved face for your own personal satisfaction.

That is sad.

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#624 bordercolliefan

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 10:04 PM

Actually, Steve, you visited them AFTER the outcry.

I started this thread after seeing an article in The Bee about the controversy that had erupted among Sutter Street merchants. By this time, the questionable "Business Plan" and reference to Spartacus had already circulated. Based on your posts, you visited them sometime after that.

I know you buy the Dafours' explanation that the business plan, the reference to Spartacus, etc. were just "mistakes." I don't buy it. Maybe as a former trial attorney I've become cynical about people's "explanations."


#625 Cloud9

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 10:31 PM

Isn't being cynical a requirement for law school? smile.gif
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#626 Steve Heard

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 11:10 PM

QUOTE(bordercolliefan @ Nov 1 2004, 10:04 PM)
Actually, Steve, you visited them AFTER the outcry. 

I started this thread after seeing an article in The Bee about the controversy that had erupted among Sutter Street merchants.  By this time, the questionable "Business Plan" and reference to Spartacus had already circulated.  Based on your posts, you visited them sometime after that. 

I know you buy the Dafours' explanation that the business plan, the reference to Spartacus, etc. were just "mistakes."  I don't buy it.  Maybe as a former trial attorney I've become cynical about people's "explanations."

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By 'outcry', I am talking about the display put on at the City Council meeting last week, while a few truly concerned citizens were next door learning about the threat of drugs and alcohol in the community.


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#627 bordercolliefan

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 08:35 AM

Okay. Then of course you are correct.

Steve, I am very concerned about the tales of rampant drug and alcohol abuse among Folsom's teens (though my girls at ages 4 and 5 aren't quite there yet). I know you are a huge advocate of education programs. I was also surprised to find that my daughter's elementary school was doing a full week on anti-drug education ("Red Ribbon week").

Are you aware of studies that demonstrate that anti-drug education is effective in reducing drug experimentation? My fear is that too much immersion in drug information (i.e., starting in 1st grade?!) may send the message that drugs are MORE widely used and accepted than kids might otherwise think. --If you think it's worth it, we can put this in a new topic.

#628 locke

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 04:34 PM

[quote=stevethedad,Nov 1 2004, 07:38 PM]

We have sleaze, porn, homelessness, racism, drug and alcohol problems with kids, but as long as the tourists don't wander into a store that has sex toys in the back, they'll think we're better than that.



[B] Stevethedad,
contrary to what you stated, Folsom children do not have problems with sleaze, porn, homelessness, racism, drugs, and alcohol as compared to most of our neighboring communities. You should be grateful that Folsom is such an ideal community to raise children.
You say that there are rampant problems with the children of Folsom that need to be addressed, but you have no interest in adressing the potential problems brought on by this store. The tourists wandering into the back room and thinking less of us is not a concern here. It is about preserving our historic community and our wonderful town.


#629 elvisff

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 05:36 PM

[quote=locke,Nov 2 2004, 04:34 PM]
[quote=stevethedad,Nov 1 2004, 07:38 PM]

We have sleaze, porn, homelessness, racism, drug and alcohol problems with kids, but as long as the tourists don't wander into a store that has sex toys in the back, they'll think we're better than that.
[B] Stevethedad,
contrary to what you stated, Folsom children do not have problems with sleaze, porn, homelessness, racism, drugs, and alcohol as compared to most of our neighboring communities. You should be grateful that Folsom is such an ideal community to raise children.
You say that there are rampant problems with the children of Folsom that need to be addressed, but you have no interest in adressing the potential problems brought on by this store. The tourists wandering into the back room and thinking less of us is not a concern here. It is about preserving our historic community and our wonderful town.

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[/quote]

I think you would be surprised at the amount of drug use, legal and illegal, and alcoholism within Folsom.

#630 forumreader

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 06:22 PM

And who ever said that we are limited in the number of community concerns we can address? Let's address them all.

The only way I have ever looked at this lingerie shop issue is as something comparable to the family filter on my computer or V-chip on a TV. There are certain things that I do not consider to be a positive influence, and I don't want them in my home. Likewise, many of us don't want certain influences on the prize street of Folsom.




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