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#61 eVader

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 07:50 AM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 18 2010, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The problem is, it has not been established that the same rules apply, and as mentioned before, there is no adequate shoulder.

By the way, if there was, I'd be on it. I so prefer the decomposed granite or even smooth dirt over paved roadway, but prefer paved roadway over rocks, pits, etc.


Ah ok, so if you don't like the rules you make your own... great, brilliant. ARP and Folsom Parks and Recreation have posted rules of the trail which are very similar to hopefully make the trails (ARP or Folsom's great in-town trail system) enjoyable and safe for all. Agree there are narrow shoulder areas that should have been wider (poor planning, enviro rules or budget???) but perhaps it will someday be improved.

Have you bothered to look at them or are you stuck on "don't care because some sections have narrow shoulders"?

#62 ducky

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:04 AM

QUOTE (eVader @ May 19 2010, 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ah ok, so if you don't like the rules you make your own... great, brilliant. ARP and Folsom Parks and Recreation have posted rules of the trail which are very similar to hopefully make the trails (ARP or Folsom's great in-town trail system) enjoyable and safe for all. Agree there are narrow shoulder areas that should have been wider (poor planning, enviro rules or budget???) but perhaps it will someday be improved.

Have you bothered to look at them or are you stuck on "don't care because some sections have narrow shoulders"?


I don't think of it as making up your own rules. It's just that the rules can't be observed because there aren't always shoulders to be on. I really try and stay out of the way, but I don't think it means pedestrians are relegated to the shoulders. It's just not always safe and sometimes there just isn't a shoulder to be on because brush is right up to the trail. I don't think people are expected to get lacerations running through blackberry brambles and stickers.

I use my own judgment and find the safest place to be on a trail for everyone, which sometimes means switching sides of the trail, getting off on a shoulder when possible for two bicyclists riding side to side, whatever it takes to be safe. I prefer to be off the pavement on a wide decomposed granite trail facing the oncoming bicyclists , but those places on trails seem to be few and far between.

#63 MSgt

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:08 AM

QUOTE (supermom @ May 19 2010, 06:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...It would be great to see brake check area on that portion of trail...

And an occasional radar.



#64 supermom

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:14 AM

QUOTE (MSgt @ May 19 2010, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cant see you pic. sorry.

#65 MSgt

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:28 AM

Just because you smoke pot doesn't mean you own the bicycle trail
Yesterday I had to stop my bike for the 4-5 pot smokers to move from standing in the center of the bike path passing a joint, smoking and joking. They made it clear that they didn't appreciate my interruption. This was on the rail trail extension to Natoma Station.

#66 chris v

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:35 AM

QUOTE (MSgt @ May 19 2010, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just because you smoke pot doesn't mean you own the bicycle trail
Yesterday I had to stop my bike for the 4-5 pot smokers to move from standing in the center of the bike path passing a joint, smoking and joking. They made it clear that they didn't appreciate my interruption. This was on the rail trail extension to Natoma Station.


Should have knocked that $hit out of their hands...

#67 tony

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:16 AM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 18 2010, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am a biker, jogger and walker on the trails. My issue is that there seems to be a big push from bike advocates to list rules, and the rules always seem to favor the biker's right to the road, relegating all others to the rocky, dirty, crap studded, weedy, uneven, narrow and occasionally/potentially snake infested shoulders.

If we had wide, flat, maintained shoulders it would be different, but we don't.

I ran the Run with Nature last weekend. With notices posted allover the trails and with almost 2 thousand runners, there were bikers trying to maneuver through the crowd instead of pulling off or walking until everyone passed.

It's as if they were saying, 'Nope, this is a bike trail made for bikers and I'm not going to give in to runners.'

While we call them 'bike trails', they are actually meant for everyone.

Steve: Perhaps a clarification is in order. When I say that the ARP rules are being adopted in Folsom, I'm focusing on the ride right, walk left part. The FFP web site does state that pedestrians should use the shoulder, when available. If it's not wide enough or smooth enough, then clearly that would not apply.

There were motorcyclists on the path during the run with nature??? ohmy.gif Was the trail closed for the event? Were there signs placed appropriately to warn other users? Generally it is not closed for events, and participants are warned as such. But certainly, it would be courteous and prudent of cyclists to let the mob of runners pass instead of trying to wend their way through it.

#68 Steve Heard

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:16 AM

QUOTE (eVader @ May 19 2010, 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ah ok, so if you don't like the rules you make your own... great, brilliant. ARP and Folsom Parks and Recreation have posted rules of the trail which are very similar to hopefully make the trails (ARP or Folsom's great in-town trail system) enjoyable and safe for all. Agree there are narrow shoulder areas that should have been wider (poor planning, enviro rules or budget???) but perhaps it will someday be improved.

Have you bothered to look at them or are you stuck on "don't care because some sections have narrow shoulders"?


No, you misunderstand. I am saying that city officials have told me that the same rules do not apply to our trails as to ARP, and the bikers who use ARP claim that they do apply.

I am also saying that I'd PREFER to run on the shoulders if they were safe and practical.

You seem to be saying, 'too bad if the shoulders are unsafe, too narrow or non-existent, stay off the paved section because only bikers should be allowed on the paved surfaces'.

If the rules are posted, I have not seen them in the nearly 9 years I've been using the trails.

I've put a call in to some folks at the City who should be able to give a definitive answer, and of course, not being a scofflaw, I'll do my best to comply.

QUOTE (ducky @ May 19 2010, 09:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think of it as making up your own rules. It's just that the rules can't be observed because there aren't always shoulders to be on. I really try and stay out of the way, but I don't think it means pedestrians are relegated to the shoulders. It's just not always safe and sometimes there just isn't a shoulder to be on because brush is right up to the trail. I don't think people are expected to get lacerations running through blackberry brambles and stickers.

I use my own judgment and find the safest place to be on a trail for everyone, which sometimes means switching sides of the trail, getting off on a shoulder when possible for two bicyclists riding side to side, whatever it takes to be safe. I prefer to be off the pavement on a wide decomposed granite trail facing the oncoming bicyclists , but those places on trails seem to be few and far between.


Exactly.

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#69 Steve Heard

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:22 AM

QUOTE (tony @ May 19 2010, 10:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Steve: Perhaps a clarification is in order. When I say that the ARP rules are being adopted in Folsom, I'm focusing on the ride right, walk left part. The FFP web site does state that pedestrians should use the shoulder, when available. If it's not wide enough or smooth enough, then clearly that would not apply.

There were motorcyclists on the path during the run with nature??? ohmy.gif Was the trail closed for the event? Were there signs placed appropriately to warn other users? Generally it is not closed for events, and participants are warned as such. But certainly, it would be courteous and prudent of cyclists to let the mob of runners pass instead of trying to wend their way through it.

Tony, this is a good example of how people are interpreting the rules. When people hear that the same rules apply as on ARP, they tend to believe that ALL rules apply, and they get angry when they seem pedestrians on the trail.

I see moms with their kids in strollers on the trail, and I can't imagine forcing them to use the rocky shoulders for the benefit of those who seem to be trying to qualify for the Amgen tour.

No, the trails weren't closed, but there were warning signs everywhere. These biker/cyclist seemed to be riding up the trail and forcing the runners to go around them in an act of defiance as if they are unwilling to compromise for anyone.

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#70 tony

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:38 AM

QUOTE (Terry @ May 18 2010, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Very few broken laws result in deaths, but scofflaws are scofflaws and if I were to name the most observed group of scofflaws it would be bicyclists. I observed bicyclist disregard for rules of the road at least once each day I'm out on the roads as a driver or pedestrian. Thus the outrage for scofflaws of the bicycling kind.

Of those 40,000 deaths I noted, very few are "accidents". And that's not to mention the hundreds of thousands injured every year. The vast majority are due to driver error (distracted driving being high on the list) or outright illegal behavior (running lights, speeding, etc.) Last time I checked, 40,000 was a pretty big number -- the equivalent of one jumbo jet every three days. Imagine if we had a jumbo jet crashing and killing 300 people every three days. Then there would be some outrage! But, hey, since they only happen in ones and twos, I guess it's OK.

Really, you observe scofflaw cyclists at least once a day. I do too. But exactly how does that compare to the 20% of motorists I observe talking on cell phones illegally every day? Or the dozens who fail to stop for right turns on red? Or the 90%+ who are speeding? Recent research shows that talking on the phone while driving (hands free or not) has the same affect on your driving skills as driving under the influence. Does that warrant outrage?

I do agree with you on one account: scofflaws are scofflaws, and as a cyclists, I am as annoyed as you about their behavior, but your outrage is misdirected. Not once has a scofflaw cyclist caused me any harm or even more than a moment's delay. By contrast, I wasted an hour of my life this morning cleaning up three broken beer bottles and changing two flat tires on the Oak Parkway Trail because some idiots thought it would be funny to ruin someone's morning (not entirely ruined, as I got a closeup view of a red-tailed hawk during my delay) by splattering glass over 100 feet of bike path. And almost as outrageous was the fact that not one of the dozen or so people who passed me while I was cleaning it up by hand offered to help (actually, one cyclist did, but said he was on his way to work -- like I wasn't!)

#71 eVader

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 11:04 AM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 19 2010, 09:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Tony, this is a good example of how people are interpreting the rules. When people hear that the same rules apply as on ARP, they tend to believe that ALL rules apply, and they get angry when they seem pedestrians on the trail.

I see moms with their kids in strollers on the trail, and I can't imagine forcing them to use the rocky shoulders for the benefit of those who seem to be trying to qualify for the Amgen tour.

No, the trails weren't closed, but there were warning signs everywhere. These biker/cyclist seemed to be riding up the trail and forcing the runners to go around them in an act of defiance as if they are unwilling to compromise for anyone.

I don't see your point. Maybe you have been done in by a scofflaw cyclist but not all are that way. Nowhere did I say the above. I said per the rules referenced many times, peds are to use the shoulder facing traffic when safely possible.

THOSE are the rules as stated by the ARP and the Folsom P&R websites. Your responses are exactly what I said.. dont care, I will whine and cry about the narrow sections (not all are narrow) and quote unsubstanciated "city workers" vs. what the Folsom P&R site states for a fact. Dude, when you run along the trail whether on the ARP or in town that is not safe for you to run on, use the paved portion but keep as left as safely possible so cyclists and other trail users can enjoy their activities...safely. This is what the rules and common sense dictate.

Just like snowmobilers vs. X-country skiers, boaters vs. PWCs, kayaks vs. motorized vessels, runners vs. cyclists, hikers vs. drivers there will likely be a rift between different activities sharing the same resources. Sometimes it is a rift based on fact, stereotypes or just being antagonistic to each other. Better to find the common ground, follow the rules and work with what you can.

Life is short.... enjoy the ride, hike, run ;-)

#72 Steve Heard

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 12:48 PM

QUOTE (eVader @ May 19 2010, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see your point. Maybe you have been done in by a scofflaw cyclist but not all are that way. Nowhere did I say the above. I said per the rules referenced many times, peds are to use the shoulder facing traffic when safely possible.

THOSE are the rules as stated by the ARP and the Folsom P&R websites. Your responses are exactly what I said.. dont care, I will whine and cry about the narrow sections (not all are narrow) and quote unsubstanciated "city workers" vs. what the Folsom P&R site states for a fact. Dude, when you run along the trail whether on the ARP or in town that is not safe for you to run on, use the paved portion but keep as left as safely possible so cyclists and other trail users can enjoy their activities...safely. This is what the rules and common sense dictate.

Please show me on the Folsom Park and Rec site where it says the rules are the same as ARP.

I just talked to Robert Goss, Director of Folsom Parks and Recreation. He is a friend and what I'd call a hardcore bicycle enthusiast. In the past couple of years he's ridden down the coast to the LA area and through the Pacific Northwest. He races and rides for fun as well. He knows the Folsom trails as well as anyone.

Here are some the points he made:
    To his knowledge, there has never been an adoption of the operating rules and procedures of ARP to the Folsom trails. They want to be similar, but as I said, it is not always practical.
      There 3 different government agencies mainting and operating the trails: Sac County runs ARP, the State Parks are responsible for the trails on either side of Lake Natoma up to Beals Point, and the City of Folsom handle the rest of the city's trails. There has been no coordination of the rules between the 3 agencies.
        Some trail sections are older than others and were built by different parties witih different standards.
          Sometimes because of money, sometimes because of who built them, sometimes because it wasn't required, and sometimes because of the topography, some sections of the trail were built with little or no shoulder. To put a pedestrian shoulder on the Oak Forest section, for example, would have required the removal protected oak trees. The trees have more value, so no shoulder was built.
            Although these trails meet the state Class I bike trail standards, they are in fact multi-use trails.
              Ours are generally narrower narrower than ARP.
                [list]
              One major issue is speed. Because our trails are narrower, often lacking shoulders, curvy and hilly, speeds should be kept at or below 15 mph. The trails are not suitable for hardcore training, but for recreational and commute biking.
                Facilities have to be shared. Because of the differing width of trails, shoulders and topography, this is a shared trail. Perhaps the 'share the road' signs with the silhouette of a bicyclist on it, which encourages motorists to be aware and follow the law, and respecting cyclists' right to the roadway should be adopted for the trails, only this time, with a silhouette of a pedestrian, so the bikers will realize that they don't own it, but must share it.
                  He was unaware of locations of signage displaying the rules, and reminded me again that he is unaware of a formal adoption of rules.
                    He has stopped his bike to talk to pedestrians about the benefits of walking to the left. It is a matter of awareness of why this is in their best interests, and he acknowledges that it is counter-intuitive, as we are raised to travel on the right.

                    We also discussed the issues and dangers we face from pedestrians when riding, such as the inattentive dog-walker, or the moms with large strollers walking 2 abreast, or the families who might take a Sunday stroll and spread out across the trail.

                    This isn't about whining or making one's own rules. It is about a lack of adopted rules, no signage citing any such rules, awareness of pedestrians that walking on the left is safer, conditions of the trail, and misunderstanding by some bikers who believe those who are not following the rules are inconsiderate scofflaws who should 'get in the dirt' as they put it, rather than people just out enjoying the trail system.

                    As has been said time and again, common courtesy would go along way.

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                    #73 MrsTuffPaws

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                    Posted 19 May 2010 - 01:14 PM

                    QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 19 2010, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
                    As has been said time and again, common courtesy would go along way.


                    Common courtesy would go a long way. But it's hard to be courteous if you don't know if you should go left or right when meeting someone head on, hence the need for posted rules.

                    #74 eVader

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                    Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:24 PM

                    Have you bothered to click the two links for Folsom P&R trail rules and ARP rules? They are very similar. Not exact copy of course but have common rules in regards to speed limits, must control your bike/feet/horse/rollerblades/dog/child, peds on left facing traffic, on dirt shoulder (noting wherever possible to do so otherwise on left most side of paved trail).

                    If around the tight corners where there is little or no shoulder a ped was on the paved trail and a rider approached I would expect the jogger(s) to move to the far left and the cyclist to slow and pass near the center line with a courteous hello. It is educating the mixed use public of the needs of each other. Months ago there was a thread on why runners use the asphalt bike lanes vs. the perfectly good concrete sidewalk/trails a yard or so away. Answer made perfect sense. Concrete kills a runners joints and how much better it is to use asphalt or dirt trails. See? Major disconnect resolved with education and understanding. Now why runners in the roadway prefer to wear dark colors, little or no reflectors or lights when it is dark is beyond me but I am thinking Darwin candidate for the moment.

                    Is there room for improvement as you suggest? Absolutely, starting with consolidating rules where it makes sense and providing signage.

                    Agree with your point that cyclists often take the ARP or trails in Folsom for granted as their personal expressways for race training or thrills. Their rudeness during the Nature Run was inexcusable just like a recreational runner shouldn't interrupt a cycling criterium. Nature Run organizers did a great job last weekend and should add signs alerting everyone to be considerate and stay out of the way of participants. Shouldn't need to be said but obviously it does.

                    A CHP moto cop with radar can quickly fix speed issues. I have seen law enforcement shooting radar in years past and this would be valid case of safety vs. revenue generation Lance Jr with his carbon fibre bike will learn quick enough. Even better is find a code where they could also ticket the families walking 6 wide and clueless, the dog off leash or on leash but across the trail or anyone else not following rules.

                    Rain has stopped...time to hit the trails on foot on on bike.

                    #75 tony

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                    Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:37 PM

                    QUOTE (eVader @ May 19 2010, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
                    Have you bothered to click the two links for Folsom P&R trail rules and ARP rules? They are very similar. Not exact copy of course but have common rules in regards to speed limits, must control your bike/feet/horse/rollerblades/dog/child, peds on left facing traffic, on dirt shoulder (noting wherever possible to do so otherwise on left most side of paved trail).

                    Please provide the links.




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