99 replies to this topic

[cw68]

 
being able to smell an occasional waft of smoke, while unpleasant, is not the same as working in a restaurant and being exposed to second-hand smoke.
 
its not a perfect world and we can't make it so with thick blankets of laws.  we end up just limiting our own freedom in the end.

My sentiments exactly!

[checkmate3001]

I don't think you understand my point. If you live in an apartment complex and you are bothered by smoke, your first thought shouldn't be "To hell with this guy, smoking should be illegal". Instead, you should contact the manager of the apartment complex and demand that you or your neighbor be moved to a different apartment where the smoke won't bother you.

I am afraid if you get your way, you will find that in the future someone will be pointing the finger at you and saying "This person is doing something I don't like and should NOT have to live next door to. It needs to be made illegal!"
 

Checkmate, I think you just don't get it.

 

I found these to be the most relevant outtakes from your post:

 

<< They all smoke outside because they know it smells and they don't want their apartment to smell like cigarettes or their belongings to be covered in nicotine and stink.>>

 

So instead they go on the balcony and inflict smoke on their neighbors whose apartments will smell like cigarettes?  I don't get your point.

 

<<Smoking is not a crime.>>

 

Yes, it can be, depending on where it takes place.  Laws are made to decide where that is and isn't.

 

<< a problem that doesn't exist >>

 

You really don't get it, do you?  It's not just a minor nuisance if someone is living next to a balcony smoker, it's a major deal to the other person's life.  Many people cannot abide being around smoke whatsoever, and it's indeed a problem when smoke invades their airspace.

 

<< Let's instead learn to live with those around us.>>

 

Someone who is forced to smell and breathe in someone else's smoke should not be forced to "live with it", especially when it is a permanently recurring situation.

 

You are offering up the classic smoker's argumentation, and it is lame, and that's exactly why laws are needed, because otherwise the concerns of most people would be poo-pooed.

[Rich_T]

So how much longer will I be able to barbecue in my back yard before it's banned?

Uh, forever?

 

It's not poisoning people, is it?

[checkmate3001]

Farting in a public place is legal, unless some NIMBY's start a push to make that illegal as well. Although one's flatulence is offensive, it is (here it comes) SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE. Meaning, everyone farts. You couldn't possibly try to make it illegal... unless, at some point in the future, farting was no longer socially acceptable.
 

To checkmate; telling people to just deal with your smoke is like me saying just deal with my farts. Would you like it it I constantly farted in your face? Probably not right? That's what it's like dealing with the stench of smokers, it's the same as being farted on.

[Rich_T]

I know someone who rented a non-smoking house.  her guests would step outside in the backyard to smoke a cigarette occasionally (just as when I have a dinner guest who smokes, they go outside to light up).  the neighbors complained bitterly to the owner of the rental about smelling the smoke at their house. 

 

being able to smell an occasional waft of smoke, while unpleasant, is not the same as working in a restaurant and being exposed to second-hand smoke.  I am certain each and every one of us is exposed to much greater risk from the air quality we all experience in summer during an inversion, not to mention the random wildfire.

 

its not a perfect world and we can't make it so with thick blankets of laws.  we end up just limiting our own freedom in the end.

 

If people would honor the law and their promises, there wouldn't be an issue.  The renter shouldn't have allowed smoking on the property of an owner who didn't want smoking.  That being said, it wouldn't be an issue unless it became a commonplace occurrence, which is what you make it seem like.

 

As for your own house, if smoke were bothering your neighbors, then your dinner guests should light up indoors, instead of making the smoke into someone else's issue.  If your neighbors are OK with it, then fine.

I don't think you understand my point. If you live in an apartment complex and you are bothered by smoke, your first thought shouldn't be "To hell with this guy, smoking should be illegal". Instead, you should contact the manager of the apartment complex and demand that you or your neighbor be moved to a different apartment where the smoke won't bother you.

I am afraid if you get your way, you will find that in the future someone will be pointing the finger at you and saying "This person is doing something I don't like and should NOT have to live next door to. It needs to be made illegal!"
 

 

Doubtful.  This is about smoking and only smoking, and only then when others are being affected.

 

My first thought in an apartment complex is "I shouldn't have to deal with smoke entering my apartment".

 

My takeaway thus far is that a segment of society will persist in defending the right of smokers to invade the airspace of non-smokers.  Fortunately, I do not have to deal with that where I live, but others are not so lucky.

[checkmate3001]

 

Where can smokers smoke?  Wherever others aren't forced to inhale their smoke.

 

You might have more adherents to your point of view in New Jersey or Ohio (or in Greece) than in California.

 

You are pushing buttons.

Explain to me what your answer to your question is suggesting. It looks like you are suggesting that you don't care at all. I do care about non-smokers not having to smell smoke where they live. I offered a suggestion for apartment managers to select buildings where smoking is allowed and buildings where non-smokers could live without being affected by smoke.

You responded by saying "Smokers can smoke wherever no one is." Explain to me where that is. I'll wait...

No one is forcing anyone to inhale their smoke. You are choosing to stay in an apartment where you are affected by smoke. It does not seem to be a big enough deal for you to move to a different apartment. You may even find a house that is far cheaper than an apartment. I know I did. Then you can have a whole house smoke free. You have to realize that living in an apartment has it's disadvantages. One of them being living in close quarters with people you may not like who have habits you may not like. You may have to share a wall with someone you don't like or share a clothes washer or dryer with someone you don't like or who uses a detergent that irritates your skin. How bubble-wrapped must the world be and to what extent must we go to make everyone happy?

 

 

Uh, forever?

 

It's not poisoning people, is it?

Depends, some people may have severe allergies and certain ingredients may severely affect nearby neighbors. It all depends on how far we want to take this boat ride to crazy town.

[4thgenFolsomite]

if I invite people over for dinner, I'm not going to ask my neighbors if its okay if they have a cigarette in the backyard.  life isn't perfect.  if their dog barks non-stop or he is using power tools in his garage when I have guests over and sitting outside, I live with it. 

[ducky]

Uh, forever?

 

It's not poisoning people, is it?

 

Are you sure about that?  What if a neighbor says it bothers their asthma?  We already have no-burn days.

[checkmate3001]

I think we need to start with the assertion that smokers are going to smoke. I don't think anyone is bold enough to suggest that this law would result in a flood of people quitting smoking. So the question is where should they smoke. If they cannot smoke in the comfort of their own apartment than they are left with common areas. The BBQ pit, the playground, the parking lot, etc around the complex.

 

I think it makes far more sense to let the apartment owner's decide. That's how you solve this type of issue in a free country. If renters are bothered by the smoke than the owner will have to refuse to rent to smokers. On the other hand he may decide to put a sign out front "Smoker Friendly". The smokers would be happy and the rest of us would choose to live elsewhere. Maybe the apartment owner will decide to dedicate certain builidngs to smokers. Its amazing how creative people can get when living in a free society. Or we can pass a law and have the Folsom PD solve it. Than we don't need to be creative at all. Stalin proved it. 

 

 

-Robert

 

I agree. If smokers are banned from smoking where they live where will they end up. Let's say the end up walking around the complex. You can't possibly argue that the problem is now solved because you now have a roaming smoker affecting multiple buildings around the complex. Suddenly complaints increase by 10's instead of 1 or 2. Now we have to ban smoking on the entire property. Residents and visitors have to drive to a different location or walk a block (some complexes are fairly large properties FYI) to have a cigarette. Now they are parked on the side of the road smoking. The smoke is still there. The wind kicks up and blows it to the nearest building. Bam! 3 apartments got hit with smoke and are complaining...

Now we have to ban smoking within 50 yards of complexes. They are sitting in their cars in parking lots nearby smoking. How far should we take this?

[checkmate3001]

I want to be EXTREMELY CLEAR

I believe everyone should be able to breathe fresh air and avoid smoke if it bothers them. I fully understand sensitivity to smoke and even just smell. Even if you don't find it offensive, but you don't want it around your house for some particular reason, you should be able to have what you want...

HOWEVER, this doesn't mean you can make it illegal to smoke around you. There are better ways to achieve what you desire without infringing on people's rights. I fully believe that a manager of an apartment complex would want to make areas available where non-smokers could live happily. But I guarantee you cannot ever escape it forever.

I wish I didn't have to hear extremely loud motorcycles drive by my house, but I'm not going to make them illegal. I realize that I chose to live near a main road and that is a consequence of living there. This is just like living in an apartment complex. Apartments inherently have many disadvantages. Living in an apartment is somewhat of a choice.

As far as a home for the elderly (which someone said their is only 1 in Folsom - which I don't believe is true, but we'll say it is for argument's sake), I feel that maybe the managers of the home should reconsider their policy of where their residents can and can't smoke to limit the exposure to those who are bothered by it.

It comes down to people speaking up and stating that they have a problem with something, but not running to City Hall just because your neighbor does something you don't like. If we all complained when our neighbors did something we didn't like, we would be a very oppressed city.

[Rich_T]

 

You are pushing buttons.

Explain to me what your answer to your question is suggesting. It looks like you are suggesting that you don't care at all. I do care about non-smokers not having to smell smoke where they live. I offered a suggestion for apartment managers to select buildings where smoking is allowed and buildings where non-smokers could live without being affected by smoke.

You responded by saying "Smokers can smoke wherever no one is." Explain to me where that is. I'll wait...

No one is forcing anyone to inhale their smoke. You are choosing to stay in an apartment where you are affected by smoke. It does not seem to be a big enough deal for you to move to a different apartment. You may even find a house that is far cheaper than an apartment. I know I did. Then you can have a whole house smoke free. You have to realize that living in an apartment has it's disadvantages. One of them being living in close quarters with people you may not like who have habits you may not like. You may have to share a wall with someone you don't like or share a clothes washer or dryer with someone you don't like or who uses a detergent that irritates your skin. How bubble-wrapped must the world be and to what extent must we go to make everyone happy?

 

 

I'm not pushing buttons, I'm saying that smoking is a cultural thing, and that California is not the right culture for leaning towards tolerating smoke.  The other places I mentioned are more amenable to smokers.

 

I agree with your suggestion about apartment managers having non-smoking and "smoking permitted" buildings.  The problem has to do with existing setups that aren't like that.  Over time the situation can resolve itself, but meanwhile people with smoke issues have only one real choice - move out - and that's not fair.  You can say "Hey, life's not fair", but a society tries to make it fair whenever reasonable.

 

I didn't write ""Smokers can smoke wherever no one is", actually I wrote "Where can smokers smoke?  Wherever others aren't forced to inhale their smoke."  Still sounds fair to me.  In theory, that would be in one's own detached home, or outdoors away from public buildings.  It should also be true in one's own apartment, as long as the air is not carried into other units.  Smoking on the balcony is the main culprit IMO, and that's just selfish (i.e. "I don't want the smoke in my apartment, so others can live with it instead").

 

Your whole attitude is that, if smokers and non-smokers share an apartment building, that non-smokers should deal with smoke or move out.  That's your reasoning to support the claim that "no one is forcing anyone to inhale their smoke", because hey, you can always move.  I don't think that's right.  There is a huge difference that you just don't seem to appreciate between cigarette smoke and other aspects of living near others.  Finding a way to keep the smoke away does not qualify, at least not in my mind, as "bubble wrapping" life.  This issue is about cigarette smoke, period.

 

By the way, I assume you are using the word "you" in the general sense, and not to refer to me personally.  Because I don't live in an apartment, I live in a house.

if I invite people over for dinner, I'm not going to ask my neighbors if its okay if they have a cigarette in the backyard.  life isn't perfect.  if their dog barks non-stop or he is using power tools in his garage when I have guests over and sitting outside, I live with it. 

 

Why don't your guests just smoke inside your house, so that you get to deal with the smoke instead?

 

Answer:  because smokers typically think that they are being considerate by smoking outside, and that their smoke cannot possibly be bothering others in neighboring yards.  But it does.

 

Are you sure about that?  What if a neighbor says it bothers their asthma?  We already have no-burn days.

 

If a neighbor actually says that, then try to work out a solution.  But that's an outlier, and is a distraction from the topic at hand, which is cigarette smoke.

[Rich_T]

I believe everyone should be able to breathe fresh air and avoid smoke if it bothers them.

 

...HOWEVER, this doesn't mean you can make it illegal to smoke around you.

 

Therefore, it's still on the non-smokers to move/leave, even though it's the behavior of others that is creating the problem.  Not the best solution IMO.  Though I've tried that already:  I left Germany and came here, and the difference is remarkable in terms of not being around smoke.  Back in the day, they smoked at their desks in the office where I worked.  Here, we have laws against that.  The trick is to strike the right balance with sensible policies.

[Robert Gary]

 

Therefore, it's still on the non-smokers to move/leave, even though it's the behavior of others that is creating the problem.  Not the best solution IMO.  Though I've tried that already:  I left Germany and came here, and the difference is remarkable in terms of not being around smoke.  Back in the day, they smoked at their desks in the office where I worked.  Here, we have laws against that.  The trick is to strike the right balance with sensible policies.

 

Its part of living in a free society. Your money motivates the apartment owner to decide what policy best suits the needs of their customers. Perhaps there is a market for a smoker's only complex.

 

-Robert

[cw68]

I don't smoke cigarettes, but if I wanted to in my own backyard, or wanted to allow my guests to, I would be very irritated if my neighbor complained that they didn't like the smell. Ridiculous.

The health hazard presented in the great outdoors in neighboring yards would not be the reason, it would just be that they didn't like it. It's also not like an employee who would be forced to sit there and smell it, they could go inside until the cigarette was out or we went inside.

One can't just ban everything they don't like.

[4thgenFolsomite]

if someone smokes in my house, the smoke is confined and sticks to things.  it lingers for days.  if someone smokes outside, it dissipates immediately and is gone in the next breeze.