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#61 Chris

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 06:02 PM

Wish I could cut and paste!

And you still have nothing after looking at my historical evidence, decades, hundreds of years, thousands of years, hundred thousands of years, millions of years of evidence, the data. Yep, that is how it works, we can do this, we have the data, the proven science, we prove you wrong with the numbers and the actual science and you do not reply, you ignore, you just go on to some other Hillary inspired nonsense...............?    Yep, I am used to it as a trained person in the sciences.  You just post up non sense from the left, non science from the MSM, leftist, progressives........   Who seem to skip over and ignore anything, any data that does not fit their "man made global warming agenda".   But please carry on, it is so amusing, the group think of the left and their MSM water carriers...!   Knock yourselves out...!    Love the total denial of facts..........    Makes me happy because I know better.......    Makes me sad because I know your low intelligence democratic only voter base will just eat it up and parrot it back to us over and over again, and yes, the MSM is in that group.   Enjoy your current good weather, and no one is to blame for it.   Chris 


1A - 2A = -1A


#62 2 Aces

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 07:16 PM

Chris, I don't think those guys truly believe what they post. They are trolls. They just want attention. It's as simple as that.

#63 UncleVinnys

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:36 AM

Inappropriate and delusional charts don't shed any light on the problem of Climate Change.
The chart above goes back 800 million years.

Man has been on the earth for about 1 million years.

The Industrial Revolution, with its concurrent burning of fossil fuels, is only a few centuries old.

 

Higher temperatures in the air and the oceans are affecting our environment, in the form of

heat waves and storms.

:mellow:
I guess folks (perhaps like in Texas and Florida) who won't face the facts - -

well, maybe they NEED a hurricane to come to the realization that
"Gee, Maybe Al Gore was right!"

 

:idea:


1 God: 1 World: 1 People     :peaceman: 


#64 Chris

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:44 AM

Inappropriate and delusional charts don't shed any light on the problem of Climate Change.
The chart above goes back 800 million years.

Man has been on the earth for about 1 million years.

The Industrial Revolution, with its concurrent burning of fossil fuels, is only a few centuries old.

 

Higher temperatures in the air and the oceans are affecting our environment, in the form of

heat waves and storms.

 

Thank you for proving my point......!  Yes....!   Man has only been around a little while, only industrialized for maybe 250 years now.....!   "Inappropriate" chart....?   Is that a chart that does not fit your model, your view, your belief system, what you really want to believe, inconvenient truth (the real data), does not fit your political agenda....?   And I'll use my "inappropriate" chart on you again, 600 million years, of cyclic changes, drastic drops and peaks in temperature and CO2 all before you and I were here.   Just a 100 million years ago CO2 was at about 1600 ppm.  The average global temperature over that time is like 77 deg. F, now, today, in our time it's about 55 deg. F.   And we are way low on average in CO2, really low.  Do the math and the science and look at the big picture, there is nothing to worry about and Man is not causing it....!   Look up at the Sun, there's your big, bright, hot clue.  Chris

 

image277.gif?w=640&h=404

 

 

 

thescream-co2.jpg


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#65 The Average Joe

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 05:09 PM

 

Then don't buy a Tesla, or any other electric vehicle.  It's how they work.  Won't call you crazy, but seems you indeed are afraid of technical advances.

 

BTW, here are some numbers for you:

 

Fully charged Tesla Model S battery = 90 kWh of energy

20 gallons of gasoline in a typical car = 720 kWh of energy

 

Which will be more dangerous (more powerful release of energy) if something goes wrong in your garage?

 

Ever seen a car battery welded to a hood of a car?  I have more than once (not my cars) which usually starts a fire. You can weld with 50 amps.  380 amps create a LOT of heat. Your average car battery charger works at 1-7 amps.  Your average plug kicks the breaker at 20 amps.  Yes, I will pass on that. Your energy comparisons are silly. Gasoline has a high energy density, BUT in a gasoline car fire (contrary to what movies have you believe) that energy is released over many minutes. In a battery failure, that energy is released VERY quickly.  

Go for it if you want, I'll pass. Not afraid of technology, I'm afraid of stupidity of design.


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#66 Who_Do_You_Trust

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 11:32 PM

 

 

Go for it if you want, I'll pass. Not afraid of technology, I'm afraid of stupidity of design.

 

"stupidity of design" - gee, don't you think EV batteries have been designed with safety in mind?  Did a quick search and can't find even one incident of an EV vehicle exploding or catching fire during a charge cycle.  Going back to a horse and buggy would alleviate all your concerns.  No electricity, no gasoline...real safe.



#67 2 Aces

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 06:28 AM

You're wrong again. Teslas catch on fire all the time, even when not being charged. Google it.

 

fb470dd537e0416f06b889904218736f7497e1fa



#68 The Average Joe

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 09:36 AM

I don't know about "all the time," but the batteries DO cause fires.  Not stopping you from being a guinea pig, I'll just wait until I can examine the actual processes involved in the charging and emergency discharging.


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#69 Chris

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 09:37 AM

 

"stupidity of design" - gee, don't you think EV batteries have been designed with safety in mind?  Did a quick search and can't find even one incident of an EV vehicle exploding or catching fire during a charge cycle.  Going back to a horse and buggy would alleviate all your concerns.  No electricity, no gasoline...real safe.

Maybe they were not charging but still the same......    And I did love the look of them....  Those Karma's...    But maybe you won't see this....?   Chris

 

The Horribly Ironic Reason Why 338 Fisker Karmas Were Destroyed

 

https://jalopnik.com...-were-destroyed

 

.........."Did you catch that? The vehicles were held back to cover a recall related to them bursting into flames and, while waiting to be fixed, were inundated with salt water causing a large number of them to be destroyed by a fire. Their attempt to prevent the cars from catching on fire led to them catching on fire..."


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#70 Who_Do_You_Trust

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 08:30 PM

I don't know about "all the time," but the batteries DO cause fires.  Not stopping you from being a guinea pig, I'll just wait until I can examine the actual processes involved in the charging and emergency discharging.

 

You should read up on Lithium-Ion battery charging and discharging.  Very safe if done correctly, just like anything else.  A few EV cars have had battery fires, but all of them were after some impact where the battery casing was breached (just like when a gas tank is ruptured).  Never happened during charge/discharge.



#71 2 Aces

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:44 AM

Maybe YOU need to read up. Lithium-ion battery explosions and fires...short video..

 



#72 Chris

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:29 PM

 

You should read up on Lithium-Ion battery charging and discharging.  Very safe if done correctly, just like anything else.  A few EV cars have had battery fires, but all of them were after some impact where the battery casing was breached (just like when a gas tank is ruptured).  Never happened during charge/discharge.

Fisker Karma, read above....!


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#73 The Average Joe

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:41 PM

Perhaps YOU need to read up.  Lithium Ion batteries frequently catch fire.

 

Boeing grounded 787s for this reason  https://www.scientif...the-dreamliner/

HP had a recall for laptops due to Li-ion batteries failing  https://www.cpsc.gov...book-Computers/

Samsung also had issues... https://www.wired.co...kept-exploding/

Of course there were the hoverboards  https://www.cnet.com...-catching-fire/

 

Here is the best description I have found of the dangers of hi capacity batteries like LiIon or LIPo

 

 

Every cell phone (as well as laptop and nearly everything with a rechargeable battery) uses LiIon/LiPo (essentially equivalent for the purposes of this discussion). And you're right: In terms of actual incidences, lithium ion and lithium polymer are the safest battery chemistry to be in wide use, bar none.

And the only reason this now ubiquitous chemistry hasn't murdered you and/or your family several times over is because these cells aren't charged unattended. You may not be attending it personally, but every single one of those lithium ion batteries has a significant amount of protection and monitoring circuitry that is permanently integrated into the pack. It acts as the gatekeeper. It monitors every cell in a battery.

  • It disconnects the output terminals and prevents them from being overcharged.
  • It disconnects the output if they are discharged at too high a current.
  • It disconnects the output if it is CHARGED at too high a current.
  • If any of the cells is going bad, output is disconnected.
  • If any cell gets too hot, it disconnects the output.
  • If any one of the cells is overdischarged, it disconnects the output (and permanently - if you forget to charge a lithium ion battery for too long, you will find that it will no longer charge. It is effectively destroyed, and the protection circuit will not permit you to charge the cells).

Indeed, every single phone battery, laptop battery, *whatever battery that is a rechargeable lithium chemistry is the most closely monitored, scrutinized, and actively managed, diametric opposite of 'unattended' as one can get for a battery.

And the reason so much extra trouble is done is because lithium ion batteries are actually that dangerous. They need protection circuitry to be safe, and they are not even remotely safe without it. Other chemistries such is NiMH or NiCad can be used relatively safely as bare cells, without any monitoring. If they get too hot, they can vent (which has happened to me personally), and it can be pretty startling, but it isn't going to burn down your house or land you an extended stay in a burn unit. Lithium ion batteries will do both, and that's pretty much the only outcome. Ironically, lithium ion batteries have become the safest packaged battery by being the most dangerous battery chemistry.

You might be wondering what actually makes them so dangerous.

Other battery chemistries, such as lead acid or NiMH or NiCad, are not pressurized at room temperature, though heat does generate some internal pressure. They also have aqueous, non-flammable electrolytes. They store energy in the form of a relatively slow oxidation/reduction reaction, one whose rate of energy release is too low to, say, cause them to eject 6 foot jets of flame. Or any flame, really.

Lithium ion batteries are fundamentally different. They store energy like a spring. That's not a metaphor. Well, like two springs. Lithium ions are forced between the atoms of a covalently-bonded anode material, pushing them apart and 'stretching' the bonds, storing energy. This process is called intercalation. Upon discharge, the lithium ions move out of the anode and into the cathode. This is very much electromechanical, and both the anode and cathode experience significant mechanical strain from this.

In fact, both anode and cathode alternatively increase or decrease in physical volume depending on the battery's state of charge. This change in volume is uneven however, so a fully charged lithium ion battery is actually exerting nontrivial amounts of pressure on its container or other parts of itself. Lithium ion batteries are generally under a lot of internal pressure, unlike other chemistries.

The other problem is their electrolyte is a volatile, extremely flammable solvent that will burn quite vigorously and easily.

The complex chemistry of lithium ion cells is not even completely understood, and there are a few different chemistries with different levels of reactivity and inherent danger, but the ones with high energy density all can undergo thermal runaway. Basically, if they get too hot, lithium ions will begin reacting with oxygen stored as metal oxides in the cathode and release even more heat, which accelerates the reaction further.

What inevitably results is a battery that self-ignites, sprays its highly flammable solvent electrolyte out of itself, and promptly ignites that as well, now that a fresh supply of oxygen is available. That's just bonus fire however, there is still a ton of fire from the lithium metal oxidizing with the ample store of oxygen inside.

If they get too hot that happens. If they are overcharged, they become unstable and mechanical shock can make them go off like a grenade. If they are overdischarged, some of the metal in the cathode undergoes an irreversible chemical reaction and will form metallic shunts. These shunts will be invisible, until charging expands part of the battery enough that the separating membrane is punctured by one of these shunts, creating a dead short, which of course results in fire, etc.: The lithium ion failure mode we know and love.

So, just to be clear, not only is overcharging dangerous, but so is overdischarging, and the battery will wait until you've pumped a ton of energy back into it before spectacularly failing on you, and without any warning or measurable signs.

That covers consumer batteries. All this protection circuitry is less able to mitigate the danger of high drain applications, however. High drain generates no small amount of heat (which is bad) and more worrying, it causes huge amounts of mechanical stress on the anode and cathode. Fissures can form and widen, leading to instability if you're unlucky, or just a shorter useful life if it is not too severe. This is why you see LiPos rated in 'C', or how quickly they can be safely discharged. Please, take those ratings seriously and derate it, both for safety and because many manufacturers simply lie about the C rating of their batteries.

Even with all that, sometimes an RC Lipo will just burst into flame for no reason. You absolutely need to heed the warnings to never charge them unattended, and everything else. You should buy a safety bag to charge them in, because it might prevent your house burning down (possibly with you or loved ones inside). Even if the risk is very low, the damage it can cause is vast, and the measures needed to mitigate most of that potential for damage are trivial.

Don't ignore everything you're being told - it's all spot on. It comes from people who have learned to respect LiPos for what they are, and you should too. The thing you definitely want to avoid is having this lesson taught to you by a lithium ion battery, instead of peers online and offline. The latter might flame you on a forum, but the former will literally flame you.

Let's see some videos of stuff exploding!

Let me go a little more into how they fail. I've discussed the mechanism, but what really happens? Lithium ion batteries really only have one failure mode, which is kind of exploding then shooting out a stunningly huge amount of fire in a giant jet of flame for several seconds, and then continuing general burning-related activities for a bit after that. This is a chemical fire, so you cannot extinguish it (lithium ion batteries will still shoot out huge jets of fire even in the vacuum of space. The oxidizer is contained inside, it doesn't need air or oxygen to burn). Oh, and throwing water on lithium does nothing good, at least in terms of fire reduction.


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#74 Who_Do_You_Trust

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:36 PM

Joe - READ MY WORDS  IN PREVIOUS POSTS CAREFULLY - I'M TALKING ABOUT EV CAR BATTERIES BEING CHARGED.  THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL CONVERSATION.  There are no incidents of fires or explosions during this process.



#75 2 Aces

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:42 PM

READ MY WORDS...LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES AND EV CAR BATTERIES HAVE SERIOUS ISSUES WHETHER YOU ARE CHARGING, DISCHARGING, OR JUST USING THEM IN NORMAL USE. IT IS WIDELY DOCUMENTED THAT THEY CAN EXPLODE AND/OR BURST INTO FLAMES. IT IS WELL-DOCUMENTED. YOU ARE WOEFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THIS SUBJECT, AS USUAL !!







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