88 replies to this topic

[gingerkid]

When are they going to replace her?

[Robert Giacometti]

Well, I recall from the last council meeting that Starsky made a comment that the only time he'd spoken to Morin in the last year was a call about ousting the city manager or something to that effect. I can't imagine she was too thrilled to hear that... assuming it was news to her. Shame, really - seems like she's done a pretty good job.

Seems like there's been a lot of turnover in city management lately.

I wonder if this phone call occurred after that sale of the land?

[gottasmile]

From just looking at this issue from the outside, not knowing the workings of the city council and inner departments, it sounds like she is leaving for personal reasons. But, having worked in the business sector many years for Human Resources, leaving for personal reasons can be a cover for other reasons people do not want to get into so they do not 'burn any bridges'. Anyone accepting a position always knows what that position demands and the level of committment and time required. Maybe it was more than see anticipated. I could see that.

But, really. There has been too much turnover recently. That leads me to believe that there is a bigger problem and a lot more underlying things going on that the citizens are not aware of. If we were paying competitve salaries and hiring qualified people, than turnover should be MINIMAL! Apparently though, this is not the case. Makes a citizen wonder.

As to the reason for affordable housing...Folsom does not want 'affordable housing' because it brings in the 'criminal element'. Lower economic housing is associated with increased crime. I think that is really the underlying reason why the city 'chose' to ignore the rules and than got their hands slapped. Plus, affordable housing to me in NOT condos!! How can my children go into the front or back yards to play...they can't because condos don't have a front or back yard!! Thus, condos as affordable HOUSING is ludicrous. Real affordable housing is when HOUSES ARE AFFORDABLE! Unfortunatley, I don't see this happening in our city in the near future. Too much tax dollars depend upon selling higher priced homes...not realistic home costs so that middle income families can actual have the 'American Dream'.

My two cents.

[cw68]

From just looking at this issue from the outside, not knowing the workings of the city council and inner departments, it sounds like she is leaving for personal reasons. But, having worked in the business sector many years for Human Resources, leaving for personal reasons can be a cover for other reasons people do not want to get into so they do not 'burn any bridges'. Anyone accepting a position always knows what that position demands and the level of committment and time required. Maybe it was more than see anticipated. I could see that.

But, really. There has been too much turnover recently. That leads me to believe that there is a bigger problem and a lot more underlying things going on that the citizens are not aware of. If we were paying competitve salaries and hiring qualified people, than turnover should be MINIMAL! Apparently though, this is not the case. Makes a citizen wonder.

As to the reason for affordable housing...Folsom does not want 'affordable housing' because it brings in the 'criminal element'. Lower economic housing is associated with increased crime. I think that is really the underlying reason why the city 'chose' to ignore the rules and than got their hands slapped. Plus, affordable housing to me in NOT condos!! How can my children go into the front or back yards to play...they can't because condos don't have a front or back yard!! Thus, condos as affordable HOUSING is ludicrous. Real affordable housing is when HOUSES ARE AFFORDABLE! Unfortunatley, I don't see this happening in our city in the near future. Too much tax dollars depend upon selling higher priced homes...not realistic home costs so that middle income families can actual have the 'American Dream'.

My two cents.

Condos are affordable housing. First of all, there are plenty of people and families that don't include children. Secondly, making smart financial moves, of which home ownership can often be a part of, is more important IMHO than having a yard in which your children can play. Parents teach by example, and making sound financial decisions is something we can all use. Make the next home one with a yard.

[gottasmile]

Condos are affordable housing. First of all, there are plenty of people and families that don't include children. Secondly, making smart financial moves, of which home ownership can often be a part of, is more important IMHO than having a yard in which your children can play. Parents teach by example, and making sound financial decisions is something we can all use. Make the next home one with a yard.

Well, with all I had to say, I am kinda impressed that this is the only thing you disagreed with me about. But, I must point out that buying a home does require smart financial decisions. Not saying that people that cannot afford current homes and their prices are not making those smart financial decisions. Just saying that home costs have gotten so far outta hand, than middle class families, making wise economic decisions and savings, still cannot afford a home. Thus, when affordable housing is provided, it is not even in the form of a 'house', but attached homes. Good for those that do not have families, but what about those of us that do.

Please don't assume that because middle class families cannot currently afford homes in our area that we are incapable of making 'smart financial moves'. That's insulting to us all. IMHO.

[d1rocket]

SacBee statistics for city manager salaries...

Roseville $241,419
Elk Grove $211,150
Sacramento (retiring) $208,900
Folsom $198,224
Rocklin $183,600
Citrus Heights $175,000
Rancho Cordova $173,976
Davis $131,114

Average $190,422
City-Search.com statistics for firefighter salaries (some data is from 2002)...

Roseville $93,999
Sacramento $82,114
Sacramento Metro $80,000 (Approx from SacBee)
Davis $77,243
Folsom $70,020
Rocklin $50,845

Average $75,704
Folsom firefighters are approx 92 percent of the average around the area. Martha's salary was approx 104 percent of normal. So yes... both salaries are in the ballpark relative to their averages. If you want to make this a socialist type government... everyone can make the average. We'll make the new city manager make the average ($190,422)... and the firefighters the average ($75,704).

Sound good. Will you stop your whining? Probably not.

Most management employees that work with the City of Folsom receive what is internally referred to as a confidential premium. In short the premium is a percentage of salary that is rolled into each check for dealing with issues that are considered to be confidential.

To my knowledge, Folsom is the only city in the region that incorporates such a process. It is worth noting that when the City participates in compensation studies such as those listed above they do not include the confidential premium as part of base salary. Premiums range from 6 – 10%. I know for a fact that Martha Lofgren received a confidential premium while she was city attorney and that both Doug Udell and Mike Frost received confidential premiums of 10% while still employed.

Most management employees sign what is referred to as an employment contract every couple of years. Generally, the contract does not affect their merit system status as it pertains to employment, but it does allow for them to renegotiate compensation and benefit packages. Although the contracts are considered confidential they should be held to the light of day due to the compensatory element of them.

It is generally accepted part of the contract signing that managers are given a ‘bump’ in vacation time. I.e., we will reward you for your hard work by adding an additional 300 hours of vacation time to your leave bank balances – time that may be bought down to 0 at anytime. Once again this is something that is not included in base salaries and is something that is generally unique to the City of Folsom. Other city’s have buy down provisions but nothing as generous as what Folsom provides.

Finally, many contracts for high-level managers have what is known as ‘me to’ clauses. In short these clauses state that manager ‘x’ will never make more than ‘y%’ more than me. These clauses also affect things such as vacation accruals. It has been written into some contracts that managers always accrue vacation at or above the highest rate of anyone in the agency. This all sounds fine until you consider that firefighters that have been with the City for over 30 years accrue vacation at the rate of over 40 hours per month. Firefighters work shift work and as such take vacation in 24-hour blocks. Managers working in City Hall work 8 hours schedules. So hypothetically, if you have a city manager or assistant city manager with one of these clauses they accrue a weeks vacation every month or 480 hours per year – all of which may be bought down to zero at any time.

It is/was quite common for top level managers to make up to 40% more than what there base salary may indicate.

As a student of public administration and human resources my source of editorial is only that we best understand how the compensation structure works. I will leave it to others to debate as whether or not it is too generous.

[Robert Giacometti]

Most management employees that work with the City of Folsom receive what is internally referred to as a confidential premium. In short the premium is a percentage of salary that is rolled into each check for dealing with issues that are considered to be confidential.

To my knowledge, Folsom is the only city in the region that incorporates such a process. It is worth noting that when the City participates in compensation studies such as those listed above they do not include the confidential premium as part of base salary. Premiums range from 6 – 10%. I know for a fact that Martha Lofgren received a confidential premium while she was city attorney and that both Doug Udell and Mike Frost received confidential premiums of 10% while still employed.

Most management employees sign what is referred to as an employment contract every couple of years. Generally, the contract does not affect their merit system status as it pertains to employment, but it does allow for them to renegotiate compensation and benefit packages. Although the contracts are considered confidential they should be held to the light of day due to the compensatory element of them.

It is generally accepted part of the contract signing that managers are given a ‘bump’ in vacation time. I.e., we will reward you for your hard work by adding an additional 300 hours of vacation time to your leave bank balances – time that may be bought down to 0 at anytime. Once again this is something that is not included in base salaries and is something that is generally unique to the City of Folsom. Other city’s have buy down provisions but nothing as generous as what Folsom provides.

Finally, many contracts for high-level managers have what is known as ‘me to’ clauses. In short these clauses state that manager ‘x’ will never make more than ‘y%’ more than me. These clauses also affect things such as vacation accruals. It has been written into some contracts that managers always accrue vacation at or above the highest rate of anyone in the agency. This all sounds fine until you consider that firefighters that have been with the City for over 30 years accrue vacation at the rate of over 40 hours per month. Firefighters work shift work and as such take vacation in 24-hour blocks. Managers working in City Hall work 8 hours schedules. So hypothetically, if you have a city manager or assistant city manager with one of these clauses they accrue a weeks vacation every month or 480 hours per year – all of which may be bought down to zero at any time.

It is/was quite common for top level managers to make up to 40% more than what there base salary may indicate.

As a student of public administration and human resources my source of editorial is only that we best understand how the compensation structure works. I will leave it to others to debate as whether or not it is too generous.

d1rocket, welcome to the forum!

What is your source for information? Its been said by an elected official, that city of Folsom is the only "forthright'' city around who reports all this information.

[mylo]

Hi d1rocket, welcome

[realtor]

Most management employees that work with the City of Folsom receive what is internally referred to as a confidential premium. In short the premium is a percentage of salary that is rolled into each check for dealing with issues that are considered to be confidential.

To my knowledge, Folsom is the only city in the region that incorporates such a process. It is worth noting that when the City participates in compensation studies such as those listed above they do not include the confidential premium as part of base salary. Premiums range from 6 – 10%. I know for a fact that Martha Lofgren received a confidential premium while she was city attorney and that both Doug Udell and Mike Frost received confidential premiums of 10% while still employed.

Most management employees sign what is referred to as an employment contract every couple of years. Generally, the contract does not affect their merit system status as it pertains to employment, but it does allow for them to renegotiate compensation and benefit packages. Although the contracts are considered confidential they should be held to the light of day due to the compensatory element of them.

It is generally accepted part of the contract signing that managers are given a ‘bump’ in vacation time. I.e., we will reward you for your hard work by adding an additional 300 hours of vacation time to your leave bank balances – time that may be bought down to 0 at anytime. Once again this is something that is not included in base salaries and is something that is generally unique to the City of Folsom. Other city’s have buy down provisions but nothing as generous as what Folsom provides.

Finally, many contracts for high-level managers have what is known as ‘me to’ clauses. In short these clauses state that manager ‘x’ will never make more than ‘y%’ more than me. These clauses also affect things such as vacation accruals. It has been written into some contracts that managers always accrue vacation at or above the highest rate of anyone in the agency. This all sounds fine until you consider that firefighters that have been with the City for over 30 years accrue vacation at the rate of over 40 hours per month. Firefighters work shift work and as such take vacation in 24-hour blocks. Managers working in City Hall work 8 hours schedules. So hypothetically, if you have a city manager or assistant city manager with one of these clauses they accrue a weeks vacation every month or 480 hours per year – all of which may be bought down to zero at any time.

It is/was quite common for top level managers to make up to 40% more than what there base salary may indicate.

As a student of public administration and human resources my source of editorial is only that we best understand how the compensation structure works. I will leave it to others to debate as whether or not it is too generous.

So how do I get hired on with the city...with a "me too" clause?
Along these same lines I live on the same block as a city employee and since I work out of my house see how often they come and go...they seem to have plenty of spare time to come home at least 2x each day during working hours. I've seen the city trucks parked and the drivers on a phone...what exactly are we getting for our $ Considering the slow down in the market and the fact that my expenses do not slow down a city job looks pretty good especially with the benies...

[old soldier]

I too welcome the old rocket. from the sounds of his first post he has a handle on how the government folks pull the wool over citizens eyes.

hope you have a flashlight that can look real deep under the rug that the secrets are swept

[d1rocket]

I too welcome the old rocket. from the sounds of his first post he has a handle on how the government folks pull the wool over citizens eyes.

hope you have a flashlight that can look real deep under the rug that the secrets are swept

The argument has been made in the past by high-level management employees at City Hall as well as by your “forthright” city council that the information contained in the employment contracts is confidential. To say that I disagree with this stance would be preaching to the choir.

It would be interesting to know how much vacation time they put on the books for the new CM. Ask council members about confidential premiums and accrual rates.

In theory and for the most part in practice I am a fan of government. However, I have remained silent on the compensation issues with in the management of the City for quite some time. I have completed multiple compensation studies on the City’s in the area (Folsom, Rocklin, West Sacramento, Davis) and can say with no hesitation that during the time the studies were completed there were no other Cities that came close to hiding compensation the way that Folsom does.

Folsom is very tight about revealing this type of information and will rarely disclose it in compensation studies with neighboring agencies – and if they do it is only piece meal. Rest assured they would never reveal such information to the press.

Keep in mind it has been several years since I have had access to the previously described data so it is possible that the City has done a turn around and does not engage in these types of tactics anymore. However, it is still disturbing that counsel members have gone to such lengths to conceal compensation in such a sneaky way….but then again maybe I am editorializing and it seems as though I promised not to do that.

[Robert Giacometti]

As I have said before, on this forum and elsewhere, if you really want to know my opinion, all you have to do is ask me. You can do that by phone, in person or by email. That would of course require that the inquirer identify themself. More often than not, I have no choice but to assume that getting the real answer is far less interesting than much of the speculation and wrong information that gets posted here. Having the correct information just isn't any fun.

To correct some of the inaccurate information, she is not now, nor was she when she was hired, the highest paid Manager in the region. Please also keep in mind that the City of Folsom has always been completely forthcoming about Martha's total compensation package - that can not be said for all of the other jurisdictions in the region.


Kerri Howell

d1rocket, comparing your last post, to this post from earlier in this thread its obvious there seems to be a difference of opinion regarding the issue of being forthright.

Its great that someone else, who has the experience, knowledge and willingness to speak out and provide the citizens with another perspective, rather than the deliberate misleading information that has been spread.

We the citizens deserve the truth from our government, regardless if its from the Feds, State, County or City!

[d1rocket]

d1rocket, comparing your last post, to this post from earlier in this thread its obvious there seems to be a difference of opinion regarding the issue of being forthright.

Its great that someone else, who has the experience, knowledge and willingness to speak out and provide the citizens with another perspective, rather than the deliberate misleading information that has been spread.

We the citizens deserve the truth from our government, regardless if its from the Feds, State, County or City!

When the City of Roseville calls the City of Folsom to compare compensation packages who do you think answers the phone?

I can assure you it is not Kerri....

[old soldier]

I am betting before long we will be hearing from fiesty kerri on this issue and we may see some excitement because if d1rocket is close to the mark we will some sparks flying

these city manager folks all make so darn much money it would seem foolish to have them hide even more

if they are dishonest with their pay what else are they sneaking on

[Kerri Howell]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't my post say if you have a question, ask me? Robert, did I inadvertently delete your email, did I not get your phone message, or are you simply bashing me AGAIN? Robert can we please simply agree to disagree - you quit bashing me and I will quit responding.

Old Soldier always seems to know just what is likely to bring out Feisty Kerri!

Back to the actual subject, there is NO additional pay for the City Manager being aware of "confidential" information. I do not have a copy of the contract in front of me, but the vacation and leave time in Mr. Miller's contract is less than what was in Ms. Lofgren's contract, which was significantly less than what was in Mr. Frost's contract. The prior post was correct in that, I do not take phone calls from the City of Roseville relative to compensation packages. All of the information contained in the regional compensation package comparisons are done by a third party - not by the Council, not by the City Manager and not by City of Folsom Staff. They are done for numerous positons, including both represented and unrepresented employees (that means union and non-union). Mr. Miller's salary and benefits are public information - anybody out there who works in the private sector want to post their salary and benefits on this website? I didn't think so.

Kerri