159 replies to this topic

[tony]

QUOTE (OctoberLily @ Feb 13 2004, 02:03 PM)

Also, I've NEVER seen an adult on the bicycle lane during any of those hours.

There's a short cautionary expression spoken between cyclists concerned about their safety on the road: "you are invisible to the average motorist; never assume anyone sees you, even if you are looking them right in the eyes." Apparently, based on the posts in this thread, that statement is even more true than I ever imagined!

PS The garrish jerseys worn by cyclists are not a fashion statement; they are an attempt to be as visible as synthetically possible. Obviously to no avail with this group.

[zach5]

Once again with OctoberLilly, I too havent seen an adult in the bicycle lane around those hours

[anonymous]

while biking is noble and a great source of exercise, it would be a stretch to even say 1 in 500 do it daily... I think desperate times call for desperate measures. Perhaps losing the bike lane in one direction is needed in order to have an official drop off area. Tony I know you are an advocate but something needs to be done. Anyone that's driven by the high school at 7:50 certainly shares my pain.

Something needs to be done. Perhaps a connecting road that goes behind the high school? That land is currently unused.

[tessieca]

I guess it's too late to lament that there was an undercrossing planned for the bike trail right new Folsom High. That would have reduced the need for bike lanes (keep the bikes on the trails), but it's now way too late and too expensive.

[Sibley Resident]

Wow, It's amazing to me that so many believe that they should have the right to determine what law they should or should not follow. Those that are breaking this law are no different than the people that feel they should be able to drive 5, 10, 15, 20mph etc... over the speed limit (I'm sure they don't think it's a big deal), I guess because they feel the speed limit posted is incorrect, therefore they don't need to follow it. There are people here that believe they should be able to stop there vehicle anywhere they want even though the signs and the law clearly state differently.You may think what you are doing is minor and not a big deal (so it's ok to bend that law) but some believe it is. Just as their are others out there that will bend the law to suit them, they may think what they are doing is minor, but you may not. A large part of what is wrong with society today is everyone determining their own laws instead of following the laws on the books. Even more important you are setting an extremely bad example for your children, showing them that if they believe the laws or rules are wrong or inconvenient to them, then that's ok, they just won't apply to them. Instead, what you should be teaching them, is if they believe something is wrong then they should work within the laws and rules and try and change things. Where does the bending of the law stop. When you say so, or your neighbor, who then decides. That is what the law is all about, it decides and if you don't like it then try and change it, but until then follow the law.

[tony]

Sibley Resident:

I'm happy to say I agree with you 100%. Well said.

Tessieca:

I'm confused: are you referring to a planned undercrossing at the existing HS or at the planned school on Broadstone Parkway, because the latter one has been built (a big victory for the advocates, I might add). That said, 1) it's never too late or too expensive to make it safe for our kids to get to school (and we have one of the state's best grant writers on city staff working on building our trail system), and 2) the suggestion that bikes should be kept on the trails is at best reflective of a hugely auto-centeric viewpoint and at worst a complete misunderstanding ot the CA vehicle code, which treats bicycles as vehicles, with all the same rights and responsibilities as cars, with a few minor exceptions. Bike trails will never replace the need for safe on-street riding. It is impossible to build a trail system that provides the access to all destinations within our city that the road system does. The need for bike lanes does not, in general, diminish with the construction of off-street trails. On the contrary, the construction of bike trails increases demand for all types of bicycle facilities by enticing people to use their bikes more often and for a wider variety of purposes.

anonymous:

I certainly agree that a better drop-off situation is in order, but the bike lanes are not the first place to look for a solution. As John and I suggested, there are other ways to provide better drop-off facilities.

And the number in Folsom is actually about 1 in 200 according to the city, much lower than the City of Sacramento (1 in 20) or, dare I mention it, Davis (1 in 4). There is no reason Folsom should have such a low bicyling mode share: the weather is nearly ideal, it has a good jobs-housing balance, most streets at least have bike lanes, it is geographically fairly compact and only moderately hilly (some areas more moderate than others)...So why aren't there more cyclists? There are as many excuses as there are motorists, but there are a few dozen of us working to decrease the number of motorists, one commuter at a time. Does it work? Five years ago, I was the only bike commuter in an office of 100+ people. Now there are 10 who do at least once a week for half the year, and half of those ride 3 or more times per week. Why? Because once they try it they realize how many benefits there are: daily exercise without the cost of a health club; cheaper commuting; a better mental state when arriving at work and back again at home; cleaner air for everyone; and, more and more every day here in Folsom, a way to beat the traffic. Tilting at windmillw you say? No, just trying to share my little secret, do my small part to make Folsom a slightly better place to live for everyone (cleaner air and less traffic), and make it as safe as possible for those of us who do choose to travel without the benefit of 3000 lb umbrellas.

[anonymous]

OK, so maybe bike lanes shouldn't be first on the list. But as I see it, it has 2 bike lanes, only one is needed, especially when the bike traffic is minimal.

So 1 in 200. I will tell you why it is that low.

#1) This ain't Davis, and it never will be. Davis is chock full of earthy tree-huggin' liberals. I'll wave at the bicyclists when they pass me filling up my SUV, and that's fine by me. I have never liked Davis. They can have their toad tunnels, "light pollution" and city halls made out of straw, but keep it out of my town.

#2) Um, you may have noticed a small difference between Sac, Davis, and Folsom... WE HAVE HILLS. I'm sure you are extremely fit and you can handle it, but the average middle-age guy who schleps to work every day by car would have a heart attack on some of these hills.

#3) Most of us commute to Sacramento every day. That's like 20-30 miles. No way you can ever convince me that 2-4 hours of rigorous exercise a day is not going to take a toll. That's assuming none of us have families to go home to.

I think you are a great guy for being an advocate, but it's not for me. I think I speak for most of us when I say I'll use my bike on the weekends on our lovely trails, thanks.

[Steve Heard]

Tony

It sounds like your true agenda is to get everyone to get out of their cars. While a noble idea, the school is in such a location that it is both a dangerous and far place to get to for most, not some, most of Folsom's kids.

The more I think about it, a two way bike lane on one side of the street makes a whole lot more sense than complaining about parents dropping off their kids at school.

[Steve Heard]

Sibley

Think 'civil disobedience', 'sit ins', 'freedom marches', 'using common sense' and other All American acts of defiance against unjust laws.

Yes, it is unjust to have a school that is accessible by only two streets, which are both major arteries, with inadequate parking, a school administration that wants to keep parents out of at least one of the lots, and have every inch of curb space around the school designated as 'no stopping' and/or 'bike lane'. That is truly unjust.

There is a great and major difference between parents who are focused on the safety and education of their kids, vs. reckless speeders who don't like speed limits.

Parents are obligated to get their kids to school, and on time. It is difficult, if not impossible to do it without traffic spilling out onto the street and into the bike lanes. These parents are not frivolously or arbitrarily breaking the law. They have no practical alternative.

That the police do not come down on these parents proves that they realize, after seeing it every day, hearing parents complain about it, that the parents must be allowed to get their kids to school, regardless of the existence of the grossly underused bike lanes.

[tony]

Steve: You're showing your ignorance about cycling. There are two bike lanes for the same reason there are 2, 4 or 6 traffic lanes on a road: they are one way facilities. You can't just remove one. While you could build an off-street trail, it would have to extend the entire length of Iron Point to be effective. Building short bike trails parallel to roads ceates dangerous situations at intersections and encourages wrong-way riding on ther street where the tril ends. On top of that, eliminating one of the bike lanes would just mean you'd now have people dropping kids off in only one bike lane instead of two, or would it them be OK to enforce the regulations against parking in the bike lane?

Most of Folsom is not that hilly. I am in what shape I am in because I bike to work in Folsom, not the other way around.

I'm not out to get rid of all cars in Folsom, just 5 or 10 percent of them. That is a very realistic goal and consistent with our city's bikeway master plan, Caltrans and the FHWA. While many Folsom residents commute to Sacramento, I doubt it is a majority. But that is another discussion about choosing to live near where you work to limit your commute time (regardless of mode choice). Did you all know that FOlsom proudly accepted teh silver Bike Friendly City award from the League of American Bicyclists? The mayor said he would like it to be gold next time. Perhaps we are not as different from Davis as you think (although I would not suggest that the mayor wants Folsom to be just like Davis).

There are two drop-off areas on campus. I find it quite a stretch to call it a social justice issue that parents have to wait in line to drop off their kids..

For those of oyu who say it's just too dangerous for HS kids to bike or walk to school, maybe you should think about how it could be made safer. Eliminating the bike lanes sure isn't going to make it safer. Time to quit cursing the darkness and light a candle.

[Sibley Resident]

Stevethedad
Sit in’s, Freedom Marches, Protests, are all legal ways of showing your defiance to a law. You are more than welcome to go park your vehicle in a designated parking zone and get your signs and show your defiance walking back and fourth on the sidewalk, or go to the City Council and ask for their assistance in working out something with the school if you can’t work it out with them directly. Try and get access to the teachers parking or anything else you want. However, out right defying a law simply because you don’t like it and not trying to change it for the better good is what is wrong with parents doing this and the out right bad example this is setting for their children. There are very important examples to be showing these kids and that is, that you don’t just choose what it is you are or you are not going to follow but if you don’t like something there is a process to go through to try and change it.

Believe me know one knows how difficult this process is in this city better than I do. It’s ugly and it’s time consuming and it’s difficult, but it is the right way to go not only for myself, my family and the example I’m showing for my daughter but if I succeed than I will also be helping so many others. The statement “police do not come down on these parents proves that they realize, this statement is as ridiculous as they come. Because the police do not enforce the law in this city that means it’s ok. Well, on my residential street, where the speed limit is 25mph, 85% of the 6000 to 8000 vehicles driving on it are exceeding 41mph on a 22ft wide road with no sidewalks, this is documented by the city and they have been aware of the problem for years (you want to talk about dangerous, we just had a vehicle vrs pedestrian (child) accident on Valentines Day here) However, under your theory, because the police are under staffed or are just to lazy to do anything about it, that means they endorse this. I guess that means because mom and dad are not looking or chooses to look over something than it’s ok for the child to do something they know is wrong.

You have proven my point, you think that the law for these parents is ok to bend, but others that think another law is ok to bend is wrong. This is a very ugly road to go down, when everyone gets to determine for themselves the laws or rules they deem acceptable to follow. You think the speeders are wrong, well they may think you are wrong. However, I would say you both are breaking the law and are wrong and are setting very bad examples for the children in those cars. Oh, I know they are supposed to do as we say and not as we do. They should be able to determine that it is ok for Mom or Dad to do something but not ok for them.

Changing something again is not easy but if you don’t like something and feel that you need to be provided a safe, legal way to drop your children off than look at the big picture and the greater good and try and change it, for yourself, your children and others. Stop thinking about I,I,I,I,I Me,Me,Me,Me, and thumb your nose at everyone else. Maybe, if more people took an active roll in changing things, than maybe we would have a safer and more polite roads to drive, bicycle or walk on. Traffic Etiquette is the topic here isn’t it?

[Steve Heard]

Tony

We have heavily used bike trails with two way traffic. I see it when jogging on the trails. The trails are narrow and winding, yet accomodate bikers, walkers, runners, dogs and kids.

The bike lanes in front of the schools are wide and straight, so can't believe that having two way traffic on them would constitute a safety issue.

Sibley

I am not thinking of me me me. I don't have kids currently enrolled at FHS. I just know that it is difficult if not impossible to obey that law. Even the parents who do wait to get into the parking lot must do so by blocking the bike lanes.

[tony]

I know brevity is not my strong point, but here's a short version of Sibley Resident's argument, to which I subscribe completely: when we obey laws only as they suit us, it is called anarchy.

Steve: so, if access from only two major arterials is unjust, just how many access points off of how many major roads are required for the sake of justice? If you take out the bike lanes to provide more drop-off access, then where is the justice for the children who ride their bikes to school? Remove the bike lanes and they have no safe access routes, infiinitely less than the unjust two provided for parental drop-off.

Leave a little bit earlier so your kids aren't late for school. It's not the school's responsibility to guarantee commute times; it's the parents' obligation to get their students there on time, whatever it takes (unless of course the kids are riding school buses, which are potentially a huge part of the solution). Back when I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, I walked or biked to school for 8 years of elementary school and took a school bus, city bus or hitched the 5 miles to high school. When I was a senior, my parents let me drive occassionally. Remember, the good old days for me happen to be when crime rates were much higher (they peaked in the mid-70s) than they are now. I do not understand why 90% of high school parents need to drop their kids off at school. Seems we are just teaching them to be dependent on their parents, and, oh yeah, bad driving practices.

[tony]

steve: it is very dangerous having bicylcists riding the wrong way on streets, whcih is what you are proposing. Off-street bike trails are a completely different animal. Re-read my post. This is not merely my opinion (although I am well-qualified in this area). Check with Caltrans, the FHWA or our traffic engineer. Clearly you are not a cyclist, or you wuld not make such unsafe suggestions as two-way bike traffic in an 8-ft on-street bike lane adjacent to 50+ mph vehicular traffic. There are dozens of reasons why this is a bad idea.

[Sibley Resident]

It seems that this is getting into a debate about one specific issue and is getting off the topic of drivers/traffic Etiquette. I believe the reason why there are so many bad drivers is because of the Me, me, me ,me attitude plaguing society today. I believe that you can apply the following statement to any of the drivers out there and their bad behavior.

Their time is more important than your safety or your time!

Just a few examples:

That is why they can step on the gas and cut you off as the swerve into your lane.

Why they can speed down residential & city streets, blatantly ignoring the speed limit because their time is so precious.

Why they can cross over into on coming traffic to pass someone actually driving the speed limit.

How much am I missing here?