219 replies to this topic

[tony]

Lembi: I can't really argue with your assessment of the striping on Lembi. The problem, in my estimation, is the same as the problem with the traffic circle in Briggs Ranch 10 years ago. It was traffic calming on the cheap (that one was also ugyl). There are a number of specific problems with it: 1) not enough bike traffic or parked cars to convincingly make the visual narrowing effective, 2) the bike lanes are too wide at 7' and not marked well enough, making them look too much like traffic lanes and creating confusion, 3) in order for the narrowing effect to work, it has to actually be narrower someplace -- this is done, at minimum, by extending the curbs at the intersections to define the parking area, and has the added benefit of making the striping less confusing at the intersections 4) the confusion caused by the lack of centerline is intentional, causing the average driver to slow down, but in conjunction with the too wide bike lane and lack of parked cars, it doesn't really work and 5) as Orangetj suggested, you've got to do somethinn else at the intersections-- I would propose traffic circles over stop signs. Also as orangetj pointed out, the real problem is the excessively wide streets throughout Folsom, this being perhaps the poster child. I think the real solution here is to actually make the street narrower and pudt some curves in it (along with the other suggestions above). What a waste of expensive real estate these wide streets are! Take about 15' out of the pavement, allow parking on only one side (that's plenty for any residential street without extenuating circumstances) and put some in landscape strips between the curb and sidewal. Good traffic calmiing not only slows traffic but tends to spruce up a neighborhood too (not that Lembi needs sprucing) by minimizing the visual impact of great expanses of pavement.

That said, the real idiots will speed no matter what. Traffic calming is most effective at slowing down the vast makority of folks who just aren't paying attention to how fast they are driving.

[Orangetj]

Great reply! I would LOVE to see those types of measures employed on Lembi, but I don't think it's very likely to the costs involved. As somebody said in an earlier post, you can't make streets look like freeways and then expect people to drive 25 mph. I could be wrong, but I think most people speeding on Lembi are just oblivious of their speed rather than intentionally being jerks. The result is the same, though - an unsafe street due to excessive speeds in close proximity to homes/driveways/children on bicycles/etc.. I can't help but wonder what the developer's impetus was to design in such wide streets. Surely they could have made more profitable use of that land.

OrangeTJ

[Animal]

All I have to say is how wonderful it is to be able to walk across Sibley at 6pm to chat with my neighbors and not worry about some irate driver stuck in traffic taking their frustration out on me and my neighborhood. It's almost too good to be true! Yes, it is a bit of an inconvenience to me as a resident, and yes, it is totally worth it! I strongly encourage the city to keep this measure in place. I'm part of the traffic committee and will continue to work closely with the city to return the historic district to it's pre-traffic pre-nightmare state. It is SO NICE NOW!!!

[Sibley Resident]

I must agree with the assessment that Lembi's speeding problems are not strictly due to the width of the street. If that was the case, then Sibley 22ft wide (one of the smallest streets in the entire city) no side walks, no bike lines, not even a shoulder would not have the 85th percentile at 41mph when the posted speed is 25mph. These people are either just not paying attention and will drive their cars as fast as the cars can go, that they feel comfortable with because they are to oblivious to remember the drivers license test they took, where one of the questions is the speed limit in a residential neighborhood or to look at the signs (I believe that would be the majority of these speeders) and the others that just have an entire lack of respect and frankly do not care what the speed limit is (which I believe are the minority, but feels like the majority). Simply narrowing the road will not slow the speeds, other measures would have to be taken in conjunction with the narrowing to even be a little effective. I really like Tony's suggestion and I believe some of that has been considered, maybe Lembi can clarify but I believe our committee did look at some of that along with gateways for Lembi but the speed issues for both neighborhoods, seems to been tabled until the city gets the volume under control. I believe both volume and speeds were important to all of us but the majority felt that if you at least got the volume down, that you would in turn eliminate a lot of the speeders coming through. After volume is dealt with, I believe the meetings will continue and look at speeds, I know I will not be letting it go and I don't believe the majority of our committee will.

[Sibley Resident]

I would like to also add that yesterday I left Raleys at 5:24 and took Riley to Natoma down to Sibley and went home. I was home just as the clock turned 5:29. This was less than 5 minutes. I could have taken Bidwell and made the illegal left hand turn along with the other 14 vehicles I watched do it, but I didn’t. The last car that made the illegal turn as I watched was the same car that was sitting on Sibley trying to make the left hand turn from Sibley onto Natoma. If I wasn’t so completely annoyed by that, I would have been laughing because I beat him to the point he was trying to go and if he had followed me instead of going through the neighborhood, he would have been further than he was. For some reason people seem to think just because their car is moving that they are getting somewhere faster than if they had waited. Things look worse than they are so they try anything just to keep the car moving. However by staying on the arterial it always provides the opportunity to go but by going through the neighborhood you never know what is on the other side and you might just end up waiting longer. It’s funny though that he than had to wait for the cars to clear on Natoma (The same cars in my group he tried to bypass) and then he had to wait for me to make my left before he could go. I can assure you that was an extremely slow left turn I made, I had to make sure I had a significant amount of clearance to go didn’t I? The time that this has added (sometimes added, I’m not convinced in some ways it has not even made things better for the people using Natoma), is entirely insignificant compared to the benefits to the entire neighborhood and as I have been trying to convince people, that was proof positive to me that using the neighborhoods does not provide any benefit to them but not using the neighborhoods has provided a considerable benefit to the neighborhood and the people who live here.

[bordercolliefan]

In the spririt of keeping an open mind, I have tried using Riley (instead of Sibley) to Natoma to take my children to preschool in the mornings.

It isn't too bad... until I get to the junior high. As anticipated, it is chaos down there with cars trying to drop off kids, kids crossing the street on bikes, on foot, on skateboards, etc. I do hate to add to the traffic down there.

As an aside, I can't believe what I see in terms of the kids coming to junior high! A lot of them walk or ride bikes against traffic on the southbound side of Riley, with no sidewalk. Most of the bike riders and skateboarders have no helmets. They need to cross very busy roads to get to school (Riley and E. Bidwell).

I am surprised there are so many parents who allow this! With that school, in that location, I think I'd drive my kids (though I know that would add to the traffic, too).

[Sibley Resident]

BorderCollieFan: I greatly appreciate you trying other routes. I’m not sure if you have but could you try both ways a few times and see what the difference is time wise, how much time it actually adds if any. Are we talking about 30 sec, 1 min, 5 min or 20. Like I said in my last post sometimes things look worse than they really are and people have a tendency to believe just because their car is moving that they are getting somewhere faster. I’m not saying this is the case in the direction and the time of day you are going but I do believe such as Riley to Natoma to Folsom Blvd has very well benefited from this because there is no longer an intrusion of traffic coming out of our neighborhood delaying Natoma and has added a considerable amount of safety for those on Natoma not having the amount of people that were darting out of the neighborhood in front of them anymore. It also has removed the safety hazard these people were causing to themselves doing this. I think as I have said before about Sutter/Scott/Coloma that some peoples routes might take them a little longer, while other peoples routes have benefited from this. The difference is that while that has shifted it has also provided a considerable amount of safety for all and has gone a long ways to helping our neighborhood. I’m not sure where in Natoma Station you are and if Folsom Blvd to Natoma may be an option to try, to see if it actually takes any longer time wise. I would be curious to know that to, if it is possible can you try that a few times.

Regarding the sidewalk issue, Lembi Resident is best qualified to discuss what is going on with that or lack of work going on with that.

Thank you,

[Terry]

Keep in mind that if you abide by the 25 mph speed limit on Sibley and the stop sign at Lembi, it probably takes the same time as any other route.

[Lembi Resident]

Very good news regarding the completion of sidewalk along Riley near the corner of Lembi: The Public Works Department informed today that the sidewalk should be completed by August before school starts.

This should provide a much safer pedestrian route, especially for the middle school children.

Many thanks to the City of Folsom!

[tony]

bordercollie: While I certainly agree with your assessment of the safety hazards for school children walking/biking/skeateboarding to the middle school, I am forever distressed that so many parents come to the same conclusion as you did -- that you wuold drive them to school -- rather than deciding, like Lembi resident, that the existing conditions are not acceptable. If it is not safe for junior high children to walk or bike to school, then we ought to be demanding that our city government (and school district) do something to make it safe. Every one of those parents who makes the decision to drive their kids because of traffic safety concerns, just makes it more dangerous for those who are left walking. It's a downward spiral, and unfortunately, we're pretty close to the bottom of that spiral already. It's unconsionable that there are not decent sidewalks in the vicinity of the middle school, which has been there for almost 50 years.

Well, one opportunity to do something about it is coming soon with the city's preparation of a pedestrian master plan. Look for an announcement soon about public workshops and participate. If not, it will remain the low priority it always has been.

[tony]

Congratulations Lembi! Now all we need is a few more Lembis.

[Terry]

QUOTE (tony @ Apr 23 2004, 12:44 PM)

It's unconsionable that there are not decent sidewalks in the vicinity of the middle school, which has been there for almost 50 years.

Sutter Middle School was previously Folsom High and has been there for almost 100 years now. For many years, the student population was a couple hundred at most, and even into the 90s, it was under 1000 students. Because they were high schoolers, a lot of them drove to school instead of walking like the middle school-aged kids have to. Now, we have a situation where there are a lot more students, none of whom can drive, so that drastically increases the pedestrian traffic around the middle school. Further, Sutter Middle School even into the 70s was at the edge of Folsom, and now it's just a matter of connecting the existing sidewalks with the newer developments. There are some gaps, but they're being connected. The pedestrian planning will help, but truthfully, the vehicle traffic issues/driver lawlessness impact more on pedestrian safety than simply adding sidewalks. Drivers simply need to pay attention and understand that pedestrians have the right-of-way in almost all instances.

[tony]

Terry, I've got to disagree with you on a few points here. Thirty years ago ago over 66% of students walked or biked to school (US CDC). Today that number is less than 15%. At the high school age, 30 years ago far fewer students drove to school in general because far fewer households could spare a car for their 16 year old to take to school. Plus, in Folsom, back when the school was smaller (before the boom of the mid 80s) the vast majority of the high school students lived within walking distance. Besides, last time I checked, about 30% of high school students were too young to drive.

As for "some gaps" being filled in, I can think of only one other sidewalk gap closure project that was not done as part of an adjacent development (a temporary asphalt sidewalk along E. Bidwell about 10 years ago). There was a gap on Glenn across from Wallmart from when Glenn was buiilt until the fire station opened this week (well over 10 years).

Yes, there are many things that can be done to improve pedestrian safety, but if you can't even get continuous sidewalks, there's not much hope for the rest. Perhaps that is beginning to change. (About time for the anti-sidewalk folks to kick in).

On a more positive note, it sure would be nice to see some active encouragement to kids walking and biking to school, starting with efforts to address the safety concerns. See http://www.saferoute....org/index.html for some good ideas.

And one more fun statistic from the CDC: nearly 25% of all morning traffic is parents driving their kids to school. At that rate, even a good school bus system could dramatically reduce traffic congestion in Folsom.

[Sibley Resident]

Orangetj & Lembi Resident:

I know that our commuters are on a learning curve and Lembi has been dealing with a lot of traffic. Does it look like these people are starting to learn they need to use the arterial system yet?

[Orangetj]

Sibley Resident,

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that people have figured this out yet. As I type this, I'm looking out of my window at the intersection of Lembi and Sibley. What I see is lots and lots of cars turning right on Lembi from Sibley and quite a few doing U-Turns on Sibley as they get to the barrier. I really don't understand what is so confusing about the "road closed" sign placed on Sibley. Do people just think this doesn't apply to them? I also see a large number of cars coming down Lembi anticipating a right turn onto Sibley. Generally, they sit there for a second looking at the barrier and then turn left onto Sibley. Over the past few days, I've seen maybe 10 cars go around the barrier on the sidewalk, but today the city has put yellow tape across the sidewalk - presumably to discourage this behavior.

One unwelcome side effect of the closure I've seen is that virtually nobody stops at Lembi before turning right onto it from Sibley. I wonder if people, knowing that they will not have any cars turning left from southbound Sibley onto Lembi, just figure there's no reason to stop. Many of the cars I see really don't even slow down before making the turn, they just swing wide and cruise around the corner at 20 - 25 mph and then speed on up the hill. It's ridiculous.

Despite all that, the traffic volume and noise does seem to be reduced on the south side of the closure, but it's less of a reduction than I had expected. Hey, I'll take what I can get! I am very glad for the improvement in quality of life for those on the north side of the closure and I do hope the trial period proves successful.

OrangeTJ