147 replies to this topic

[bishmasterb]

Religion begins with answers.

Science begins with questions.

[supermom]

Supermom, you seem as though you're offended by people raising questions about the basis for religious faith -- as if such a discussion should be off-limits. I don't understand that at all. If I say "I like Hillary Clinton," others feel free to jump in and say why they disagree with her. Why should religion be any different? I've enjoyed hearing all the religious folks' views (though I find them unpersuasive), and I've enjoyed hearing from my fellow skeptics.

Often religious people will try to explain how they "know" God exists by pointing to a deep feeling within themselves. "I just know." "I've felt God's spirit within me."

I find this very bizarre. In what other circumstance do we look WITHIN OURSELVES to find out some truth about the universe? "I wanted to know what the moon is made of, so I looked deeply within myself and was overcome by the feeling that it is made of cheese." --I'm just saying, "inside ourselves" is a strange place to look if we want to know if something exists out in the universe.

So what if you feel some warm, slightly intoxicated or peaceful feeling when you "look within yourself"? What's that supposed to prove? Isn't it likely just the product of a brain state -- great relaxation or emotional awareness? Or, do we think that God has planted this feeling (we call "faith") within certain people, like a hidden seed or maybe homing device?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I am honestly trying to examine this "feeling" that people believe proves the existence of God to them.

naw, I'm not offended by people raising questions in Faith. But when one states that they don't believe in my faith --I accept that. However, when one states that because of past misdeeds or horrors--one can not believe in my faith--I question the veracity of that persons strength within themselves. I think that in reality CostcoLover wants to be Christian--is afraid to committ--so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions. What do you really believe?

And I don't see you as being disrespectful. I'm certainly not a minister and haven't been trained in how to answer your questions. Frankly, though I know the bible and have read it multiple times, I still can't quote from it: so I'm probably not the greatest person to ask about why. I've grown up with christianity as a part of my life. I have refuted the authority of several churches as worthy of being "vessels" to do the lords work--in missionary and even teaching bible studies.
One church I flat out won't even enter. Not all lay people are decent people. Not all Christians are decent people. Not all ministers should teach.

I can say this, though. I went through a period in my life where I denounced God. Not because of bad things that were happening in my life--but rather because I felt I had not learned enough about other religions for me to consider that maybe my beliefs were jaded or singularly directed.
It was during the triumphs of happiness--that I realized I was happiest when I acknowledged my beliefs in God.

So see--I'm not offended at others questioning why--
And because no one here can defend history, I am mystified why others would place so much angst on the past. Get over it. Move on. Live in the here and now.

[supermom]

SuperMom..."Your faith is like any other relationship you have. You must always work on nurturing it. You may make mistakes and therefore you may need to slow down and repair what has gone awry--but if you are committed in your faith in that relationship--you will blossom."
The really BIG difference is I KNOW my wife exist and I KNOW we have a relationship. I don't have just faith, I really know it!

I don't think I have a relationship to a Big White Rabbit, as Christians feel they have a relationship to what they think is God.

Again, if God really existed, why doesn't he make himself known and undeniable????

Just answer that question! Why doesn't he??????

Because God said in the Testament that it would be better for him to let Man live on without his presence.
It is our duty to live as Christians in the way he taught and has been passed down for many generations.

So, yes, it is a big leap of faith for you to believe that God is real. But so is your faith that your wife will come home every night. Do you imagine her voice or do you really hear it on the phone? How do know someone hasn't actually recorded it and is playing a sick prank on you?
How can you have faith--but not be able to stretch it beyond what you can touch or hear or see?

[CostcoLover]

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Bible and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

Which version of the Bible would that be? Which translation?

Here's a few of the more than 50 versions (of the English translation) of the Bible. http://www.bible-res...m/versions.html

Which of the 33,830 Christian denominations?

Besides knowing the source - (a question which I assume you've skipped, but if you haven't and have come to a better answer than numerous biblical scholars and theologists, by all means, share the knowledge) of the 'inerrant' Bible we have to track each version and translation so that we know we have the 'right' one.

Once you're past knowing the source, version and translation, then we can move on to the interpretation of said version and translation and corresponding denomination to ensure you're on the right track. Then you'd need to belong to the correct denomination of the 33,800 denominations and within that one, with the correct version and translation of the Bible, you'd have to have the right interpretation.

So tell me, which Bible is the 'right', inerrant version and why?

By the way, there are many religious texts in the world. We're jumping to the conclusion that Christianity is the right one, but here's a list in case you're unfamiliar with some of these others.

http://www.adherents...influbooks.html


And here is how your comment would look with a small sampling of these.

EDIT: The text below is not to be attributed to MSgt. It is simply meant as an example that the same can be said of any religious text. Feel free to attribute the text below to me.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Qur'an and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Bhagavad Gita and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Talmud and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Book of Mormon and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Dianetics and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Kitab-i-Iqan and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Divine Teachings of Kyososama and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Nihon Shoki and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

I ask questions all the time. I spend hours in studing the Tao Te Ching and I find love, faith, hope, healing, and more answers than I could ever dream to ask.

[CostcoLover]

I think that in reality CostcoLover wants to be Christian--is afraid to committ--so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions. What do you really believe?

Since you ask, I think that in reality supermom wants to be an Atheist -is afraid to commit- so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions (which by the way you've not answered).

Yours is a statement that truly only religious people can make because they can't bring themselves to believe that others don't think or believe like they do.

Is that what you tell your Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Hindu, etc. friends?

[Mrs.D]

I am completely fascinated with this thread. I am impressed by the people sharing their own thoughts and explaining why they don't understand the opposite view. I think by stating what you don't understand you are opening the door for an explanation and many people have tried to be respectful in their responses. However, I am confused by people that have responded not with an explanation but by name calling or by stating the "denial" that the person is in.

Supermom, I have really related to so much of what you post on this forum, but I have to say that I disagree with so much of what you have shared on this thread. It seems that your perspective of what is being said by fellow posters is so different from mine. I am puzzled by this. What makes you say that CostcoLover wants to be a Christian? I didn't see the posts from CostcoLover as making claims or attacks about my beliefs, just sharing his thoughts on the subject.


I am a Methodist, although not a very good one. I don't know what that label means to most people but my guess is that it isn't what the label means to me. To me a Methodist is one who is methodical in their study of the bible. They read passages, connects them to what they know to be true, discusses/debates the interpretation with others, and then comes to a personal conclusion. I know that some people can use this process to make the bible support anything they want and that bothers me. But this process allows me to consider things from many perspectives and I believe it makes me be a better me...

As I sit pondering how to explain my belief system, I realize that there is no way for me to verbalize all aspects in a reasonable length for this forum. However, I want to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts and beliefs with us. It has been insightful and thought-provoking.

[CostcoLover]

Some more food for thought...

IMO, if you're going to subscribe to a religion and corresponding belief system, at a minimum it would be wise to question the source of the text which one is studying.



The book “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why” from Prof. Bart Ehrman can be described as an introduction to New Testament textual criticism for beginners, in which he explains the subject in the context of his own background, relating his journey from being an Evangelical Christian to becoming a world renowned New Testament scholar. Besides D. C. Parker’s “Living Text of the Gospels”, Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” seems to be the only book on textual criticism designed specifically for the non-expert readers.

In short, Ehrman explains the copying practises of the earliest period and how the texts of the New Testament writings were corrupted as they were copied and recopied. He begins by introducing the diverse writings produced by the early Christians, such as gospels, Acts, apocalypses, Church orders, apologies etc. Briefly, the formation of the canon is also discussed and we are informed about the literacy level among the early Christians. Thereafter we are introduced to the world of the copyists and Ehrman explains how the early scribes copied texts, the different types of errors that were made (intentional and unintentional) and the problems associated with the copying of texts.

It is quite interesting to learn that even pagan critics of Christianity, such as Celsus, were quite aware at an early date that the Christian writings were being corrupted by the scribes and even Origen had to complain about the numerous differences between the gospel manuscripts. Marcion, an early Christian, corrupted the text of certain New Testament writings available to him and Dionysius is quoted who complains that his own writings have been modified just as “the word of the Lord” had been tampered. Marcion, of course, accused other Christians of corrupting the texts. In an earlier writing, “The Orthodox Corruption of Scriptures”, Ehrman demonstrated in detail how proto-orthodox Christians corrupted the New Testament writings on occasions. It seems that the early Christians were quite aware that the writings in their possession had undergone corruption and were still being corrupted and they frequently accused each other of tampering with the texts.

I was amazed to learn how statistically small additions or deletions within texts could change the entire meaning of passages and even books. Ehrman discusses at length certain examples in this regard and shows that even unintentional changes can result in changes that alter the meaning of texts. To quote Ehrman (pp. 207-208):

“It would be wrong, however, to say - as people sometimes do - that the changes in our text have no real bearing on what the texts mean or on the theological conclusions that one draws from them. We have seen, in fact, that just the opposite is the case. In some instances, the very meaning is at stake depending on how one resolves a textual problem: Was Jesus an angry man? Was he completely distraught in the face of death? Did he tell his disciples that they could drink poison without being harmed? Did he let an adulteress off the hook with nothing but a mild warning? Is the doctrine of the Trinity explicitly taught in the New Testament? Is Jesus actually called the “unique God” there? Does the New Testament indicate that even the Son of God does not know when the end will come? The questions go on and on, and all of them are related to how one resolves difficulties in the manuscript tradition as it has come down to us.”

The above are just a few problems. Another interesting problem is whether the doctrine of the atonement is taught in the gospel according to Luke? Further, there are immense textual problems within passages such as the sayings on divorce and remarriage in the gospels1 and the Lord’s Prayer among others.

It is important to realize that Ehrman is not the first person to have discovered these textual problems. Instead, textual critics are quite familiar with them but seldom are these textual difficulties discussed in books aimed at the lay readers so that many people continue to adhere to the mistaken belief that there exist no significant textual problems within the New Testament effecting important theological matters. Clearly, shoddy apologists such as Giesler and Josh McDowell have done a lot to propagate a false image of the textual preservation of the gospel text - misleading countless around the globe. Ehrman sets the record straight. In another recent book, co-authored with Bruce Metzger, we read:

“Nor are these variant readings, taken as a whole, of little consequence. On the contrary, many prove to be critical for questions relating to the New Testament exegesis and theology.”2

Thus it would appear that scholars are now beginning to discuss the difficult issues more openly.

[folsombound]

I believe in God, but I don't believe in paying a minister 20% of my salary to tell me how to live, so that he can drive a Cadillac - plus I can talk to God for free anytime I want - don't need a middle man to do it for me.

IMO, too many religions these days are just a big $$ business - look how large some of the churches have become around here - it looks to me like those churches are more concerned with revenue income and building bigger places then they are about teaching people about God.

Why do people/religions need multi-million dollar super structures ? Is it because they are materialistic?

+1 and then some!

[October15]

I believe in God, but I don't believe in paying a minister 20% of my salary to tell me how to live, so that he can drive a Cadillac - plus I can talk to God for free anytime I want - don't need a middle man to do it for me.

IMO, too many religions these days are just a big $$ business - look how large some of the churches have become around here - it looks to me like those churches are more concerned with revenue income and building bigger places then they are about teaching people about God.

Why do people/religions need multi-million dollar super structures ? Is it because they are materialistic?

I can see how it could look that way-- and I have no idea which churches you're thinking of...

I know that Brad Franklin, pastor at Lakeside's big concern would be with connecting people with God...and using structures for that purpose...he has always seemed to me to be a very sincere and humble guy in my encounters with him-- which have been social and I don't attend his church- but do know some of his best friends very well. The pastors of Oak Hills, another very large area church took a pretty huge financial hit because-- after being on a retreat and reading what they were told they needed to do to be "successful" in terms of playing to the consumerism of the culture...they realized that they would not be following Jesus to take this path. They turned around and took a radically and costly different direction. Their biggest concern is becoming a church of authentic Jesus followers. I do not attend this church either but respect them from a distance.

[Carl G]

Put on your skeptical hat for a moment. Consider:

1) The Trinity concept is at best incredibly shaky and ambiguous in the OT; at worst, it's non-existent.
2) Early common era Christians, in the wake of creating a new religion, had to develop a way to demonstrate Christ's divinity while still holding firm to the mono-theistic traditions of Judaism.

Their solution, quite simply, would have been to create a logical inconsistency: God is one person and God is three person.

I think this is just something we will have to agree on to disagree.

Using the principle of letting Scripture interpret Scripture, I don't see anything in the OT that is shaky or ambiguous. I would think that most Christians would look at those passages I listed and see clearly the Trinity well established in the OT.

[wrabbit]

Because God said in the Testament that it would be better for him to let Man live on without his presence.
It is our duty to live as Christians in the way he taught and has been passed down for many generations.

So, yes, it is a big leap of faith for you to believe that God is real. But so is your faith that your wife will come home every night. Do you imagine her voice or do you really hear it on the phone? How do know someone hasn't actually recorded it and is playing a sick prank on you?
How can you have faith--but not be able to stretch it beyond what you can touch or hear or see?

It is YOUR duty to live in the way God taught you, not me. You are the one with the belief, so speak for yourself, please.

The answer to your question is easy. The answer is ...education.

If I thought my wife's voice on the phone were recorded, I think I'd be seeing a doctor and be told I was being paranoid.

Today, people who hear the voice of God are called "mental".
Thousands of years ago, they were called prophets.

Thousands of years ago we did not have an understanding of mental illness that we do today.
If those prophets were mentally ill when they wrote of God, would you know about it, or would you decide, reading what they wrote, they were prophets, because somebody told you to think that? Perhaps a thousand years from now someone will find a copy of "Star Wars" and think it's a true story!

It is also curious to me when people say the Bible was "Inspired by God". What is that?
Suppose I sit down right now, and say I feel God coming over me and feel he is telling me to correct the Bible? Would THAT be valuable to anyone? Or would I be called a nut case? How would you know God was not really coming over me to give me a message? Just how would I be different than one of those so called prophets back thousands years ago? Think about it.
At some time, one has to use a little common sense.

Maybe three hundred years ago, people would come running yelling that God was mad whenever the river flooded, the cows had no milk or the children got sick. These people probably couldn't read so took everything some priest told them, as truth. In those days the masses could not read or write. Only learned scholars could read and write. Today we read and get educated, and that is why many do not believe in God. Others think they do until they start reading the Bible, then find they can't possibly believe it. And yet others will say they believe in God, because they feel better when they go along and want everyone to think they are good people. But they've probably never even cracked the Bible open.

If one were to travel to Scotland they would find some people who really believe in what they call, "the little people". They believe that there are gnomes and will sit there, look you straight in the eyes, and swear they've seen them in the woods! Would you believe them? Would you go looking in the woods for gnomes?

This is just what I think of when people start talking about God, and what God wants us to do and what his plans are for us, and on, and on. Go ahead and believe in God, if you must, but please don't expect everyone else to buy into it because you say it's true. Please don't tell people they are going to Hell! That's a scare tactic that won't work on educated people. The masses are now able to read, remember?

I have yet to hear a Christian say they believe in God, but it's OK if others do not. I've heard a lot of sermons, a lot of quotes from the Bible and details about why God did this or that, but yet to hear anyone say it's OK NOT to believe in God.

If you believe in God, it's OK with me. I'm fine with it. There. Can you say it's Ok if I don't believe in God? I bet you can't because to you, everyone must believe as you do. Right?

[dlutz]

If one were to travel to Scotland they would find some people who really believe in what they call, "the little people". They believe that there are gnomes and will sit there, look you straight in the eyes, and swear they've seen them in the woods! Would you believe them? Would you go looking in the woods for gnomes?

OK,

Let's get one thing perfectly straight! YOU are totally off base here. I think you meant Ireland when you spoke of the "little people" and not Scotland. Scotland has "Haggis"!

A haggis is a small animal native to Scotland. Well when I say animal, actually it's a bird with vestigial wings - like the ostrich. Because the habitat of the haggis in exclusively mountainous, and because it is always found on the sides of Scottish mountains, it has evolved a rather strange gait. The poor thing has only three legs, and each leg is a different length - the result of this is that when hunting haggis, you must get them on to a flat plain - then they are very easy to catch - they can only run round in circles.

Oh and don't forget Nessie!

[swmr545]

I can say this, though. I went through a period in my life where I denounced God. Not because of bad things that were happening in my life--but rather because I felt I had not learned enough about other religions for me to consider that maybe my beliefs were jaded or singularly directed.
It was during the triumphs of happiness--that I realized I was happiest when I acknowledged my beliefs in God.

So see--I'm not offended at others questioning why--
And because no one here can defend history, I am mystified why others would place so much angst on the past. Get over it. Move on. Live in the here and now.

And my triumphs of happiness have come from when I accomplished something on my own and not attributing it to a higher being.

As for living in the "here and now", I have come across more hostility from "Christians" in my life than I have from any other religious group. You and many others claim that they aren't really "Christians", yet I don't see a big uproar from your community when they make public statements claiming that they are speaking for ALL Christians.

The first time I saw any backlash against them from the faith communities was at Sac Pride this past June. Yet on a daily basis, or even at other events, there is no one speaking out against them and their claims for all Christians in the US/world. Why?

I have a question for you supermom, do you take the teachings of the Bible literally? figuratively (ie a good story book like Aesops Fables)? or do you openly question its teachings? Also, with so many different versions of the Bible for each different branch of Christianity, how do you know that your belief is the one that will save you in the end? I don't want to sound condensending, but I can never get any answers from those I ask at the protests (although I know they look at the Bible literally). You claim you aren't a religious scholar, but I want to know what is your personal drive behind your belief system. And why it trumps all others when it comes to final judgement.

And in general, is it wrong to question the word of a religious text? Is it wrong to question a god?

[October15]

And my triumphs of happiness have come from when I accomplished something on my own and not attributing it to a higher being.

As for living in the "here and now", I have come across more hostility from "Christians" in my life than I have from any other religious group. You and many others claim that they aren't really "Christians", yet I don't see a big uproar from your community when they make public statements claiming that they are speaking for ALL Christians.

The first time I saw any backlash against them from the faith communities was at Sac Pride this past June. Yet on a daily basis, or even at other events, there is no one speaking out against them and their claims for all Christians in the US/world. Why?

I have a question for you supermom, do you take the teachings of the Bible literally? figuratively (ie a good story book like Aesops Fables)? or do you openly question its teachings? Also, with so many different versions of the Bible for each different branch of Christianity, how do you know that your belief is the one that will save you in the end? I don't want to sound condensending, but I can never get any answers from those I ask at the protests (although I know they look at the Bible literally). You claim you aren't a religious scholar, but I want to know what is your personal drive behind your belief system. And why it trumps all others when it comes to final judgement.

And in general, is it wrong to question the word of a religious text? Is it wrong to question a god?

1. I would think that your persecution from people who call themselves Christians would be more significant because you're in this country. If you lived in Egypt, you would likely be getting other kinds of persecution.

2. Sad to say...my experience would be that you aren't going to have ANY real dialogue with the kinds of people who are carrying "God hates fags" signs. So...I'd ignore them...and read the Serenity Prayer...because people this dug in (God believers or athiests) fall into the category of
"things I cannot change" and you need the wisdom to know the difference. If you feel the need to challenge Christians, dialog with those who are asking questions and not holding signs...!

3. In terms of why Christians don't speak out when people act in ways like this and call themselves followers of Jesus...I ask the same things...my wife is probably very tired of me railing on about it. But...again...refer to #2 in terms of being able to change fundamentalists ways of thinking. When they protested at our church for speaking out...we tried to talk with the son as he seemed to be open to some amount of dialogue. If there's another protest in our town...I'll be there with my own kind of sign.

[MSgt]

Which version of the Bible would that be? Which translation?

What's going on here? I write how I find answers and get hope from studying the Bible and you feel the need to ridicule that? You take my posts and turn them into something other than what I said?