105 replies to this topic

[palango]

Don't forget that a lot of the immigrants have succussful children who went throught the same educational system as the rest of the Californians. I went to high school in Monta Vista in Cupertino, home of Apple Computers. While I was there, I was just a handful of Asian students there. Last I heard, the majority are Asian and the Caucasian kids attending the school are just giving up because they can't compete against the Asian kids.

While the school system isn't the best, people still manage to have bright kids graduate from it.

Great point. I second that. This is why parental involvement and parents steering kids towards (happy and mart steer; NOT the crazy pressure) towards marketable fields that will make sense for their future and NOT the typical " if you want to a garbage driver, be the best and I will support you " BS. If you say that and mean it to your kids and they STRUGGLE just to make ends meet, it is ALL your fault.

[DalOwnerX3]

Great point. I second that. This is why parental involvement and parents steering kids towards (happy and mart steer; NOT the crazy pressure) towards marketable fields that will make sense for their future and NOT the typical " if you want to a garbage driver, be the best and I will support you " BS. If you say that and mean it to your kids and they STRUGGLE just to make ends meet, it is ALL your fault.

Actually I heard garbage men...er sanitation engineers make some pretty good money.

[chris v]

Great point. I second that. This is why parental involvement and parents steering kids towards (happy and mart steer; NOT the crazy pressure) towards marketable fields that will make sense for their future and NOT the typical " if you want to a garbage driver, be the best and I will support you " BS. If you say that and mean it to your kids and they STRUGGLE just to make ends meet, it is ALL your fault.

What if they have a degree and struggle to make ends meet like so many in this state. A mechanical engineer fresh out of school will not make enough to own a house in this state.

[DalOwnerX3]

What if they have a degree and struggle to make ends meet like so many in this state. A mechanical engineer fresh out of school will not make enough to own a house in this state.

I'm not sure if anybody can afford to own a house coming fresh out of school. Doctors and lawyers may have the income but they will be saddled with a lot of debt. The point I belive Palango is trying to make is that at least with a mechanical engineering degree, there's a high probability of landing a well paying job that will eventually allow one to buy a house. There probably aren't a lot of jobs for history or philisophy major.

[stacycam]

Actually I heard garbage men...er sanitation engineers make some pretty good money.

It's Collection Equipment Operator. I think it's every young boy's (age 2-5) dream job. That and construction equipment drivers (not sure what they are called).

I think it has gotten to the point that if you don't have a degree, you will have a long road uphill. I know working in HR, I watched many job specs change the minimum qualifications to require degrees. I see the jobs available to those who do not hold a degree, and there just aren't the options anymore.

It sounds like you have done great, Chris, but I'm betting you're hoping your son (and the little bean) gets a degree. It will open many more doors.

[Andrea V]

It's Collection Equipment Operator. I think it's every young boy's (age 2-5) dream job. That and construction equipment drivers (not sure what they are called).

I think it has gotten to the point that if you don't have a degree, you will have a long road uphill. I know working in HR, I watched many job specs change the minimum qualifications to require degrees. I see the jobs available to those who do not hold a degree, and there just aren't the options anymore.

It sounds like you have done great, Chris, but I'm betting you're hoping your son (and the little bean) gets a degree. It will open many more doors.

Chris just hates the expectation that some one is better at doing a certain job then someone else JUST because they have a degree.....

but yes, our kids WILL GO TO COLLEGE! Even if the kid does have a natural talent, like his dad (and g-pa) to be an engineer.

[stacycam]

FWIW, I think many college-educated people are idiots. Sometimes I am amazed at how clueless people can be.

IMO, one of the biggest benefits of college is that students learn how to communicate better. You are taught how to write, and (sometimes) speak better. Often it's very easy to tell if someone is well-educated just by their writing (generalization here, I know it's not ALWAYS true).

I found that for me, personally, I felt inadequate for not having a degree. So, I picked a subject that was easy for me (Economics) and got my Bachelor's degree when I was almost 30. While I am happy to have my degree, I have never worked in the field or used my degree. I am considering a second career in teaching, so I guess then my degree will be useful.

If your son has a natural gift, AND goes to college, he will be a force to be reckoned with. I know some incredibly smart and gifted people who were blocked simply because they did not have the degree. While it sucks, that's the way it is now.

[wrabbit]

Yep, a lot of doors get slammed shut because of a damned piece of paper.

Many companies just can't afford to test a person out, to make sure they know, what they say they know.
They could lose a ton of money if they hired people that way.

AND, with a degree, they check your grade point average, to see what you really know.

With the competition in the job market, college degree holders get the first shot at getting hired.

[chris v]

I know for fact in my line of work that a good handful of the kids fresh out of school with their degrees cannot apply it to the real world. A couple of the brightest people where I work never went to college. We have one new engineer who is extremely bright, while there is 3 new ones that will not last. There definately needs to be some sort of work experience requirement for these degrees. These guys are designing parts for machines and they have no idea how to make them, which is actually very important. I think the biggest point is, you can force feed anybody information, what they do with it is up to them. Some people just aren't creative enough. I don't remember the actual statistic but it's something like 8 out of every 10 people hate/dread going to work... I'll tell you what, I've been working in this industry since I was 15 years old, and I still love going to work everyday. Being happy with what you are going to do for the next 30-40 years is way more important to me than how much you make.

[Andrea V]

He is not lying, he really LOVES his job.

[stacycam]

You're right Chris, but none of that matters when it comes down to it. If those guys are so smart, and have that great real-world knowledge, they'll be even better with a degree. However, there ARE lines of work that a degree doesn't help. You say you are an engineer, and I know nothing about what you do, so I don't know if that typically requires a degree. I do know civil engineers, electrical engineers, etc, absolutely DO need the education.

I WISH I loved my job. Unfortunately for me I just floated around and fell into my job. It was a very good job for a young person and didn't really even require a degree - when I started. Of course, now it does. Anyway, I hope to someday find a job I love.

Also, I have a friend who has her B.A, and M.A. and she could not be more clueless about the work world. She never worked, and once she had her degrees she thought she knew everything. She figured if it was written in a book, it was true. Not hardly!

Anyway, I totally agree with you, Chris, but I think the reality is that education has become a priority.

[palango]

He is not lying, he really LOVES his job.

Good for him. He loves his job. He does not have a college degree and he makes good $$ to take care of his family. That is a DREAM situation, but as a whole, it is also true that many employers, including State of CA, are paying a higher premium for a college degree.
Now that jobs are getting shipped to India and China in record #'s, how many of non college degree jobs will remain in the US??? That is a question that we can only speculate on, BUT if you look at "trends", it would be absolutely foolish to steer children away from college and into fields that will not be prfitable/marketable for them.

[EDH Jen]

Yep, a lot of doors get slammed shut because of a damned piece of paper.

Many companies just can't afford to test a person out, to make sure they know, what they say they know.
They could lose a ton of money if they hired people that way.

AND, with a degree, they check your grade point average, to see what you really know.

With the competition in the job market, college degree holders get the first shot at getting hired.

That's not necessarily true. Although I was a stellar student, graduated at the top of my class, and was accepted to UC Davis, the bottom line was I couldn't afford it, and because I had a wealthy absentee father, I didn't qualify for financial aid.
So, I quit school buried in debt, and entered the work force at 19 years old. While I used to always dread the question about my degree (or lack thereof), I learned quickly that I needed to work hard and smart, and it's paid off well The fact that I don't have a degree has not factored into my employability or promotability.
(I love those conversations I happen upon here at work where a group is talking about where they earned their doctorate, their second master's etc, and when asked, I say proudly, "I have a high school diploma.")
While I would love for my kids to go to college, the fact is, that may not be the choice that they make. I'm certainly encouraging that route, but I acknowledge it's not the only route.

[chris v]

Good for him. He loves his job. He does not have a college degree and he makes good $$ to take care of his family. That is a DREAM situation, but as a whole, it is also true that many employers, including State of CA, are paying a higher premium for a college degree.
Now that jobs are getting shipped to India and China in record #'s, how many of non college degree jobs will remain in the US??? That is a question that we can only speculate on, BUT if you look at "trends", it would be absolutely foolish to steer children away from college and into fields that will not be prfitable/marketable for them.

I'm not talking about steering kids away from college. My son will be given the choice to go to college. If he wants to take another route, but it is a good choice then I will support him. What I won't do is force him to be an engineer or a docter.

[palango]

I'm not talking about steering kids away from college. My son will be given the choice to go to college. If he wants to take another route, but it is a good choice then I will support him. What I won't do is force him to be an engineer or a docter.

True. You cannot FORCE anyone to do anything. The power of pesuation comes into play. You want to give your kid every competitive advantage short of anything illegal or cheating. You do not want to be overbearing and out of control either, but let me tell you, I WISH I WISH my parents had pushed me harder.