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Railway - Folsom To Placerville


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#76 supermom

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 10:58 AM

It really doesn't matter what I say at this point. I was defending myself against an attack from Jeff, who obviously has beef with me. So whatever. You guys go play trains. I never said I was against dual usage of the area, it's just not feasible. So in my defense I merely stated my opinion which is obviously not popular here and got jumped from all sides.



I didn't jump you.

why do you think the idea is not feasible? Are you concerned with the safety of a train coming up behind a biker on a sharp turn? Is it because of the costs?

#77 supermom

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:03 AM

There was an excusrsion train in the Bay Area, when I was a kid. Pretty rickety. Huge fun. Always full. Large families always had a hard time getting seated together.

#78 tony

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:05 AM

A huge boon to the economy? From who? The cyclist? Are you talking about the same spandex wearing/pack riding wanna be Lance Armstrongs? When it comes to being cheap they are about one step higher than a tree hugger. I see them come through the airport every Wednesday night. They own the roads and go flying through the stop signs. Taking my kids to school this morning, Mr. spandex goes flying through the stop sign in front of the school.

You think these guys are going to stop along the way and purchase things at the mom and pop stores and keep this economy booming? Hell they don't even stop for stop signs. To them its a race to get from point A to point B and back again. Get that bike back on their Honda Civic and back home. Whoever is telling you these guys are going to drop some serious coin along the route is pulling your leg.

Ever been to the Sutter St. Grille or Karen's bakery on a Friday or Saturday morning? Bicyclists spend plenty of money (otherwise there wouldn't be so many bike shops in town, as someone else noted). Why do you think the Folsom Tourism Bureau did an entire campaign focused on cycling? Because cyclists (not just the spandex-wearing ones) do spend money. In fact, on average, they spend more money than other groups because they tend to be in higher income brackets.

#79 Howdy

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

Ever been to the Sutter St. Grille or Karen's bakery on a Friday or Saturday morning? Bicyclists spend plenty of money (otherwise there wouldn't be so many bike shops in town, as someone else noted). Why do you think the Folsom Tourism Bureau did an entire campaign focused on cycling? Because cyclists (not just the spandex-wearing ones) do spend money. In fact, on average, they spend more money than other groups because they tend to be in higher income brackets.


Gotcha, So they spend money on baked goods and bike supplies. But they are not going to stop along this Folsom to Lake Tahoe trail at the local hardware store and buy that new lawn mower and attach it to their bike for the ride home. Or maybe stop off at some antique store along the trail and purchase a chair or a desk. Where on their bike are they going to put that new tv or computer they purchased to help out these local economies. You and I both know that they are out there to get a workout and ride the trail. Not to do their weekend grocery shopping and running errands for big ticket items.

The little sundries or croissant they buy at the beginning or end of their ride might be helping the one or two stores that have a big enough parking lot to let these people store their cars for a few hours while they ride, but I surely don't think this it the "boom" to the economy that is to be expected.

#80 Folsom_Blues

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:14 PM

Gotcha, So they spend money on baked goods and bike supplies. But they are not going to stop along this Folsom to Lake Tahoe trail at the local hardware store and buy that new lawn mower and attach it to their bike for the ride home. Or maybe stop off at some antique store along the trail and purchase a chair or a desk.


Oh, but the train users will! Got it.

;)

#81 Folsom_Blues

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:23 PM

Funny that an avid train buff like myself is branded anti-rail here!

Tony's right. The corridor will see much more use as a multi-use trail not to mention WAY more cost effective.

Ideally, we would be able to have a situation like this: http://www.ohioander...tionsRails.aspx But it just can't happen here. There just isn't enough ROW to accommodate both uses. So, should we pick the mode that allows some people to see it at some times for an exorbitant cost? Or should we allow many people to use it most of the time at a pittance of the cost? It's really a no brainer.

I would like to see maximum trail development WITHOUT touching the rail bed. Then once trail users hit the "end" of the line, a massive groundswell of support will be created to complete the trail.

#82 tony

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:42 PM

Gotcha, So they spend money on baked goods and bike supplies. But they are not going to stop along this Folsom to Lake Tahoe trail at the local hardware store and buy that new lawn mower and attach it to their bike for the ride home. Or maybe stop off at some antique store along the trail and purchase a chair or a desk. Where on their bike are they going to put that new tv or computer they purchased to help out these local economies. You and I both know that they are out there to get a workout and ride the trail. Not to do their weekend grocery shopping and running errands for big ticket items.

The little sundries or croissant they buy at the beginning or end of their ride might be helping the one or two stores that have a big enough parking lot to let these people store their cars for a few hours while they ride, but I surely don't think this it the "boom" to the economy that is to be expected.

I would ignore this, but you hit a nerve. This is always the argument people make about bicycling being only good for recreation. It's patently false. Let's start with the antique store. While I might not bring home the dresser on my bike, I also might never get to that antique store if it weren't for the bike ride. Now that I've ridden there, I might drive back to purchase that too-big-to-carry item. If it wasn't for the bike ride, I would never have known that store existed. I've done it before.

Second, like hardware stores, antique stores sell lots of things that you can carry on a bike. I routinely ride my bike to the hardware store for random hardware, light bulbs, tools (power and otherwise), batteries, etc. Last I checked, people buy those things much more often than they do lawnmowers, yards of dirt, 4x8 sheets of plywood, etc. The last time I bought a lawnmower was almost 20 years ago. And, of course, you can get all those big things delivered if you want. Oh, and, yes, I have carried a wall mirror and a toaster oven on a bike, and a sink (bathroom, not the kitchen one) in a bike trailer. So I don't want to hear about bicyclists not spending money at non-restaurants. And, by the way, in those cute little towns, most of the money is spent at restaurants anyway.

And you're missing the point about the restaurants. The restaurants in the HD are a destination for bicyclists. Sure, some use it as a staging area and don't spend any money, but just as many ride from further down the bike trail, have lunch in Folsom and ride back. Those are people who would not be eating in Folsom if it were not for the bike trail. And along the way, they discover the rest of the offerings, and are more likely to come back.

Then, of course, there are events such as cyclebration, which draw from thrughout northern CA and result in hotel stays, and more restaurant income.

#83 Dude

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:01 PM

Oh, but the train users will! Got it.

;)


I don't recall anyone saying the train would.

#84 Dude

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:05 PM

...Ideally, we would be able to have a situation like this: http://www.ohioander...tionsRails.aspx But it just can't happen here.


And who are you to say it can't

#85 The Average Joe

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:29 PM

Seems to me the train folks are putting their money and effort where their beliefs lie. Why can't the cyclists do the same? Why can't they go up there and build their trail with their own money and effort? A series of fundraisers by those that "tend to be in higher income brackets" :P should work out well for you. BTW, not all cyclists are into or can afford 3000 dollars bikes, and it is precisely this attitude that turns so many casual (the vast majority) bikers off. You don't need the latest and greatest to ride cross country.

Seems to me the train proponents are trying to revive something, the bikes are trying to replace something. It also appears that the cyclist only crowd wants a pretty sweet deal with minimal effort.
The train people have few alternatives, the bike people many. If you want to bike from here to Tahoe, you can find a way. I think both groups may be guilty of insular thought (being surrounded by those that agree with them).
I have ridden far more miles on bikes than trains, but I am for both if possible, and train only if it HAS to be one or the other

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#86 Howdy

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:35 PM

I would ignore this, but you hit a nerve. ........................


I am going to ignore this. My interest has in your argument waned.

I don't recall anyone saying the train would.


Exactly. One of the bikers said that turning the rails to a bike trail would be a godsend for the economy. That argument was not made in defense of keeping the rails.

#87 tony

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:51 PM

... You and I both know that they are out there to get a workout and ride the trail. Not to do their weekend grocery shopping and running errands for big ticket items.

BTW, speak for yourself. Let's see, so far this month I've ridden slightly over 300 miles. And how many of those were "to get a workout and ride the trail"? Oh, maybe 30, and always on the way to somewhere else ( a couple extra miles for exercise). That would be 16 round trips to work, 14 trips to to school with the kids, and about 20 trips to ballgames, grocery stores, drug stores, hardware stores, baseball practices, breakfast, lunch and dinner. And probably 1/3 to 1/2 of those commute and errand miles are done on Folsom's bike paths. El Dorado county currently doesn't provide similar transportation options in much of the county. The El Dorado Trail will be the backbone of the county's human-powered transportation network, and will be a great recreational asset as well.

I am going to ignore this. My interest has in your argument waned.


OK, so that wasn't a very good introduction...

#88 The Average Joe

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:07 PM

You are not "the norm." Nor typical. I too used to ride around 300+ miles a month, do shopping etc on my bike. It's great, but to project that onto everyone else as the norm is silly.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#89 tony

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:25 PM

You are not "the norm." Nor typical. I too used to ride around 300+ miles a month, do shopping etc on my bike. It's great, but to project that onto everyone else as the norm is silly.

It's as much the norm as the spandex crowd on $3000 road bikes. That's even more silly. And more and more, it is becoming the norm (norm for bicyclists, certainly not the norm for the "average Joe", so to speak). My point is that characterizing bicyclists by the $3000-bike spandex crowd is just as wrong as suggesting that bikes are useless for shopping.

#90 SacKen

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:03 AM

It really doesn't matter what I say at this point. I was defending myself against an attack from Jeff, who obviously has beef with me. So whatever. You guys go play trains. I never said I was against dual usage of the area, it's just not feasible. So in my defense I merely stated my opinion which is obviously not popular here and got jumped from all sides.

LOL... you got jumped on because you weren't capable of having a conversation without getting amped up and all chest-thumpy like you were about to get into a bar fight because you were losing a verbal discussion. *sigh* Anyway...

I hadn't heard anything about this until I participated in the Folsom Hand Car Derby over the weekend. They had the excursion train running and we took my son on it. While on the ride, I asked one of the guys about the excursion to Placerville since I remembered hearing about it a couple years ago. Since then, I chatted with a couple more people and did a little reading on it all.

As a newcomer just finding out about it all, to me it seems like the rail folks are fully supporting dual use and the bike folks are being the difficult ones that don't want to cooperate. My spidey sense also gives me a strong suspicion that there's a large portion of the "bike" folks that never actually ride a bike that actually moves and doesn't have a TV attached to the front. They are probably NIMBYs that live near the track and don't want the train.

As for the use of a bike trail? Let's get real... not only will general recreation users probably not use the bike trail that much, the power users won't want them to. Much like the other trails around here, they'll blast along way too fast and yell at anyone that gets in their way and suck all the fun out of bringing a kid out to ride their bike on the trail. Couple that with all the dog walkers crapping-up the trail and I say, eff em'! If you can't play nice and make it dual use, then ride your bike down the side streets that already exist. I'd rather see dual use, though.

I think if they could get to the point of getting a brunch/lunch/dinner train running, it could be rather successful if done correctly. Otherwise, it would be a neat touristy, weekend thing to do but would probably not be something that becomes known outside of the region.
"Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!" -- George Carlin




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