537 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

Chad, that is a very scary study, from a very respected British newspaper.

I have read similar things in the past few days, also in mainstream news sources. One article I read stated that Western Europe is at a breaking point in terms of tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims. Evidently, Europe has had much more Muslim immigration than we have had. Many young Muslims are profoundly alienated from European society. They are ripe for conversion by radical forces. In Britain, at least, there is a concerted effort to co-opt these young Muslims through radical mosques and organized youth outreach programs.

The articles implied that we are not at the same crisis point here in the U.S., because we have less Muslim immigration and the Muslims who live here are better integrated with well-paying jobs, etc.

It is difficult to find the balance between not succumbing to undue prejudice, while at the same time having a healthy concern about the rise of alienated and potentially violent forces in one's country. Many news articles are now placing significant blame on British authorities for having their heads in the sand about the growth of radical Islamic forces in London and other English cities.

We don't want to be Chicken Littles, but the realities that Chad is describing should not be ignored, either.

[Chad Vander Veen]

I disagree.

How can you disagree, in the face of irrefutable proof, that Folsomites can have legitimate fear or concern about a mosque?

Personally, I doubt 1% of Folsom Muslims want to kill me or anyone else, but the numbers are real and very much justify local concern.

You seem to now be disagreeing simply because I proved you wrong (in a glorious cavalcade of facts and figures you surely did not expect me to dig up! j/k sort of)

[Cloud9]

That was a good one. I enjoyed that last sentence, really.

I'm between business calls so my answers may be brief at times.

I disagree because I don't believe that 1% from a study in Britain correlates to 1% in Folsom unless previously we've been able to show a strong correlation between Britain and Folsom.

[Chad Vander Veen]

  That was a good one.  I enjoyed that last sentence, really.

I'm between business calls so my answers may be brief at times. 

I disagree because I don't believe that 1% from a study in Britain correlates to 1% in Folsom unless previously we've been able to show a strong correlation between Britain and Folsom.

Now you're really running around the truth. First, Britain is composed of three nations, so comparing it to a single US city doesn't make sense. Second, I doubt there would be any study I could find that would force you to admit your stunning defeat in this debate.

[Cloud9]

You get funnier by the minute.

The only thing you've proven is that you continue to ignore 1.298 billion non terrorist and non terrorist supporting Muslims.

Look, in America, you can say that 5% of the population in N.C. skydives (airborne) or 3% in Georgia (Ft. Benning), etc. you can't then say, that it's reasonable to assume that since we're Americans in Folsom that 3-5% of the population here skydives. That's just not how it works.

There are many factors, and unless you can show a high degree of correlation between Britain and Folsom Muslims, you can't come to that conclusion.

[Chad Vander Veen]

  You get funnier by the minute.

The only thing you've proven is that you continue to ignore 1.298 billion non terrorist and non terrorist supporting Muslims.

I'm not ignoring that. In fact, I've advocated that very point repeatedly.

Look, in America, you can say that 5% of the population in N.C. skydives (airborne) or 3% in Georgia (Ft. Benning), etc.  you can't then say, that it's reasonable to assume that since we're Americans in Folsom that 3-5% of the population here skydives.  That's just not how it works.

There are many factors, and unless you can show a high degree of correlation between Britain and Folsom Muslims, you can't come to that conclusion.

Of course, but if you surveyed the entire country and found on average 2% skydive, then you could very well assume that 2% of the people in every town skydive.

And on the world stage, there is no other country more similar to the US than the UK. If one percent of Muslims there support terror, it is not unreasonable to figure the same (or similar) is true in the US.

I win again.

[bishmasterb]

So in theory all 50 states can do so and make the first amendment meaningless?

If you could get 50 sovereign entities to all agree on the same thing, I'd buy you dinner.

The first amendment clearly applies only to the federal government, it says "Congress shall make no law...". It doesn't say anything about the states. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it just IS.

Obviously the federal government, in their infinite wisdom, has ignored the text of the first amendment and decided to make laws in two areas that are unconstitutional:

1) Taking the power away from the states and people to create laws regarding religion and speech.
2) Congress makes laws themselves that limit speech (campaign finance law, hate speech, workplace speech restrictions, etc.).

[Cloud9]

Of course, but if you surveyed the entire country and found on average 2% skydive, then you could very well assume that 2% of the people in every town skydive.

Once you go down the assumption path... well, you know the old arse-u-me saying.

You could only arrive at that conclusion when you show strong correlation between the populations.

It's those assumptions that get passed along like a game of 'telephone' and bring all kinds of unreasonable fears to the general population.

[Chad Vander Veen]

Once you go down the assumption path... well, you know the old arse-u-me saying.

You could only arrive at that conclusion when you show strong correlation between the populations.

It's those assumptions that get passed along like a game of 'telephone' and bring all kinds of unreasonable fears to the general population.

Nah, untrue. You survey the US population and ask how many times they go to fast food a week. If the response is 1-3 times you can very safely assume that number is true for any given US municipality.

ANd Cloud, what is your point, afterall? Are you contending that Folsom residents have no valid reason to fear or be concerned about a mosque coming to town?

Are you saying concerned citizens are equal to or worse than Nazis and Communists combined?

[mylo]

2. Of the billion or so Muslisms there are out there, only 1 or 2 percent likely support terrorism. However, 1 or 2 percent of a billion is still 1 or 2 million.

1 percent of a billion is 10 million.. if you're going to count radical terrorists, at least do the math right

[Chad Vander Veen]

1 percent of a billion is 10 million.. if you're going to count radical terrorists, at least do the math right

You caught me...I didnt want to scare anyone.

[mylo]

Heck, in our own country, among our own people, plenty oppose abortion, that doesn't move them into terrorist activity of bombing clinics.

Then why does my mothers office (attached to a Planned Parenthood clinic) get evacuated for bomb threats on a monthly basis?

[mylo]

Look, in America, you can say that 5% of the population in N.C. skydives (airborne) or 3% in Georgia (Ft. Benning), etc.  you can't then say, that it's reasonable to assume that since we're Americans in Folsom that 3-5% of the population here skydives.  That's just not how it works.

Skydiving centers around regional airports. You'd be better off comparing Folsom to mid-sized metropolitan areas approximately 1 hour away from dropzone airports. I'm sure that information is published somewhere in an FAA handbook and you could analyze those cities in comparison to NC and Georgia and derive a statistically close estimate. No, it's not precise science, but when you're comparing apples and oranges you've gotta bet on the "fruit". I think comparing the UK to the US is perfectly reasonable in this fruit basket.

p.s. As of the census of 2000, there are 51,884 people in Folsom. I skydive, so we're up to .00002% in this survey. However, this thread only has 19 posters (not counting multiple posts), so by that count we're 5.26% skydivers, close enough to your range

[Cloud9]

Nah, untrue. You survey the US population and ask how many times they go to fast food a week. If the response is 1-3 times you can very safely assume that number is true for any given US municipality.

ANd Cloud, what is your point, afterall? Are you contending that Folsom residents have no valid reason to fear or be concerned about a mosque coming to town?

Are you saying concerned citizens are equal to or worse than Nazis and Communists combined?

On the first point, that's because we can draw a correlation between Americans.

You can't even get Catholics to agree on birth control, abortion, etc. what makes you think you can draw a positive correlation between the statistical populations in British and Folsom Muslims? Simply because they share the same religion?

My point is that Folsom residents are projecting the fears of Muslims in other parts of the world to the mosque building activities of the Muslims in Folsom.

Who said anything about Nazis and Communists?

[mylo]

My point is that Folsom residents are projecting the fears of Muslims in other parts of the world to the mosque building activities of the Muslims in Folsom. 

What about Lodi?

Sing it with me now!

./~ It's a small world after all ./~ It's a small world after all ./~