147 replies to this topic

[supermom]

Supermom, I have really related to so much of what you post on this forum, but I have to say that I disagree with so much of what you have shared on this thread. It seems that your perspective of what is being said by fellow posters is so different from mine. I am puzzled by this. What makes you say that CostcoLover wants to be a Christian? I didn't see the posts from CostcoLover as making claims or attacks about my beliefs, just sharing his thoughts on the subject.

Ha--the first church I was introduced to--was Methodist.

I wasn't a very good Methodist, either.

I can't prescribe to a church that insists rejecting the valididty of other peoples lives/llifestyles because it is wrong on the eyes of man.

Further, I don't go actively seeking quotes in the bible to tell me something is not christian and therefore should not be accepted. That's Gods job-not mine.

It is YOUR duty to live in the way God taught you, not me. You are the one with the belief, so speak for yourself, please.

At some time, one has to use a little common sense.


I have yet to hear a Christian say they believe in God, but it's OK if others do not. I've heard a lot of sermons, a lot of quotes from the Bible and details about why God did this or that, but yet to hear anyone say it's OK NOT to believe in God.

If you believe in God, it's OK with me. I'm fine with it. There. Can you say it's Ok if I don't believe in God? I bet you can't because to you, everyone must believe as you do. Right?

Wrabbitt, I'm not sure why you are throwing all this at me. Go back and re-read my earlier posts. It is your choice whether or not you choose to live a christian life. Those that do make that choice are not perfect and must make a choice to strive towards their goal.

Re-read the reply on this post to Mrs. D, too. Does it really sound like I have all the answers or am condemning you for your beliefs?

Sadly, I must say you are wrong about this last quote. I am ok with you saying that you don't believe in God. I'm sure you have had ample time in your life to make that decision. I am not a missionary and wouldn't try to be so. I struggle enough with my own challenges--is that good enough for you?----'cause sometimes I wonder why so many people get so defensive when I say I believe in God. Yes, I believe that not repenting in your sins will send you to hell, but if your ok with that, then so am I.

As for living in the "here and now", I have come across more hostility from "Christians" in my life than I have from any other religious group. You and many others claim that they aren't really "Christians", yet I don't see a big uproar from your community when they make public statements claiming that they are speaking for ALL Christians.

True, they are at best "challenged in their education of christianity" and they should not ever speak out and say they speak for all Christians---but you are getting self defensive by my posts and confusing their shades of acceptance with mine. I can't speak for every person in the world or every group out there--but I can say that the LG community is hardly a spotlight on my life right now. I find it difficult to condemn any person--as I said above--I leave that to God.
The few exceptions are people who cause real harm to other people. Should a LG person rape another human then I would treat them the same as a hetero- rapist.
Live your life--you won't hear grief from me. As I've stated before, I believe in Gay rights--that pretty much puts me outside the fence on what a lot of your christian demonstrators think. (chuckle). I believe in the equanamity of individual lifestyles whether I agree with them being christian or not. So, no, I don't really identify with some of these "christian" anti-gay groups out there.

The first time I saw any backlash against them from the faith communities was at Sac Pride this past June. Yet on a daily basis, or even at other events, there is no one speaking out against them and their claims for all Christians in the US/world. Why?


I don't know--I find it troubling--as well. I dislike seeing "christians" create so much hostility towards other people.
But, you must remember--by and far--they are the fanatics--the majority of christians are embarrassed by these fanatics behavior. It's repulsive to me to demonstratively denounce another human being and so much emotional turmoil. What can I say? Just because I'm christian doesn't mean I agree with all other christians.
You have a lot of questions that have been asked by many people for man, many generations--I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask-and frankly I'm not sure I can give you answers that will satisfy your questions. I hope you understand that--I am afterall, just a layman.

I have a question for you supermom, do you take the teachings of the Bible literally? figuratively (ie a good story book like Aesops Fables)? or do you openly question its teachings?
It is difficult to not try to interpret the bible, at times. However, I try to accept it as it stands. Yes, I have read different versions on occasion--but I will not read man made "study guides" rarely can you find one that does not have its own interpretations in them.

Also, with so many different versions of the Bible for each different branch of Christianity, how do you know that your belief is the one that will save you in the end? I don't want to sound condensending, but I can never get any answers from those I ask at the protests (although I know they look at the Bible literally). You claim you aren't a religious scholar, but I want to know what is your personal drive behind your belief system. And why it trumps all others when it comes to final judgement.

I accept that there are limitations to the human mind and to their ability to express themselves in word, on paper and by deed. I certainly can't tell you which religious denomination is the right one--and I am of the mind that the denominations themselves really don't matter. Christianity is a very personal spiritual growth process. I believe that what you make of your life on earth is generally more important than what church you go to. In other words, a good christian is not limited by their church if they are conscientious enough to understand what being a christian means.
So, that belief does trump any church. My salvation can be helped by a wise minister-by instruction-but it is not signed sealed and delivered just by attending any one certain church. Make sense?

And in general, is it wrong to question the word of a religious text? Is it wrong to question a god?
A man once questioned God, and roamed the desert for 40 years as punishment. Another man questioned god and was given the choice of salvation or personal riches.
ok--yeah--I think that if you don't understand something in the bible it is your duty to question it and seek an answer the best you can. However, the bible is not text that you may agree with or not. Eventually you have to accept the written word. eh----I'm not good at explaining this.

When they protested at our church for speaking out...we tried to talk with the son as he seemed to be open to some amount of dialogue. If there's another protest in our town...I'll be there with my own kind of sign.

I agree that teaching our children tolerance and acceptance begins at home.

[CostcoLover]

QUOTE(CostcoLover @ Nov 6 2007, 05:06 PM) *
Which version of the Bible would that be? Which translation?

What's going on here? I write how I find answers and get hope from studying the Bible and you feel the need to ridicule that? You take my posts and turn them into something other than what I said?

I asked very legitimate questions -

1. Which version of the Bible
2. Which translation of the Bible
3. Which denomination of the 33,800 Christian denominations

There's no ridicule there.

I was just pointing out that the very same statement that you made can be made in numerous other world religions and showed how it would sound.

Or is any question about the religion of a believer suddenly "ridicule".

And here is the essence of why I ask those questions.

http://www.tomatopag...d...st&p=193978


IMO, if you're going to subscribe to a religion and corresponding belief system, at a minimum it would be wise to question the source of the text which one is studying.



The book “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why” from Prof. Bart Ehrman can be described as an introduction to New Testament textual criticism for beginners, in which he explains the subject in the context of his own background, relating his journey from being an Evangelical Christian to becoming a world renowned New Testament scholar. Besides D. C. Parker’s “Living Text of the Gospels”, Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” seems to be the only book on textual criticism designed specifically for the non-expert readers.

[Andrea V]

You posted a PRIVATE message??? Did you miss the PRIVATE in the P-m???

IMO you should keep that to yourself.

[CostcoLover]

You posted a PRIVATE message??? Did you miss the PRIVATE in the P-m???

IMO you should keep that to yourself.

Clearly we differ in our opinions. I don't accept that messages are "private" messages simply because they're sent that way.

If I have legitimate business with someone that is truly private, then it stays that way, but I don't know MSgt or most other people here and don't consider what was sent to be private.

After all, that's why I posted it.

Don't like something, just go ahead and say it on the forum. Don't be sending me PMs.

Well, I suppose that with this example I won't have to worry too much about that.

[Andrea V]

Clearly we differ in our opinions. I don't accept that messages are "private" messages simply because they're sent that way.

If I have legitimate business with someone that is truly private, then it stays that way, but I don't know MSgt or most other people here and don't consider what was sent to be private.

After all, that's why I posted it.

Don't like something, just go ahead and say it on the forum. Don't be sending me PMs.

Well, I suppose that with this example I won't have to worry too much about that.

haa! true... note to self : Costco Lover doesn't keep secerts!

[supermom]

Since you ask, I think that in reality supermom wants to be an Atheist -is afraid to commit- so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions (which by the way you've not answered).

Yours is a statement that truly only religious people can make because they can't bring themselves to believe that others don't think or believe like they do.

Is that what you tell your Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Hindu, etc. friends?

Why are you attacking Christianity? Did you not say that atheists don't do that? That they are happy to llive in the now--for they know they only have one life? Therefore, since you continue to try to discredit chrsitianity I have come to see that in fact you are a lapsed christian. Perhaps angry or bitter? Or perhaps unable to find the real questions in why your faith has been questioned?

Hey, maybe I'm wrong--but you were quick to jump on Msgt when he said he believes in God; and now you seem to enjoy mocking scripture.


Oh, and no--my statement above can not only be atrtributed to to religious people that can't bring themselves to believe others don't think the way they do. Let's see:

Since you ask, I think that in reality _________ wants to be a/an _________ -is afraid to commit- so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions

Let's put a few examples in here to clarify.

____wants to be divorcee: blah blah.
____wants to be a muslim, buddhist, zhaoist, etc.: blah, blah


so--you see-there are lots of ways to place people into tidy little packages and find a reason for their happiness/unhappiness.

both positive and negative connotations are given in conversations--but since we are particularly talking about christianity---that's what I plugged in.

[CostcoLover]

haa! true... note to self : Costco Lover doesn't keep secerts!

Oh on the contrary, there's just no more room at the inn.

[Andrea V]

huh?

[CostcoLover]

Why are you attacking Christianity? Did you not say that atheists don't do that? That they are happy to llive in the now--for they know they only have one life? Therefore, since you continue to try to discredit chrsitianity I have come to see that in fact you are a lapsed christian. Perhaps angry or bitter? Or perhaps unable to find the real questions in why your faith has been questioned?

1. Oh brother, here we go, any questioning of Christian beliefs is an attack! Quick head to the underground bunkers! Christianity being such an underdog with its mere 2 billion adherents.

2. Atheists don't question Christianity? Hmm, I wouldn't know either way as I'm not an atheist. Though I'd guess some would and some wouldn't.

3. I "discredit" Christianity by asking legitimate questions?

4. Now I'm a "lapsed" Christian? Is that what everyone in the world is? All Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, they're all just lapsed Christians?

5. Haven't you heard? Everyone that's not Christian is just an angry, bitter lapsed Christian.

6. My faith? Unquestioned? I very much like Bish questioned my faith, though at a younger age, and much for many of the same reasons.

What you may find interesting is that none of the questions I've asked have even been attempted to be answered by those of "faith". Such as yourself for example.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong--but you were quick to jump on Msgt when he said he believes in God; and now you seem to enjoy mocking scripture.

I simply pointed out the obvious - His statement could apply to any world religion.

So by pointing out the obvious inherent contradictions in the 'inerrant' Bible, and by pointing out the numerous version and translations and errors in both version and translations, it's mocking scripture?

Sorry, I don't subscribe to the bury-my-head-in-the-sand and accept all I'm spoon fed philosophy so I do question, and do it often.

Oh, and no--my statement above can not only be atrtributed to to religious people that can't bring themselves to believe others don't think the way they do. Let's see:

Since you ask, I think that in reality _________ wants to be a/an _________ -is afraid to commit- so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions

Let's put a few examples in here to clarify.

____wants to be divorcee: blah blah.
____wants to be a muslim, buddhist, zhaoist, etc.: blah, blah
so--you see-there are lots of ways to place people into tidy little packages and find a reason for their happiness/unhappiness.

both positive and negative connotations are given in conversations--but since we are particularly talking about christianity---that's what I plugged in.

Your statements that:

1. I want to be a Christian (and no, I take no offense)

I think that in reality CostcoLover wants to be Christian--is afraid to committ--so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions.

Sidebar: Is that what you tell your Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Hindu, etc. friends? (still waiting for your answer)

2. That I'm a lapsed Christian (and no, I take no offense)

Therefore, since you continue to try to discredit chrsitianity I have come to see that in fact you are a lapsed christian.

3. implying that I'm an atheist - (and no, I take no offense)

Why are you attacking Christianity? Did you not say that atheists don't do that? That they are happy to llive in the now--for they know they only have one life?

4. Your dismissal of others religious beliefs

Ha--the first church I was introduced to--was Methodist.

I can't prescribe to a church that insists rejecting the valididty of other peoples lives/llifestyles because it is wrong on the eyes of man.

5. Your questioning of why you perceive that other people get "defensive" in your beliefs.

sometimes I wonder why so many people get so defensive when I say I believe in God.

6. Your lack of acknowledgment of other's beliefs

Yes, I believe that not repenting in your sins will send you to hell, but if your ok with that, then so am I.

Just goes to show that you see through your religious lens. And quite frankly, do seem (as was already pointed out) as though you're offended when people question your faith/religion

Supermom, you seem as though you're offended by people raising questions about the basis for religious faith -- as if such a discussion should be off-limits. I don't understand that at all.

I asked very legitimate questions and continue to ask them of believers - and truth be told, the silence is deafening. Or have you never asked yourself these questions?

1. Which version of the Bible
2. Which translation of the Bible
3. Which denomination of the 33,800 Christian denominations

And here is the essence of why I ask those questions.

http://www.tomatopag...d...st&p=193978

IMO, if you're going to subscribe to a religion and corresponding belief system, at a minimum it would be wise to question the source of the text which one is studying. Or do you not agree?



The book “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why” from Prof. Bart Ehrman can be described as an introduction to New Testament textual criticism for beginners, in which he explains the subject in the context of his own background, relating his journey from being an Evangelical Christian to becoming a world renowned New Testament scholar. Besides D. C. Parker’s “Living Text of the Gospels”, Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” seems to be the only book on textual criticism designed specifically for the non-expert readers.

[dlutz]

I'm going to try and stay on topic, "Do you believe in god"

It's my opinion that you can't come to a rational conclusion as to the existence of a "god" by simply quoting scripture. Of course each book is going to reinforce it's own argument while denouncing the others. Are there lessons to be learned from each, absolutely. While I'm no expert, I think it's safe to say that most religious texts contain metaphors about how life should be lead. They try to provide answers to the "why" questions of life. But to say they are the word of God is almost inconceivable to me. These are the words of philosophers, some great some not so great. If I'm correct, these texts were gathered together, discussed, edited, and some even censored.

Wouldn't you find me ridiculous if I were to say "I believe in Middle Earth" because I read the Lord of the Rings. The story and it's ancillary writings are just as detailed, mixed with mythology and metaphor, and has some very good lessons to follow on the how's and whys of life. Does simply the passage of time make the text more legitimate? If so wouldn't that make Buddhism and Hinduism more legitimate than Christianity?

So my question to everybody is, if we were to eliminate the discussion of all the documentation, the Bible, the Tripitaka, the Qur'an, the Vedas, the Tanakh, etc would you still have a reason to believe and why?

[CostcoLover]

Good question dlutz - sort of - "Did people believe in God before there were any holy texts"

I'm guessing that back then people were less sophisticated and more apt to believe in the gods of fire, thunder, rain, etc.

As society became more educated / advanced, those gods gave way to more complex gods.

And I suppose that probably evolved over time to where we are today.

[folsom500]

What I do find very interesting is that 43% of those that answered the poll have doubts or do not believe in God ...

That is far higher than I would have thought...

[BIG PAKO]

Is it me or is everyone going off on a tangent?

Was the title "Do you believe in GOD" or "defend or bash religion"?

This reminds me of another thread a while back titled "What is your favorite line from a song" and everybody started writing the ENTIRE lyrics from a song, even the loops


I think I'd rather hear St. Thomas & Nietzsche going at it than all the nonsense everyone's writing


Just my 2 "sense"

[Rich_T]

Just wondering where we stand here on Myfolsom...

Wow, what a no-win topic. You see these debates all over the internet. Someone (in this case, CostCo), who is unusually well-informed for a casual non-believer, takes the lead in producing the Dawkins/Harris/Dennett/Hitchens arguments about science/evidence vs. blind faith. Others then engage the person in useless arguments. Insults start flying.

I've got my own thoughts and beliefs that stand up to logic yet allow for faith. But I sure as heck won't discuss them in an internet forum. Sorry if that sounds snooty, but this is just not the proper venue.

[CostcoLover]

Oh come now BIG PAKO, isn't this your first post in this thread?

Hardly addressing the question. And there are some 6 or 7 other posts where you just threw in atheist jokes.

Then again, it's a forum, being off topic is common, just read the first few pages and you'll see what I mean.

And Rich, I've yet to read Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, or Hitchens, but I have read the Bible.