115 replies to this topic

[Bill Z]

If it is, it's not intentional. Are we thinking about the same definition (as taken from Encarta)?

snobby: behaving toward other people in a way that shows you consider yourself socially or
intellectually superior to them

As the intent wasn't along these lines, rather as point of fact, I don't consider the statements condescending but again I apologize if you took them that way. But I like food -- not just eating but also cooking: from replicating traditional dishes to creating new dishes. When travelling, I make a point of trying indigenous foods (be it the local microbrew, the local trout or whatever). So, I take pains to differentiate between authentic, New and not authentic. My personal preference is to go to places that are Authentic, followed by New and then finally Not Authentic. In general, I've found that my dining experiences are better because in general, there is a correlation to a chef's pride in his/her work that follows this order. But this is not to say that Not Authentic can't be good. And in the case of Chinese food, Authentic is not about Sea Cucumbers and Chicken Feet and other exotic ingredients (that I may or may not like). There's a vast diversity out there that we don't get in Folsom for whatever reason. So, sorry for sharing. Perhaps it's better I stick to Yelp if this is the case.

Anyway, thanks and good luck.

Well, based on PM's I've received, I'm not the only one offended by people that say certain ethnic foods in Folsom aren't "real".

What I do know is, a chinese man told me that what we get served in chinese restaurants is not what chinese people eat on a daily basis, but more like what gets served at special occassions and what royalty eat and that the daily food is much more simple. so it's like what we get at chinese restaurants would be similar to an American restaurant in China that served dishes typical of our Thanksgiving, Christmas, & Easter feasts.

I know I would like to go to china and find the little hole in the wall places to see what their daily food is like. I know when I was in Korea, I had their normal daily offerings and I've never been to a korean restaurant in the US that wasn't the same. doesn't mean there might not be any, I've just never found one that wasn't authentic.

[tsukiji]

Well, based on PM's I've received, I'm not the only one offended by people that say certain ethnic foods in Folsom aren't "real".

What I do know is, a chinese man told me that what we get served in chinese restaurants is not what chinese people eat on a daily basis, but more like what gets served at special occassions and what royalty eat and that the daily food is much more simple. so it's like what we get at chinese restaurants would be similar to an American restaurant in China that served dishes typical of our Thanksgiving, Christmas, & Easter feasts.

I know I would like to go to china and find the little hole in the wall places to see what their daily food is like. I know when I was in Korea, I had their normal daily offerings and I've never been to a korean restaurant in the US that wasn't the same. doesn't mean there might not be any, I've just never found one that wasn't authentic.

Dude, let's give this a rest. Let's just agree to disagree. Cool? Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. We don't need to agree. You don't know me, and I don't know you.

[Bill Z]

Dude, let's give this a rest. Let's just agree to disagree. Cool? Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. We don't need to agree. You don't know me, and I don't know you.

OK, I'll drop it after this!

Your second to last reply, you still had to do the one up game by telling me your dining experiences are better. Better than whose? Mine?

I'm pretty sure I've dined places that you haven't, but I'm not going around telling anyone my dining experiences are better than anyone elses. And I'm not insulting the local restaurants by saying they don't make "real" ethnic food.

[mylo]

My dining experiences are the best.

[tsukiji]

OK, I'll drop it after this!

Your second to last reply, you still had to do the one up game by telling me your dining experiences are better. Better than whose? Mine?

I'm pretty sure I've dined places that you haven't, but I'm not going around telling anyone my dining experiences are better than anyone elses. And I'm not insulting the local restaurants by saying they don't make "real" ethnic food.

Dude, what is your problem? How could I possibly say that my dining experiences are better than yours? I don't frickin know you. And even if we went to the same restaurant and had the same food at the same time, we'd probably have different impressions. I wouldn't presume to know what your frickin opinion is and what your dining experiences are like. If you think the French Laundry is crap and McD's is great, I don't really care. If you like authentic Korean food or American Chinese food, I don't care.

So, duh, obviously I was referring to myself. My dining experiences in my own opinion seem better when I decide to go to a place where the chef in my opinion prepares his food in what I believe is in a more authentic manner than when I decide to go to a place where the chef in my opinion prepares food that I believe is less than authentic. Does this help spell it out for you? Nothing to do with you and your experiences.

Perhaps you don't insult local restaurants, but you pretty good at insulting others. And what may be sad is that you don't even realize it.

[Dave Burrell]

I think its time you guys met me at Manderes for some beers...

[Bill Z]

Dude, what is your problem? How could I possibly say that my dining experiences are better than yours? I don't frickin know you. And even if we went to the same restaurant and had the same food at the same time, we'd probably have different impressions. I wouldn't presume to know what your frickin opinion is and what your dining experiences are like. If you think the French Laundry is crap and McD's is great, I don't really care. If you like authentic Korean food or American Chinese food, I don't care.

So, duh, obviously I was referring to myself. My dining experiences in my own opinion seem better when I decide to go to a place where the chef in my opinion prepares his food in what I believe is in a more authentic manner than when I decide to go to a place where the chef in my opinion prepares food that I believe is less than authentic. Does this help spell it out for you? Nothing to do with you and your experiences.

Perhaps you don't insult local restaurants, but you pretty good at insulting others. And what may be sad is that you don't even realize it.

Well, your middle paragraph pretty well sums it up. So my question to you is, what makes you the authority on what is authentic? It is all just your opinion as to what you like better, but to then say those you don't like aren't authentic is insulting to those who feel they are making authentic chinese food. Let's put it this way, as an american, anything I cook that is considered traditional american food must be authentic american food. Will everyone like it? Maybe not, but that doesn't make it non-authentic. I've had chinese food made by a chinese man, for his guests and his chinese family, I would say what he made was very authentic, but it didn't come from some hi faluten SF restaurant. I don't know if you would have liked it or not, but I did.

If you tell me you don't like the chinese food at Hop Sing's, that's fine.

If you tell me, you don't like the food at Hop sing's because it isn't authentic or real chinese food, that I find insulting and demeaning.

That's my point.

[tsukiji]

Well, your middle paragraph pretty well sums it up. So my question to you is, what makes you the authority on what is authentic? It is all just your opinion as to what you like better, but to then say those you don't like aren't authentic is insulting to those who feel they are making authentic chinese food. Let's put it this way, as an american, anything I cook that is considered traditional american food must be authentic american food. Will everyone like it? Maybe not, but that doesn't make it non-authentic. I've had chinese food made by a chinese man, for his guests and his chinese family, I would say what he made was very authentic, but it didn't come from some hi faluten SF restaurant. I don't know if you would have liked it or not, but I did.

If you tell me you don't like the chinese food at Hop Sing's, that's fine.

If you tell me, you don't like the food at Hop sing's because it isn't authentic or real chinese food, that I find insulting and demeaning.

That's my point.

Oh, and because you lived in Korea for a year, you can tell what's authentic Korean or not? If you like the Korean food around here, that's fine. But if you call it authentic, then I find it insulting and demeaning.

Think what you want. I don't really care. There are integrity and cultural aspects to this discussion that I just don't care to explain to you. I'm sorry if I've insulted you as that wasn't the intent. But I'm not sorry for my opinion and I won't retract it.

What if you went to, say, India and went into an "American" restaurant and ordered a hamburger? Let's say the hamburger was mixed w/ curry powder, was steamed and then served between 2 pieces of Naan. Would you call this authentic or just a bad burger? This is how I feel when I go to Sushi restaurants here.

[Dave Burrell]

If you tell me you don't like the chinese food at Hop Sing's, that's fine.

If you tell me, you don't like the food at Hop sing's because it isn't authentic or real chinese food, that I find insulting and demeaning.

This is why I was asking for some clarification yesterday about what folks consider "authentic" - because I have to admit, it does come off as sort of condescending sometimes, as if those of us who do like the place have no clue about authentic / good food. (no offense)

I think I've found that in a nutshell, we all have differing opinions and different tastes and honestly, I don't think anyone is better then another, we are all just different.

I actually like hearing differing opinions, it makes me want to try a place to find out for myself whether its really good or bad (to me and only me)

for example, look how much mylo and I argue about food.... and he and I have been to many restaurants but yet we have complete opposite opinions about the same place (I think its just because he has no taste heheh just kidding!)

To me, the only real authority on food is a trained certified chef, and even then that person is skilled in their local cuisine but not world cuisine, so the debates go on and on

To summarize, I say just go with what works for you individually, if you like it and enjoy the taste, thats all that matters in the end. We could both be sitting next to each other, at the same place, eating the same thing and both have polar opposite opinions about the same food.

with all that said now.... when's lunch?

[Dave Burrell]

What if you went to, say, India and went into an "American" restaurant and ordered a hamburger? Let's say the hamburger was mixed w/ curry powder, was steamed and then served between 2 pieces of Naan. Would you call this authentic or just a bad burger? This is how I feel when I go to Sushi restaurants here.

I'd call that a bizarre Indian burger, but it sounds good and I'd try it just to see what its like - and as for labeling it authentic I don't even know where to being with that - authentic American or authentic Indian hehehe, the only thing that really matters is - did it taste good to me

On the sushi subject, that's a hot debate, me personally, I've had it in Japan many times and had it here a zillion times, I like it all

[mylo]

What if you went to, say, India and went into an "American" restaurant and ordered a hamburger? Let's say the hamburger was mixed w/ curry powder, was steamed and then served between 2 pieces of Naan. Would you call this authentic or just a bad burger?

That sounds interesting. I'd eat it.

[tsukiji]

I'd call that a bizarre Indian burger, but it sounds good and I'd try it just to see what its like - and as for labeling it authentic I don't even know where to being with that - authentic American or authentic Indian hehehe, the only thing that really matters is - did it taste good to me

On the sushi subject, that's a hot debate, me personally, I've had it in Japan many times and had it here a zillion times, I like it all

Hehe. Yea, I even get confused here when restaurants label themselves as Traditional American and New American? What kind of food can I expect in each?

And you're right -- everyone has their own individual tastes and opinions on what they like or don't like.

There are some types of food that I would consider non-authentic (ie - based on my earlier description of preparations that you typically wouldn't find in the 'native' country) that I would like. For example, while I generally don't order it, there are some restaurants where chicken teriyaki is pretty tasty -- do I consider chicken teriyaki authentic Japanese? Not really - mostly it's creation of Japanese salesman who tried to introduce and popularize soy sauce in America 40-50 years ago. But at certain restaurants, it's made pretty well.

Not being authenticate does not mean bad tasting. That I don't care to patronize restaurants that aren't authentic or that I don't offer them as recommendations is a personal preference. And while I'm not an authority, I'm not unique -- I've spent considerable portions of my life in Asia and none of my Asian friends or Asian co-workers / customers who travel here from Asia consider the food here 'traditional' for the most part.

I don't understand why one would take offense at indicating a restaurant as not authentic. When you go to a French restaurant, you expect French food like one would be served in France. Why should Asian restaurants be any different?

There is a phrase in Japanese "sappari aji" which loosely translates to 'mild flavored.' But the phrase implies food that allows the natural flavors to shine through. For sushi, ideally one would take the best rice, grown in the best fertile fields, harvested and processed at the perfect time and manner, cooked with the best appliance using the purest natural water with just the right amount of minerals, season it with the highest quality ingredients (vinegar, etc), form a the perfect 'ball' with the ideal amount of rice and layer it with the best cut of the highest quality, freshest fish and then dipped in the best quality sushi soy sauce (which is brewed differently than most soy sauce). In the end, all of the ingredients are the best of the best, prepared in the best possible manner so that the natural tastes of each ingredient comes through as well as perfectly complement each other to form new tastes.

Sushi is not about developing the most creative roll with sauces that are bursting with flavor and a mix of all kinds of different seafood (or other ingredients).

By definition, yes, it's probably very tasty. But I nor any of the Japanese people I know would call this traditional or authentic sushi. The essence of sushi is lost here. And you won't find this served in Japan except for trendy restaurants catering to the local fashionistas or foreigners.

So, do I have a definition for what's authentic or not? No. But I'm comfortable with what I would consider authentic. And I'm not saying it can't be tasty. In fact, Mikuni has had tremendous financial success by not being authentic. I personally just choose not to patronize them. I don't see why that's so bad. Similarities with Chinese, Korean, French, Italian, etc. cuisines.

This will be my last post into the Food section here. I'm sorry for any offense. We obviously have different philosophies about food.

[Darth Lefty]

DIE THREAD DIE

[Dave Burrell]

There are some types of food that I would consider non-authentic (ie - based on my earlier description of preparations that you typically wouldn't find in the 'native' country) that I would like. For example, while I generally don't order it, there are some restaurants where chicken teriyaki is pretty tasty -- do I consider chicken teriyaki authentic Japanese? Not really - mostly it's creation of Japanese salesman who tried to introduce and popularize soy sauce in America 40-50 years ago. But at certain restaurants, it's made pretty well.

Check out this place and their version of Vietnamese teriyaki chicken, saw them making this on Diners, Dives and Drive In's last night at http://pokpokpdx.com...enus&menu=shack

here's the recipe:
1 cup fish sauce
1 cup water
1 cup sugar
combine in a pan and reduce, 'til thick and syrupy.
Towards the end of the reduction process, add a few spoonfuls of crushed ginger and some water - marinate for 3 hours to over night (recommend over night)

Next:

Get some wings (you could do anything really)
Lightly dust in rice flour.
Fry til golden brown

When wings are done frying, pan fry and toss in fish sauce mixture. Sprinkle with chopped green garlic and cilantro, and you could add chili flake for some heat. (this amount of fish sauce should coat about a dozen wings. you can make more or less, but just remember to always use equal parts fish sauce, water, and sugar.)

Serve immediately with cold beer!

There is a phrase in Japanese "sappari aji" which loosely translates to 'mild flavored.' But the phrase implies food that allows the natural flavors to shine through. For sushi, ideally one would take the best rice, grown in the best fertile fields, harvested and processed at the perfect time and manner, cooked with the best appliance using the purest natural water with just the right amount of minerals, season it with the highest quality ingredients (vinegar, etc), form a the perfect 'ball' with the ideal amount of rice and layer it with the best cut of the highest quality, freshest fish and then dipped in the best quality sushi soy sauce (which is brewed differently than most soy sauce). In the end, all of the ingredients are the best of the best, prepared in the best possible manner so that the natural tastes of each ingredient comes through as well as perfectly complement each other to form new tastes.

I fully understand, sometimes the best foods are made with little to no spices at all, its all about combining natural flavors to create culinary sensations, its truly an art.

Sushi is not about developing the most creative roll with sauces that are bursting with flavor and a mix of all kinds of different seafood (or other ingredients).

By definition, yes, it's probably very tasty. But I nor any of the Japanese people I know would call this traditional or authentic sushi. The essence of sushi is lost here. And you won't find this served in Japan except for trendy restaurants catering to the local fashionistas or foreigners.

I agree

So, do I have a definition for what's authentic or not? No. But I'm comfortable with what I would consider authentic. And I'm not saying it can't be tasty. In fact, Mikuni has had tremendous financial success by not being authentic.

well said

This will be my last post into the Food section here. I'm sorry for any offense. We obviously have different philosophies about food.

naw, don't ever take any of these discussions and debates as offensive either way. I like having these discussions, I learn a lot from them.

[Dave Burrell]

DIE THREAD DIE

"grasshoppa, read not, the threads that cause you strife"

- Confuse-ed, 2009