139 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

You said it was challenging to put into words a response, but you nailed it, irish1. Well said.

I'm late to this party but I totally agree with ducky and irish.

I think what the manager did was SOP -- if they see what seems like shoplifting, they confront the person and ask, "Hey, did you pay for that?" I've seen that scene replayed a couple times in different stores.

Keep in mind, the shoplifter was only 13. The manager may have felt like he was doing the kid (and society) a favor to confront the kid and give him a chance to come clean, rather than immediately calling in the SWAT team. No one would anticipate being stabbed by a 13 year old.

[supermom]

In fairness though Michael, it's a civilized society and people can't be vigilantes. I will defend myself if anyone puts their hands on me (or someone I love...even to get anyone out of danger, like a woman or a little kid), but as a worker I'd never get physical with someone to save merchandise worth $10.

For the most part I understand where supermom is coming from.

I can understand not wanting to send a message that shoplifting is okay (much less violence), but there are other ways of punishing.


My whole point here, is that, only someone trained to stop a human being from committing violence should be allowed to use susch tactics--regardless of the age of the perpetrator....because a trained person, would have seen the knife, would have seen the threat....would have handled the threat differently...See what I am saying?
I am not saying the manager is a bad person, I'm saying he was put in an untenable situation by asking expecting/encouraging or overlooking his actions..from past theft incidences...

Yes but supposedly he just put his hand on the kids shoulder and grabbed his jacket to prevent him from leaving with stolen merchandise.

That's not violent. That's less than a playground supervisor would do at an elementary school

The kid was the one who was violent.

You are 100% right in that assessment. and with a "normal" 13 year old, the kid would have tried to run, not turn and stab. This is why I said something is fishy about this story--this part wasn't in the news...not the news I saw..this makes me cringe that the police were not involved immediately( a phone call prior to the kid walking out?)...I wonder if there were mental issues...

Retail corporations have rules, that if not followed, can mean an employee will be fired.

That would be sad...the store just needs to change their policy on what is acceptable bussiness practices...I would not be objectionable to invisible paint sprays on items in stores, as an anti theft deterrent--or a security guard...
I'm sure the manager is a great guy and good father, that has not been in question,

I agree, no one is saying the guy isn't. And I hope his company is paying for all his medical bills, lost wages, etc.

Again, we are talking about a human life here, that may have been lost for the price of a stupid BB gun!
My guess is if this had been a regular employee running out of the store to pursue this boy and got stabbed, they would get fired....that was my main point. Hopefully he would not have pursued if the suspect had been a adult man. Not that he wasn't trying to do the right thing or that he was the bad guy.....geeez!

Get a grip people!

I'm not even going to consider the price of the BB gun. The saddest part of this is that people have been killed for a dollar in their pocket, the shoes on their feet or even just incorrect identification.

There is no rhyme or reason to what some people will do.

But we can try to protect our employees by training them to understand--they are not cops!

Do you know how many "cops" work the night shifts in stores in Folsom? They work a second job for income, and the stores like it--cause the guys are trained to be good witnesses. or give a good foot race.

But why risk getting stabbed or shot for merchandise that can be claimed on the company insurance? Are your employees lives that worthless to you?

[knittychick]

We are so incredibly confused as a society it is no wonder we have a large percentage of screwed up children. It sounds like acting spontaneously on your sense of what is right and wrong is no longer acceptable (this is different than taking the law into your own hands). In this case it sounds like the store manager was at fault for not just watching the shoplifter walk away with items from his store and Walmart was at fault for not having the item under lock and key. What responsibility does the shoplifter bear?

Does this situation differ from the woman who has her purse snatched? Should we stand by to get a description of the thief rather than stick out a foot to trip or give chase? What about someone who stops to help after an accident? Any of these people could be injured or sued for helping, but I would still rather live in a world where people are trying to do the right thing than a world where everyone is afraid to do anything because of the corporate or litigious consequences. Personal safety is an individual’s decision and I respect that it is their choice to make whether or not they choose to get involved.

[Oldschooler81]

I firmly admit I'm wishy washy on this issue, never firmly taking a side and sticking with it. I guess because there's honestly alot of good points I can see on both sides of this argument.

If all he did was touch the kid's shoulder, that's not overboard at all. I think I was just referring to vigilanteism in general that I disagree with (I'm sure citizens who take the law into their own hands have their heart in a good place, it's just their way of executing it that I don't like). I feel the same about corporal punishment, but that's a whole nother topic.

Walmart should have security guards like they did in 1994, I'm sure we'd all agree there.

True, it is hard to know how you'd react in a certain situation until you're there. Thankfully I've never been in a fight or a real altercation before. Yeah I'm pretty sure I'd step in if someone was being hurt (I wouldn't just let an old person get mugged, a man putting his hands on a woman, or child abuse in front of me without doing something), but I wouldn't go above and beyond as an employee to save something replacable that cost $10 or 20, that's all I'm saying. Again I don't mean this situation per se, just in general.

Basically don't use violence unless there's no other choice (i.e. protecting yourself or someone else) is what I'm saying.

[supermom]

ps... how's this for incredible irony...

At the same time this incident was happening....

My 12 year old son and I were at the Big 5--

killing time between appointments.

We were discussing the finer points of fire power between air soft and spring loaded soft or metal BB guns. As well as negating the desirability of the shot gun BB gun.

I have a hard time justifying a shot gun BB gun as it being for "target practice" when the point of a shot gun is to spray.... (someone could correct me on that if they would so like). However, BB guns in my house are only allowed to be used on targets.

(BTW--whats up with all the BB's at the river front?)

So....I guess my point here.....I understand the whole argument about parental supervision--cause at 5pm my kid and I were in a store together--browsing thorugh lots of guns....

I feel for everyone, here....my issues aren't just with the store...

[Steve Heard]

While I agree that it's silly to expect the store manager to resign, get fired or sue Wal-Mart, I do think he should have called the cops and let the kid go.

The manager didn't assume the kid was armed. I would. I would also assume he may have had accomplices who might not like him stopping their friend.

I'd have my cell phone with me and the cops dialed, then approach the kid and stay out of stabbing range. If the kid didn't want to come along with me, I'd let the pros handle it, and this is coming from someone who, though no longer believes he is invincible, has trained in and taught self-defense for about 20 years.

As I've told many a student, 'you never know what the other guy knows.'

The other guy might know that he is a violent meth-head in the midst of tweeking.

The other guy might know that he is desperate and would kill to keep the item or keep from being caught.

The other guy might know that he has friends who will come to his aid and jump you.

Sometimes, the other guy knows that he has a weapon and is ready to use it.

So, not knowing what the other guy knows, it is best to keep some distance between you and let the pros (the cops) do their thing.

I don't want this guy losing his life, and his family losing a dad, over a bb gun.

[Redone]

nope sorry.

I disagree with all of you.

the guy was not a cop.

and he had no business laying his hands on a kid.

Bet he wouldn't have done it--if it had been a 235 pound 6 foot 3 inch linebacker...

but a trained cop would have known and would have had the right equipment--to stop this kid ---possibly before the knife got used.

I agree with maxine on this one.

Walmart should be sued.

Walmart should be sued for what ? Somehow you are making a distinction that size of the guilty matters. It shouldn't. It certainly didn't for the 13 year old since he had an Equalizer.

A trained cop doesnt have any "special equipment" to prevent a stabbing. That's a comment from too much TV. If there were such equipment each and every guard at Folsom Prison would have it.

[ducky]

Walmart should be sued for what ? Somehow you are making a distinction that size of the guilty matters. It shouldn't. It certainly didn't for the 13 year old since he had an Equalizer.

A trained cop doesnt have any "special equipment" to prevent a stabbing. That's a comment from too much TV. If there were such equipment each and every guard at Folsom Prison would have it.

Totally agree, Redone. I was wondering what special suit these people think Asset Protection people or Rent-A-Cops wear that would have made them better equipped to deal with this situation than a manager.

I wonder where this kid went to school and if he carried this weapon on him there. I shudder to think what would have happened if there were a dispute with a fellow student.

[doj_gal]

I had a situation happen to an employee when I was working at Longs Drugs.

Our night cashier was sick of seeing people steal. So, one night she called the security code and flew out the door after the guy with the backpack of merchandise.

I ran up front, saw the door open and went outside. I saw her wrestling with the guy for the backpack. He grabbed a large vodka bottle and hit her in the shoulder with it, dropped the back pack and took off. I got to her just as he was leaving. We got a description and direction of travel and called Folsom PD (I'm sorry for this) was always horrible about response times, if they ever showed and did not do much. Needless to say, she was pretty hurt and went to the doctor the following morning. Nothing ever came of it because FPD would not go look for the individual.

Overall, no life is worth than anything stolen. She knew it was our company policy to never approach anyone after they left thet store. As a manager, I would follow people and make them so uncomfortable that they would leave, often times without the product. However, I never put myself in harms way.

The man underestimated the mental state of the teen and probably did so because what was stolen could be used as a weapon. He is not to blaim. Stupid...but should have never been put in that situation. He was probably sick of seeing things being taken and nothing done about it. Walmart needs to step up and secure it's stores and local law enforcement needs to respond when called.

I blame Folsom PD. They really need to follow up on thefts of weapons and prescriptions drugs. The entire 5 years working at Long Drugs they only followed up on one complaint where the robbers tore the door off of the store. Other than that, FPD is much more concerned with catching people committing traffic violations...That's where they get their money, not in catching people who steal!

[Redone]

Plus , she wants the manager to sue his employer for not being trained, W T H..

Sometimes even employees have to do what's right and take ownership of their place of work.
If they let everyone steal then they won't have a place to work.

This is one of the most shocking threads ever for several reasons. Views on employers , what's right, and no comment on how Folsom is raising teenagers.

[Denise1425]

Is Keith the one injured?

[ducky]

I think professionally trained people in art of self defense know how to disarm a optional attacker DO and CAN prevent themselves from being injured or at least injured to a lesser degree.
Stevethedad is right in his statement that one never knows what the other person knows. That boy very well could have had friends waiting for him that could have all attacked the store manager. That kid could have even had a hand gun he stole from someone and shot the manager and killed him.

The manager put his life in danger by assuming he could capture this kid and assuming because of his age and size, he would not be in any harm from injury in pursuing him. That was unwise.

Thanks Steve for some clarity on this situation. Nobody should EVER lose their son/brother/father or husband over trying to save a store from merchandise loss.

It's not about doing the right thing.... it's about being there for your kids and family members who need and love you. And being able to live to watch your kids grow up. If one spoke to this manager today, he would probably say he'd not do what he did if he had it to do over.... and had learned how quickly one can be in danger of losing their life.
You can bet he'll never forget this!

I know how to do knife disarms. In fact, I know enough that I never want to have to do one because it is so dangerous. That is why a lot of perpetrators are shot by police from a distance when brandishing a knife.

Granted the merchandise was not worth what happened to this poor individual, but I won't condemn him for doing his job. If this were a checker that didn't have to answer to corporate for store losses, then I might have a different opinion.

[Redone]

Impossible to train every person who might stop a shoplifter.

We're talking about a 13 year old middle schooler here..