187 replies to this topic

[Young Curmudgeon]

Just to toss some fresh wood on the fire ... (very general statements to follow not neccesarily directly related to Folsom High School's music department)

I think seeking national recognition for a public music program is pointless. In some cases, it can be harmful. Music awards say little about the actual education going on within a program. If you are spending a great deal of time preparing for contests -- particularly those related to marching band -- very little music instruction takes place.

If a music program REALLY wants to impress me, there would be mandatory exit testing. Kids would be tested on a variety of things, including:

- Reading
- Sight reading
- Interpretation
- Tone (or technique and versatility for percussionists)

If 3 out of 10 kids leave the school with the ability to sight read at tempo, that would have to be considered a public music program worth merit (and financial support). It would certainly exceed the averages. On the other hand, plaques on the wall don't impress me. This is art, not sport.

As someone with 15 years of experience as a player and educator in public music education (state individual award winner, member of national award winning groups, section instructor, one time music major), I see too many groups traveling and not enough emphasis on real education.

I'll end on a real experience: two summers ago I was temporarily contracted to help a drumline north of Sacramento that had won a few awards in the years previous to my arrival. I anticipated my help would only be needed as a tertiary response. As I passed out one draft of a very common drum break, the 22 drummers in the line looked at me as if I had just handed them a foreign language. They had always learned through mimic and repetition. Only two of them had the first clue how to work through the notes on the page. All 22 left without asking me to teach them how to properly read it. When I informed the director, he told me -- in no uncertain terms -- he was only concerned they'd be able to perform on the field, that there was no time to teach all those drummers the essentials they had somehow missed in their previous experience in that system.

I severed my contract immediately and I refuse to volunteer for any program that does not share my values.

[Robert Giacometti]

There are simple solutions to this problem.  I just don't like to hear people blame the victim.  The district, school and music booster board pushed Ms. Kinsella to the wall.  She fought back.  End of story, unfortunately, the end of the story will cost all of us a lot of attorney's fees.  The majority of you want to blame Kinsella.  I blame the District.  Why did they not step in and solve this mess before it went this far?  They've had two years.

Solution:  Tell the boosters to clearly state that all monies they collect are DONATIONS!!  It is perfectly legal for them to collect donations.  It is not legal for them to collect FEES or DUES.  If the community admires and wants to keep the music program then they will make the donations.  If they don't, then that will be what kills the music program, not Ms. Kinsella.

2nd issue:  The District.  Well they got us into this mess.  But there is no lawsuit yet, just a claim from what I heard on Channel 3.  The district apparently has time to settle this thing with Ms. Kinsella.  All you people clamoring for revenge should be instead writing the District and telling them to clean up this mess they caused by ignoring the wrong person.  For those interested in the law, read Hartzell v. Connell (1984) 35 C.3d 899.  The lady is right.  The district is wrong.

Drugsarebad,

Maybe you can clarify some issues for us.

#1. What did the District do to, Mrs. Kinsella, to make her a victim? Did they not allow her children to participate in band? Did they charge her fees/dues and no one else?

#2. Yes or no, Did Mrs. Kinsella pay the same fees/dues/ donations that the other parents have paid in the last 2 years? I'm just curious, if all parents who have the ability to pay, have paid the fees/dues/donations and one hasn't, who is the victim?

#3. Why doesn't Mrs. Kinsella simply write DONATION of her check instead of fees and submit a letter saying this was a donation. Problem solved! Once she considers this a donation, then all the other issues of paying people money for billings, budgets etc, would be moot, correct?

#4. Why doesn't Mrs. Kinsella dismiss/withdraw the lawsuit?

Don't you agree that we are each responsible for the choices we make in life? It seems to me, Mrs. Kinsella has chosen to file a lawsuit. It was HER choice to do this, not the District and not the Boosters. If indeed there is something illegal occuring why didn't she choose to have the responsible agency that oversee's this aspect and have them address the problem?

I sense this may be why there aren't more people sympathetic with her cause.

[zach5]

When I was in Jazz band we too had to be in the Marching Band. We were lucky, we never had to pay dues. The amounts talked about here are quite a bit I feel, almost 1300 dollars a year. I could not afford to pay that and I believe music is important skill to have. We are new to the area and have already noticed a few fundraisers for the bands. I do not understand why this would not be enough to pay for these trips? Also how are sports paid for at Folsom High? Do they have to raise money to go on their trips? Also are the boosters up front with their costs? Also do they open their books to the public? If the boosters are open and share all this with the public I don't think that the band will be hurt by the lawsuit. In fact if they are open and are found to be a worthy cause I think this will help raise money for the band.

Well after booking a bus for our school club I can see where some of their money goes and I know that they have quite a large band to have to bus around. For our school clubw e had to charter a bus to go on a trip and it costed around $1000 each way for transportation. And about sports, there are also Folsom Atheletic Booster, but in order to play in a sport, there is also quite a large fee at the beginning of each season/year.

[skippypeanutbutter]

I was a member of the swim team and most of the expenses incurred (paying the aquatic center and for the bus rides to practice and to/from away meets were the main ones) were covered by fundraisers though each person did have to pay the district $50 for transportation. I think that we get some funds from the athletic association and I know that we staffed the snack bar at the boys basketball games. As a member of the team, we also had to purchase a spirit pack, which was $65. As for team gear (suits, caps, warm-ups, etc.), we had to buy it- suits were mandatory, caps were a part of the spirit pack, and everything else was optional.

[uberman]

She still has no reason to sue a public school. A private school, maybe, it just seems to me that the school was forced (via budget cuts,) to charge for things that should probably be paid for by the state. As a result of doing so, to stay afloat, they charge the participants. Now, they're getting sued, for that same reason. Double-edged sword. The woman has a choice, take it up privately or just be responsible and think about what's ACTUALLY at risk here.

Seems to me that we should all be siding with the school on this one, what are they supposed to do? Just give up and not have a music program? It's the school that's being pushed between a rock and a hard place, or the common idiom.

I changed my mind, I have no sympathy for this woman.

I'll play the violin so everyone can have a last taste of music:
:boohoo :who-me

[tessieca]

If she really has an issue with the music boosters' budget, Mr. Gaesser's admin. fees, and the wording on the billing, she really ought to be taking it up with the MUSIC BOOSTERS. The only reason to attack the district on this issue is for $$, as in deeper pockets than a 501©(3) with all volunteers.

Don't believe that the boosters club has not explained over the course of the past two years that the dues are not required. She knew it, and she knows it now. She is perturbed that people did not handle her gripes as tenderly as she wanted. I agree that the boosters' invoices are not as clear as they might be, but why does that make for a lawsuit.

[pampChefLady]

My son has been in orchestra, symphony, and chamber for the last 3 years. The fees are not excessive, though paying for him and the middle schoolers at the same time has been a task before. Just to let you know my experience, if you don't pay it right away, they send you another invoice next quarter. Says the same thing, non-threatening, no PAST DUE notices, just a reminder. They also let the kids sell candy to cover costs for trips and even dues. My son has always been able to sell a few HUNDRED dollars worth of candy right at school!

One point that no one's made: previous posts imply that Curtis Gaesser is profiting unjustly from this. Does anyone think that a person of his musical quality would put in all his time on a TEACHER'S SALARY?!! Having attended two high schools with contrasting music programs, I firmly believe it is the teacher that makes the difference. Folsom would not have the extraordinary programs if it wasn't for Mr. Zimney and Mr. Gaesser. If the parents (boosters) have been smart enough to figure this out and make sure they're compensated for it, KUDOS to them!

I agree that the lawsuit is a very dangerous way to try to resolve her issues. Heck, if these are worthy complaints, posting them on MyFolsom and in the Telegraph should've gotten enough people interested in fixing the problems.

Lastly, we actually chose to settle in Folsom instead of El Dorado Hills BECAUSE Folsom schools have a strings program. I'm sure we're not the only parents who've made this type of decision. So saying that having these programs only benefits the kids in them is incorrect. You won't know what impact they have on a community until they're gone... I'm pretty sure this woman doesn't want to kill the programs, but I don't think she fully thought out the ramifications of her actions.

Now if I could just figure out how to get an equally talented and committed strings specialist hired and compensated by the school....

[benning]

The music program is the best thing going at Folsom High School (and Folsom Middle School). Gaesser sets the bar high and the kids work hard to meet it - something that is sadly lacking in much of education today. Forget all the awards and trophies if you want to...if you have any type of musical ear at all...just LISTEN to them during a concert and you'll know.

For a parent whose children have benefited from the program to do this seems unconscionable. 501c (3)'s have very strict reporting requirements...to go to the district is at least two steps away from the direct path to resolve any conflict with the Booster group.
Does anyone know much about her backer?...looks like the Pacific Justice Institute. Is it some lawsuit factory? Let's hope this all goes away soon.

[tessieca]

Not Pacific Justice Institute, but similar. The attorney leads an organization called the United States Justice Foundation. He's successfully sued 2-3 other school districts over use of a fee structure. The main difference I see between those districts and this one is that the district was actually charging the fees in those cases, not a fundraising support group that has no official affiliation with the district.

[PJ James]

The lawsuit is misguided at best, but let's not look past the fact the booster group was sending invoices that suggested payment was mandatory. This is wrong, and it would irk me, as well.

I say this as someone who spent 12 years in a public music education program. My high school instructor was the president of the NMEA and was professor to a handful of music educators -- some in this area. I have much respect for music educators and am equally frustrated at the near total abandonment of vital arts programs in public schools. I am a former professional musician who can read and interpret music thanks to money from public coffers. I thank all of you for that.

However, support of a public program should not be mandatory. I purchased my own equipment to participate, but could not have afforded to travel and participate in other competitions with the music groups without the help of other people. I would be very interested if someone else offered to pay for this woman's childrens' way. Maybe someone should have stepped up to pick up the tab to avoid a very actionable position -- instead of sticking to their guns to prove some kind of moral (if not legal) point.

As my mom being a former music booster board member...i know for a fact...that anyone who cannot afford the fees is welcome to communicate that to the board and music director privately, as scholarships for this type of thing are available. This is one of the items the boosters raise money for.

[uberman]

As my mom being a former music booster board member...i know for a fact...that anyone who cannot afford the fees is welcome to communicate that to the board and music director privately, as scholarships for this type of thing are available. This is one of the items the boosters raise money for.

The lawsuit isn't about her not being able to pay the invoices, it's about her sentiments about having to pay for a public educational program to begin with. I'm sure she can afford it if she's willing to file a lawsuit in disagreement with the whole thing.

This whole situation is getting messy, and we're all a part of it. As much as i'd like this woman to just give it up and take it up privately with the department, I only wish to see the courts do their job and to see an individual's, and an institution's rights and intentions held up to the candlelight.

[TheCourtJester]

This thread gives me the urge to gouge my eyes out with forks. No seriously. RIDICULOUS.

What's with this "fees" vs. "dues" vs. "voluntary payments?" If we ("we" in my case being the Jazz Choir) don't pay, we don't go to any festivals or competitions, it's as simple as that. Even so, we're never harrassed to pay or sent "OVER DUE" notices. They ALWAYS tell us if we can't pay, go talk to them. There's waivers and scholarships available if you can't.

The directors make squat from their teachers salary and the music boosters. There's absolutely nothing going on that's illegal here. The boosters and directors have aready been audited because of this (censored) and they found NOTHING. So why didn't she drop it? Mrs. Kinsella, That (gratuitious name-calling) is out on a personal vendetta. It can't be "deep pockets" because she can't get anything out of it (you can't squeeze blood from a damned rock, can you?). There's no "trying to save the music department" or "clean-up" or even "trying to make a point" going on here. The boosters never hid anything form anyone, and parents of people involved in the music program were ALWAYS made aware of meetings and were welcome to go. This is HER deal alone. And people are actually SIDING with this woman? The woman who stood up at a boosters meeting and called the colorguard (correct me if I'm wrong here) "fat cows?"

NICE, everyone, nice. [/sarcasm]

I'm also amazed that so many people who have had absolutely NOTHING to do with the music department seem to think they have something valuable to say here...and think they know what they're talking about?

Sure, if you want the music boosters to stop doing their JOB so the best music program in the country goes under, GO AHEAD. Support the lawsuit! I can't believe channel 3 reported on this crap...someone yells "scandal" and the press comes running, whether it's a load of CRAP or not.

Friggin ridiculous...

Drugarebad, KPFaith, Education, rlflowers...anyone who think the lawsuit is "just" in some way....
just...
no.

[PJ James]

Just to toss some fresh wood on the fire ... (very general statements to follow not  neccesarily directly related to Folsom High School's music department)

I think seeking national recognition for a public music program is pointless. In some cases, it can be harmful. Music awards say little about the actual education going on within a program. If you are spending a great deal of time preparing for contests -- particularly those related to marching band -- very little music instruction takes place.

If a music program REALLY wants to impress me, there would be mandatory exit testing. Kids would be tested on a variety of things, including:

- Reading
- Sight reading
- Interpretation
- Tone (or technique and versatility for percussionists)

If 3 out of 10 kids leave the school with the ability to sight read at tempo, that would have to be considered a public music program worth merit (and financial support). It would certainly exceed the averages. On the other hand, plaques on the wall don't impress me. This is art, not sport.

As someone with 15 years of experience as a player and educator in public music education (state individual award winner, member of national award winning groups, section instructor, one time music major), I see too many groups traveling and not enough emphasis on real education.

I'll end on a real experience: two summers ago I was temporarily contracted to help a drumline north of Sacramento that had won a few awards in the years previous to my arrival. I anticipated my help would only be needed as a tertiary response. As I passed out one draft of a very common drum break, the 22 drummers in the line looked at me as if I had just handed them a foreign language. They had always learned through mimic and repetition. Only two of them had the first clue how to work through the notes on the page. All 22 left without asking me to teach them how to properly read it. When I informed the director, he told me -- in no uncertain terms -- he was only concerned they'd be able to perform on the field, that there was no time to teach all those drummers the essentials they had somehow missed in their previous experience in that system.

I severed my contract immediately and I refuse to volunteer for any program that does not share my values.

- You may have your own experience but you weren't the teacher at Folsom High School and I know you said you werent directing towards Folsom High, but as far as your drum line thing goes, I am a drummer...I know...most drummers are idiots. Youre also probably talking about the Sacramento Freelancers...which is a very well known line across the country.

Reading a piece of music doesn't always equal education. Education can come from experience as well, and thats what these classes, relationships, and music trips well go on provide us for own and for the future.

I agree with your statement about an exit exam type of thing, but that's like an SAT or STAR test that you have to do, but for music...it proves nothing. It seems like youre really stuck on kids being able to read music, so to clarify...you can still be talented as all heck and be lost looking at a page of black dots. Thanks.

-PJ

[PJ James]

This thread gives me the urge to gouge my eyes out with forks. No seriously. RIDICULOUS.

What's with this "fees" vs. "dues" vs. "voluntary payments?" If we ("we" in my case being the Jazz Choir) don't pay, we don't go to any festivals or competitions, it's as simple as that. Even so, we're never harrassed to pay or sent "OVER DUE" notices. They ALWAYS tell us if we can't pay, go talk to them. There's waivers and scholarships available if you can't.

The directors make squat from their teachers salary and the music boosters. There's absolutely nothing going on that's illegal here. The boosters and directors have aready been audited because of this (censored) and they found NOTHING. So why didn't she drop it? Mrs. Kinsella, That (gratuitious name-calling) is out on a personal vendetta. It can't be "deep pockets" because she can't get anything out of it (you can't squeeze blood from a damned rock, can you?). There's no "trying to save the music department" or "clean-up" or even "trying to make a point" going on here. The boosters never hid anything form anyone, and parents of people involved in the music program were ALWAYS made aware of meetings and were welcome to go. This is HER deal alone. And people are actually SIDING with this woman? The woman who stood up at a boosters meeting and called the colorguard (correct me if I'm wrong here) "fat cows?"

NICE, everyone, nice. [/sarcasm]

I'm also amazed that so many people who have had absolutely NOTHING to do with the music department seem to think they have something valuable to say here...and think they know what they're talking about?

Sure, if you want the music boosters to stop doing their JOB so the best music program in the country goes under, GO AHEAD. Support the lawsuit! I can't believe channel 3 reported on this crap...someone yells "scandal" and the press comes running, whether it's a load of CRAP or not.

Friggin ridiculous...

Drugarebad, KPFaith, Education, rlflowers...anyone who think the lawsuit is "just" in some way....
just...
no.

(clap clap clap clap clap clap) That's all im doing right now. This is perfectly true, these band directors make squat. And I know, hearing it from the man himself, that the director spends more time with us as students then he does his own kids on the 52 weekends in a year. The man is amazing and he works his butt off. Anyone who would like to say otherwise, please contact me, I would love to debate this with you.

I am a senior at Folsom High School right now and am just disgusted by this whole thing. I have been in the music program since 5th grade and the Jazz program since 6th. I can truely say that I dont know what I would have done without this program. I remember being told in 5th grade that I wasn't cut out for music, then turned right around and began playing drums in the jazz band the year later. This program has given me direction for my future and a real purpose to go to school. I am not a scholar what-so-ever and so being in Jazz Band gave me a love for attending everyday.

I can speak for my parents and say that I know they don't have a problem paying for me to go to places like The Reno Jazz Festival, The Santa Cruz Jazz Festival, The Lionel Hampton Festival in Idaho, The North Texas State Jazz Festival, and a tour across Europe, just to name a few places. And not only do we attend these places, we win everywhere. If you don't believe me, look in the paper from last week, this week, and next week...you'll see.

This is the only INTERNATIONALLY recognized thing that our school has. Our STAR and SAT testing scores always suck, our sports teams aren't very good...the only other thing that has been recognized for it's incredible performance is the musicals and plays. I mean seriously...have you ever seen football player from Folsom High go on to the NFL. NO!!! But if you look at how many alumni from the music program are playing professionally and making a career out of what they have been taught here...you'll once again see we arents a bunch of hack kids.

I think what makes me so upset about all of this is that CERTAIN people wouldn't even stop to look or think about what this program has done for there kids. Regardless of the price you pay. You have to be completely brain dead to not realize that it takes money to transport a band by bus or plane, to and from Idaho or Texas. And CERTAIN people might say, "well then the district should pay for it!" Look at all of our budget cuts, when I break a drum head at school, it takes three weeks to get a new one!

I don't know If I can even express how disappointed I will be if this program doesn't continue. Of course it won't really apply to me next year, but for my friends that will still be here, if they dont get to feel the amount of sonic privledge I have felt at the end of there time in this program, I really might start gouge my eyes out with forks. I also have two brothers who both play instruments and one will be attending school here next year, the other will in 3 years...if they lose there opportunity to do what I have done, it'll be a real shame.

It's horrible what all the people involved in the boosters and music program have gone through so far because of this dispute. I have never heard the teacher say anything about "having to pay or else!!!". That never happened, I have been in four years and was in the same band as certain peoples kids during their last year and never heard it once. This is program is strong, and we're all against this. So GOOD LUCK!!! We wont go down without a fight!

- PJ

P.S. I'm in the Jazz Band A, Jazz Choir and Symphony and havent been in marching band for the past two years. The teacher didn't give me any grief what-so-ever. Generally, if you approach it, kind of like not being able make your payments, there is usually a solution...asking always helps.