219 replies to this topic

[Steve Heard]

mtnhiker

You can't blame John for 'cutting through' your neighborhood.

People drive the quickest and most convenient routes.

We can't stop everyone who approaches our street to ask their business there, nor should we.

We all have the right to drive the streets of Folsom, whether they be residential or not.

[Folsomite]

I respect everyone's opinions on this wholeheartedly, but I don't think the road closure is working. It makes matters much worse. I empathise with Sibley Street residents but I honestly don't consider that street a residential street. One only needs to look at a map to see it is a major thoroughfare for Folsom. I understand you live there and I feel for you, but I would have never moved there in the first place. Part of where you choose to live is location. You chose not to live on a culdesac or court or whatever, you chose to live on one of the busiest streets in Folsom.

I think the wants/needs of a few dozen residents along your street are hurting several thousand. I have a serious problem with the city all of a sudden just shutting down roads forcing traffic to bottleneck and make things worse. We are setting an unsettling precedent here and short of a new bridge, some people are going to suffer in the meantime because of the road closure. If it's the residents who chose to live on Sibley, so be it. Sorry to say it so bluntly but it's how I feel.

[Sibley Resident]

StevetheDad,

Are you saying that peoples rights to drive on any street they want including residential (might I add, a right that is not taken away, anyone can still drive on them just can't get to them the same way, kind of like no left hand turns or one way streets etc.. you can still drive on them, you just get to them in a different way) when there are viable alternatives for them, outweighs a neighborhoods right to be provided a reasonable amount of expected safety and quality of life by the city they live in. A quality of life might I add that this city even advertises on it’s web page along with its claim of outstanding residential neighborhoods. I don’t see were they advertise driving anywhere they want or through the alleyways, drainage ditches or peoples yards. If there were not viable alternatives like the 4 main arterials surrounding the neighborhood I might give a little weight to your argument. I would have to assume from your argument that we should then tear down the walls and Iron fences that are in place around many of the city's other neighborhoods so I and everyone else can have the right to drive through them to get to the street on the other side, right?

I would like to also add that what we are asking for and requesting the city to provide us, is documented in the City’s General Plan. We do have a right to expect and request atleast a level of service C or above to be provided to us,currently our neighborhood streets could be rated at least a D or F. We also have the right to ask the city to remove through traffic from our neighborhood- The Transportaion and Circulation Element Goals and Policies - The protection of residential neighborhoods from through-traffic.

I'm not sure when the defination of residential street was changed but my understanding of it, is a street with residenses on it where people live. That would be Sibley between Glenn and Natoma which again is entirely residential except one house that was turned into a daycare. It's amazing how people can arbitruarily change the definition of something to suit them.

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (Folsomite @ May 10 2004, 01:58 PM)

I empathise with Sibley Street residents but I honestly don't consider that street a residential street.

Why not? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since 4,000 plus other drivers each day don't view it as a residential street, either. Instead, you all see it as an attractive way to shave a few minutes off of the drive to wherever it is you're going with no regard whatsoever for the people who do live along the street. If the fact that this is one of the narrowest streets in the entire city, that it is completely lined with housing, and that it has "Residential Neighborhood" signs posted along it doesn't convince you that it's a residential street, what will? It's very convenient to just decide not to consider it a residential street...that way, you can just look down your nose at the people who live along it and consider their concerns invalid. It also must make it a lot easier for the hundreds and hundreds of drivers who speed down this street as though it were Greenback Lane, despite the 25 mph speed limit and the aforementioned "Residential Neighborhood" signs. Just because the street connects where you are with where you want to be, that doesn't give you the authority to deem it non-residential.

[Lembi Resident]

Folsomite:

First, if you've read this entire thread, you will see that the City did not put into effect this 30-day trial without considerable discussion and deliberation. This is not the beginning of a rash of street closures throughout the city. This is an attempted traffic calming measure. Traffic calming is a well-accepted approach to improving traffic conditions in a targeted area, and is practiced throughout the United States, Europe and Australia. Closures are typically applied only after other measures have failed or been determined to be inappropriate.

Secondly, a new bridge would not be a magic bullet to solve many of this neighborhood's traffic problems.

Finally, you speak of choices. When most residents of these neighborhoods chose to live here, the traffic was not unacceptable as it is now. Yes, we all make choices. I suppose Folsom residents can choose a community, neighborly spirit, or not!

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (Folsomite @ May 10 2004, 01:58 PM)

I understand you live there and I feel for you, but I would have never moved there in the first place. Part of where you choose to live is location. You chose not to live on a culdesac or court or whatever, you chose to live on one of the busiest streets in Folsom.

Keep in mind that many of the people who live along Sibley have lived there a long, long time. When they moved to Folsom (or were born here), the idea that the city might someday be as populace as it now is probably didn't enter their imagination. Heck, when I was a kid (not all THAT long ago!), I had a friend who lived right off of Sibley. I recall the street being pretty quiet back then. In fact, we used to ride our bikes and skateboards right down the middle of Sibley with no fear of being hit by a car, because a car only came along every few minutes. When I moved back to Folsom and purchased my home near Sibley a couple of years ago, it was with that memory in mind. Even a couple of years ago, the traffic was nowhere near as constant as it is now. The creation of a major business center up Prarie City and the construction of the Natoma Crossing has turned Sibley into an attractive shortcut for those going both directions - a shortcut that I don't believe the city anticipated and which it is now taking some conservative measures to correct. The residents along Sibley deserve a modicum of protection from careless drivers and some level of quality of life, even if it's purchased with the slight inconvenience of those who could care less about those residents. Keep in mind that the "inconvenience" created by this closure more directly impacts those who live in the neighborhood than anyone else, as they aren't given some kind of secret route into their own neighborhood - they have to go around just like anybody else.

[Folsomite]

Hey when we have the bridge it will be the magic bullet as far as I'm concerned. You can shut down Sibley permanently, it would not affect me because Folsom-Auburn would have been cleared up and I wouldn't need to cut through anyway. I never used it prior to the dam road closure.

I'm not advocating people who speed through or drive on your lawn. I have always used it as a cut through but I've also made the conscious decision to drive the speed limit, as I do realize that people do live there. If this means irritating the guy behind me, so be it. By the way, a good deterrent to people driving over your lawn is to put large landscaping rocks on it - then if they hit it, it'll damage their cars. It's a fairly common problem in high traffic neighborhoods and they do the trick.

I don't view it as a residential street because it's a major thoroughfare. Planned or not, it is. There may be some old-timers who remember when it was a quiet street, but I sure don't. All I know is I used to drive the speed limit through the neighborhood and get to the other side of Folsom in a reasonable amount of time, and now it's impossible. I wonder how it will effect Thursday Night Market traffic this year.

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (john @ May 8 2004, 09:23 PM)

Traffic is most definitely worse now with the road closure. Glenn Road is a mess every day. It's probably added 15 minutes to getting over the river... a 15-minute drive to the other side of the river (with the dam road closure) is now a half an hour.

Interesting. I've not found this to be the case for me, and I go across the river between 5 and 6 pm at least a couple of times a week. Seeing the additional cars backed up on Glen waiting to get on to Folsom, I decided to time it. From the time I stopped at the back of the line of cars to when I actually turned on to Folsom Blvd. was 3 and a half minutes. It seemed like longer than that, but that's all it was. The "line of cars" was nowhere near as long as the line previously located on Sibley street waiting to turn left onto Natoma, and only serves to highlight the effectiveness of this 3 hour closure. Those cars diverted down Glenn would have likely spent just as much time or more waiting in the neighborhood than they did on Glenn. What's more, it seems that the flow of traffic on Folsom Blvd between Blue Ravine and Natoma, while still slow, has improved significantly. Perhaps this is due to the reduction in traffic entering Folsom from Natoma. In any case, my overall time to get from home to the Beals Point area has changed insignificantly (about 1 minute more one day and about 30 seconds shorter another) since the closure has been put in place. I would imagine that much the same would hold true trying to get downtown by using the Sutter Street exit from Folsom Boulevard rather than going down Sibley and through the neighborhood.

[Lembi Resident]

The first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want.

Ben Stein

(Quoted from Folsomite's signature line)

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And what is the second step? Go, for it, no matter whom you step on in the process.

[Orangetj]

Folsomite,

Thanks for at least respecting the speed limit in the area. Based on my entirely unscientific observations, I would say that you are in the distinct minority in doing so! One problem is that there seems to be no real way to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in that it's pretty difficult to keep the speeders out while letting the more considerate drivers through.

You say that you never used Sibley prior to the Dam road closure on the one hand, but you also imply that one would have to be an "old timer" to remember when the street was more quiet. The Dam's only been closed for a few years, so you wouldn't have to be a particularly long-time resident to know that the traffic has increased dramatically. As I understand it, the most recent traffic study done in the area showed up to 6,000 cars per day using the street. That is a lot of cars, and far more than should be carried by a residential street. Given that the city defines Sibley as a residential street and not a main arterial, my opinion is that your own assessment of it as a "major thoroughfare" is all but irrelevant. I agree that this city has traffic problems, but the city is absolutely correct in recognizing that it has a duty to protect the residents of negatively impacted areas. I applaud them for doing so.

[Sibley Resident]

Everyone can focus on Sibley all they want but if you were educated on the problems of this area you would realize the debate about Sibley is rather irrelevant. The problems are about entire neighborhoods, Sibley and other residential streets that connect to Sibley. This is not and never has been about one residential street. As long as what is happening to Sibley, is permitted to happen it will continue to affect other residential streets too. Sibley is not a street all by itself, it is a residential street that is part of our neighborhoods, but even if you don’t think so, Persifer, Reading, Wool, Decatur, Orange Grove and Lembi are all residential streets in our neighborhoods (or do you not consider them residential either) that are being effected by what is happening to Sibley. Sibley is not the debate; the welfare of entire neighborhoods and what is in the best interest of those neighborhoods now and in the future is the issue. I know we all have a tendency to consider only the here and now but this is not just about the here and now. Even if you consider what is happening to our neighborhoods acceptable, which it is not, try and look beyond today and realize what is happening now is not the end of it, it will not stay exactly how it is right now, the last two+ years has just been the beginning. Sibley is the catalyst of the problems affecting the neighborhoods it is a part of. A residential street that is being treated in the manner it should not be that is also affecting every residential street in the neighborhoods connected to it, unless the city does something about it. I greatly appreciate their efforts and imagine you would to if something was happening to your neighborhood that you needed assistance with. Some of you might be more than willing to sell out the so called few on one street, which I find entirely unacceptable, but you need to realize, that is not what you are doing. You are selling out entire neighborhoods. I guess just as long as the rest of you are not adversely affected or inconvenienced, then it’s ok.

[Pacoloco]

QUOTE (Orangetj @ May 10 2004, 03:42 PM)

One problem is that there seems to be no real way to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in that it's pretty difficult to keep the speeders out while letting the more considerate drivers through.

This line is so true. This forum has 500+ members and even more readers. But, there are 6,000 to 8,000 cut-through commuters running through the affeceted residential streets on a daily basis. This is in a residential neighborhood of about 400 homes. Most of these cut-thorugh commutters are on Sibley, a street that is only 23-feet wide near to Natoma. If those 6,000 commutters were as knowledgable of the situation as all the forum members, we would not be having this discussion, nor need to implement a timed closure. However, this is not the case, and a timed closure is the most effective method for this situation.

[Shadow]

I used to be able to leave work at 5pm, pick up my children at Creative Discoveries and be home by 5:20pm. With Sibley Closed, When I leave work at 5pm, I barely make it to Creative Discoveries by 6pm. Folsom blvd is like a parking lot from Natoma Station all the way past Bidwell after 5pm. I have had to leave work early in order to ensure that I can pick up my children before the day care closes. I can not do this much beyond the trial period.

I have legitimate purposes for using Sibley. My tax dollars go towards maintaining Sibley. My back yard is directly on Sibley and I do hear the noise. I do understand and sypathize with the residents whose homes face Sibley. But closing Sibley is not the solution to the issue. It provides a few residents with the benefit of a quiet street at the significant expense of their neighbors who have legitimate reasons for traveling on Sibley and of the local businesses in the area.

We can not allow streets to be closed to through traffic simply because people live on them. If that were the case we would then need to close Bidwell, Lembi, Cobble Ridge, and other residential streets in Folsom simply because people use them to get to local businesses.

Commuter traffic is an issue. Instead of closing streets and funnelling more unnecessary traffic onto Riley and Folsom, the solution should be to find a way to make the traffic on Riley and Folsom flow more smoothly so that commuter traffic will uses these streets instead of using the local residential streets to escape the traffic on Riley and Folsom.

Also, left turn from Bidwell onto Riley is just as dangerous as from Lembi onto Riley. If we allow for no left from Lembi to Riley because it is dangerous, why not block lefts from Bidwell onto Riley?

If we contniue to follow the logic that streets need to be closed and left truns blocked solely because of high traffic volumes, pretty soon the streets of Folsom will become more like an impossible maze (more so than they already are) and we will be the rats trying to travel that impossible maze.

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (Shadow @ May 11 2004, 02:16 PM)

I used to be able to leave work at 5pm, pick up my children at Creative Discoveries and be home by 5:20pm. With Sibley Closed, When I leave work at 5pm, I barely make it to Creative Discoveries by 6pm. Folsom blvd is like a parking lot from Natoma Station all the way past Bidwell after 5pm. I have had to leave work early in order to ensure that I can pick up my children before the day care closes. I can not do this much beyond the trial period.

Shadow,

I guess I'm curious as to how it can take 40 additional minutes for you to get to Creative Discoveries on Sibley due to this closure, when I'm able to get from Blue Ravine to Granite Bay using Folsom/Auburn Folsom in less than a half an hour during rush hour.

I understand that you have a legitimate use for driving down Sibley, but nobody's use is more legitimate than those who actually live along the street. Let's not forget that they, too, are subject to the closure and face the same traffic on the main arterials as you do. They are dealing with the same inconveniences as you are just to get to their own homes. The fact that they are willing to do so, and gladly, should serve to make the point that the traffic on that street has gotten unacceptable. Let's also not forget that this 3 hour/day closure comes after A LOT of work to try to come up with a workable solution. The truth of the matter seems to be that there is no other way to discourage the use of this residential street as a major thoroughfare/de facto arterial route than by closing it off completely.

If you have any suggestions as to how to reduce traffic in Folsom's historic neighborhoods, I would love to hear them. Maybe you'll think of something that has not been considered? Who knows. The bottom line is that SOMETHING has to be done about this problem, that 6,000 cars a day is way too much for any neighborhood to have to endure, and that relying on the simple consideration of drivers is not going to solve the problem. If we could simply ask that people not use Sibley as a cut through and have them agree to that, the world would be a better place. The reality is that people with no vested interest in a neighborhood couldn't care less about those who's lives they are affecting by contributing to an intolerable level of traffic. For this reason, those who do live in this area have no choice but to fight for some measure of safety, peace and quality of life in their own homes.

OrangeTJ

[Pacoloco]

Shadow, I don't know where you're coming from, but it sounds like you are simply taking the wrong path. Try different routes until you find one that you are comfortable with. Or try different (later) departure times. My home is near Creative Discoveries, and with the closure in place I would say that, at worst, I spend an additional 5 minutes driving to get home. There have been times when I've gotten home *faster* than before the closure too. And this is me leaving the office at ~5:30pm.

Believe us when we say that there has been a lot of work, research, and effort made, not just by the neighborhood residents, but by the City of Folsom Traffic & Safety Engineers, and this is the best solution. If there was any way to improve Folsom or Riley, or any other way to improve traffic altogether, then the closure would never have been put in place.