165 replies to this topic

[disenchanted]

Folsom Jr.; it truly seems that is exactly what the judge based his decision on - solely their testimony and none of the evidence was there to support their accusations. In fact, the defense revealed so many facts, omissions and inconsistencies that negated what they said in my opinion.

I keep wondering about the brave young man whose conscience told him to come forward and tell what his friend told him about it being a lie. It was clear that he was deeply pained to have to tell on her but that he followed his conscience and made a decision to do the right thing, even at the risk of losing that family as his friends. What did this boy learn from this after all that? - That telling the truth in the end didn't matter. How sad .

Lastly, I'll never forget the sound of that boy's mother's sobs as the courtroom cleared. It will haunt me forever.

[Ahnold]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that a judge would callously disregard hard evidence and in doing so subject an innocent young man to 10 years of prison. He either was bound by the legal system (possibly supporting your assertions that the pendulum has swung too far) or there was sufficient, convincing evidence and testimony to support his ruling.

If the pendulum has swung too far, it is for all of the reasons that have been discussed on this board. Not only does a victim have to overcome the feelings of shame and violation to be brave enough to come forward, but then the victim is subjected to this humiliating process, questioning her motives, her behavior, why she didn't do this or do that. That's a lot of hurdles to have to clear to bring justice to an assailant while trying to heal from the assault!

Of this particular case, I hope justice was truly served. If not, the young man that is paying the price is not the only person to lose. All future victims of this crime will lose credibility.

[camay2327]

QUOTE (forumreader @ Jun 25 2004, 08:53 AM)

disenchanted: Since I was not present at the trial, and only have the information that I've read, I do not want to comment on the specifics of this case. However, you bring up a very important point. Has the pendulum swung too far? This calls to mind a conversation I had recently with a friend regarding taking her child to a regular pediatric check-up. My friend was concerned because her 4-yr-old has been going through a clumsy phase, and has quite a few bruises and scrapes. She was worried that the pediatrician might question the bruises and report her to Child Protective Services. (First of all, there are not really not that many bruises, and they look like normal kid stuff. Secondly, I know this family well. They are great parents.) -- The point is, why should a good parent even have this concern? I've heard other young parents wondering whether or not a swat on the behind was considered "abusive" these days. Has the pendulum swung a little too far? The intentions of protecting children are good, but .....? Regarding acquaintance rape, perhaps we should also be concerned that the pendulum has swung too far. In the noble interest of informing women about acquaintance rape, and prosecuting the assailants, has the legal system has put the accused in a prejudiced state? I don't know if that is the case. But it is important enough to cause concern. Rape, acquaintance or stranger rape, is clearly a violent crime involving control, power, and violation. Unfortunately, in our sexually permissive society, the gray area regarding acquaintance/date rape and issues of consent has ballooned and complicated the definition of the crime. Not making reference to this case in Folsom, we can't forget that each false accusation of rape hurts all the legitimate victims of rape. It increases the chance that women will not report the crime, and puts rape survivors in the position of not being believed.

I do not know if this person accused of the rape had the choice of a jury trial or not, but if he did and was not advised by his parents or trial lawyer someone made a big mistake.

Guilty or not, I would take my chance with 12 people on a jury because if there is reasonable doubt you are considered not guilty.

Again, I feel the same way as Ahnold who I quote:


Of this particular case, I hope justice was truly served. If not, the young man that is paying the price is not the only person to lose. All future victims of this crime will lose credibility.

Unquote:

[Julio]

Boys can only date my girls if they are invited to my home for a visit first.
While showing them around, they inevitably get to see my gun collection.
I show them pictures of what the slugs do to targets.
They also find out that I'm really good with the rifles.

And then, before he leaves on a date with my girl, I pull him aside and let him know that if he should go beyond the bounds, his bullet-riddled body would be tied with cinderblocks and dumped off the coast.

Not surprisingly, the dates always return the girls on time.



-Julio

[Terry]

QUOTE (Julio @ Jun 25 2004, 11:35 AM)

Boys can only date my girls if they are invited to my home for a visit first. While showing them around, they inevitably get to see my gun collection. I show them pictures of what the slugs do to targets. They also find out that I'm really good with the rifles. And then, before he leaves on a date with my girl, I pull him aside and let him know that if he should go beyond the bounds, his bullet-riddled body would be tied with cinderblocks and dumped off the coast. Not surprisingly, the dates always return the girls on time. -Julio

Or do like actor Bruce Willis says he'll do when his three daughters start dating: the first guy who comes to do the door to date one of his daughters will be shot (not mortally), and when he recovers, he'll spread the word!

[forumreader]

QUOTE (Ahnold @ Jun 25 2004, 11:10 AM)

If the pendulum has swung too far, it is for all of the reasons that have been discussed on this board.  Not only does a victim have to overcome the feelings of shame and violation to be brave enough to come forward, but then the victim is subjected to this humiliating process, questioning her motives, her behavior, why she didn't do this or do that.  That's a lot of hurdles to have to clear to bring justice to an assailant while trying to heal from the assault!

Exactly! Thank you, Ahnold.

All the more reason, as I posted yesterday, that the community of Folsom should be thankful that these survivors were so courageous to work through the legal process. Under the assumption the justice was served, society is now a little safer, and the healing process for all involved can continue.

To again quote Anhold,

[QUOTE]
Rape is such an abhorrent crime, such a personal violation, sometimes you wonder if people simply are unwilling to believe that one human could force themselves onto another like that and would rather believe that it had to be consensual. Why else would society choose to further humiliate the victims? [QUOTE]

In a certain sense, I am glad that we are having such a lengthy discussion of this issue. It shows how appropriately disturbed we are about the crime of rape, and how much we want to see a just resolution.

However, I sincerely hope that this controversial discussion will not deter anyone who has been, or in the future, might be touched by this horrible crime from seeking justice through the legal system, if that is her choice. Fortunately, there are many supportive resources in the community that understand rape better than most of us in this forum.

[bigsheldy]

The Judge either knows something we don't (highly unlikely), is an idiot, or thinks this kid deserves something. I don't know why a judge with any of those qualities would be a judge (minus the knowing something part). The kid was held in Juvenile Hall without any evidence that he did anything other than saying he had consentual sex with her. Isn't that a violation of his constitutional rights? Where are all the Democrats who are always preaching about civil liberties and blah blah blah in this case? This is disgusting to me, because it means that any girl can simply go to the office and say she was raped and then the kid gets convicted-bar none. She had no evidence he raped her. I guess I can just go to the principal and say a girl raped me, then she'll go to Juvenile Hall for four months and then be convicted without a fair trial.

edit: Coming forward and saying you got raped is by no means proof that you WERE raped. Anyone can say they were raped.

[TheCourtJester]

WITCH WITCH....He's a WITCH.

See the little yellow bird? It's the devil speaking to him!



Ring a bell, anyone?

[Steve Heard]

There are many crimes that can be difficult to prove. The judge, who was hired because of his knowledge of the law, and his ability to use 'judgement', has to weigh all of the facts, evidence, and statements, then draw a conclusion.

Based on testimony of the experts (he is 'hypersexed', he told them he uses drugs and alcohol, and uses sex to 'relieve stress' at 15 years of age), testimony of the victim (she says he did it), testimony of the girls (he was aggressive and touched them inappropriately), and the boy's statemet (admitting that he tricked her into going into the bathroom by saying he was sick), the judge drew the conclusion that the allegations were true.

The only 'evidence' to the contrary is 4 boys who claim to have seen her hop up on the toilet.

I find it incredible that during one period, when everybody else is learning, 4 different honors chemistry students, each coming and going separately, had to use the bathroom, and each thought it a good idea to look under the stall for a leg count. I be a little suspicious if 4 of my students, honors student no less, each had to go to the bathroom.

[bordercolliefan]

What are you suggesting, Steve, about the Honors Chemistry students? That they never went in the bathroom at all -- and decided subsequently to cook up a story supporting the accused? (Why? Were they friends of his?) Or that they went into the bathroom for some purpose other than using the bathroom?

I agree... it is unusual for 4 kids all to have to go to the bathroom during one class. Perhaps the first one returned and whispered to the others, "You've got to see what's going on in the bathroom" or something like that. I haven't heard any evidence as to why they would be motivated to lie for the accused.

Sometimes judges make a decision based on overall justice or the "greater good," even if the facts don't totally support it in a given case. (As a former civil trial attorney, I can attest that we all knew this happened sometimes). It is possible the judge looked at the pattern of behavior, the testimony of the experts, and the bad home environment and decided the kid deserved to be punished (and hopefully rehabilitated) -- even if particular elements of the rape allegation didn't totally add up. After all, it sounds like everyone now agrees that this was a troubled kid who was sexually aggressive. (What does "hyper-sexed" mean, anyway? This doesn't sound like a term you expect to come out of a professional psychologist's mouth.)

[disenchanted]

Stevethedad,

Actually the Honors Chemistry teacher testified that she noticed the boys coming back to class one by one chuckling and giving one another eye gestures toward the restroom.

What 15 year old boy isn't hypersexed? How many males use sex as a way to relieve stress? My husband has asked for it many times citing the same reason and he's no serial rapist. The psychiatrist whose credentials evaluating sex offenders was off the charts stated that his evaluation of the boy using standardized tests and personal interviews showed that he does not fit the profile of a sexual predator. This doctor also mainly testifies on behalf of the District Attorney's office. Ok, so this boy has experimented with marijuana and alcohol - wrong and sad but let's poll the students his same age at FHS and see how many of them have as well.

My teenagers have told me that sex on campus at FHS is commonplace and I find it very interesting that the school seemed much more interested in being able to say "hey we got rid of the bad apple" versus addressing the very issue of out of control sexuality on campus.

[disenchanted]

No expert ever testified that he came from a bad home environment. The boy's psychiatrist stated that it was possible that he was behaving promiscuously due to his parent's maritial problems. Now people having maritial problems have a bad home?

[FolsomJunior00]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Jun 25 2004, 03:01 PM)

I find it incredible that during one period, when everybody else is learning, 4 different honors chemistry students, each coming and going separately, had to use the bathroom, and each thought it a good idea to look under the stall for a leg count. I be a little suspicious if 4 of my students, honors student no less, each had to go to the bathroom.

Whats so incredible about it Steve? I know two of the four kids in that honors class, so let e draw the picture for you of what happened.


My good friend walked into the bathroom to, well, go to the bathroom. As he walked in he saw to pairs of feet in the first stall. He notcied one wasa girl's feet, and he saw them hop up onto the stall. So he continued to go to the bathroom, then went back to class. He proceeded to tell his friend and another good friend of mine about what he saw, along with the two other students. So, one by one, they went in to check it out themselves.

Now, you are probably thinking "why didnt they tell the teacher what they saw?"

In this day in age, tattletales are pointless and looked down upon, unless they are for serious situations. What my friends thought they saw in the stall was not rape, but two kids having sex. Normal? far from it. But they didnt think it was rape, and sadly to say, they thought two kids having sex in the stall was hilarious so they wanted to interupt them as much as possible.

And when you say 4 kids going to the bathroom one after the other is wierd (they didnt go as a group if thats what you are implying) then you need to come to the school more often. Many kids often "go to the bathroom" just so they can get out of class and get fresh air. heck, i did it many times to get out of class for 5 minutes. So, from my standpoint, nothing is "incredible" about those 4 kids as witnesses

[FolsomJunior00]

QUOTE (bordercolliefan @ Jun 25 2004, 03:29 PM)

I agree... it is unusual for 4 kids all to have to go to the bathroom during one class. Perhaps the first one returned and whispered to the others, "You've got to see what's going on in the bathroom" or something like that. I haven't heard any evidence as to why they would be motivated to lie for the accused.

Once again, its not unusual. You are not in high school and dont know. I swear, an avergae of 5-6 kids head to the bathroom A DAY in one period. nothing unusual about it, just need to walk around, especially in an incredibly boring class

[Steve Heard]

4 honors students? and they each check for legs under the stall doors?

do you?

and if that were the case, there should have been a lot more to witness the toilet hopping, with all of the surrounding classrooms, by your count, there should have been at least 30 to 60 different visitors. That's better than 1 every minute.