627 replies to this topic

[TM70]

H

[banana]

The cost of living is much higher in CA. Maybe we should all go teach in Alaska! Those greedy Alaskans!

Maybe you should go teach in Alaska. If it's higher pay and lower cost of living why aren't you there? Hmm, let me guess. Oh that's right, it's a wee bit cold there.

That's a trade off you made. Noone is forcing you to teach in CA. I doubt that you're a very good teacher, you seemed more focused on your income than public service, which is what public service jobs are known for, not high pay, but security, benefits, and a willingness to serve the public, for the public good.

Go teach at a charter school. The pay is higher. Why don't you? Because you know there's no security there. You can and will be fired if you're substandard. There is no tenure.

YOU TOTALLY NEGLECTED TO POST COMMENTS FROM BOTH SIDES.

See, here's the PROBLEM...I gave you BOTH SIDES of the issue in the links. Something you couldn't seem to do...and you IMMEDIATELY gravitated to your own BIASED side.

There's no good reason why anyone here should have to defend your position. You need to make your case, defend and rationalize your own position. Don't expect others to make your case for you. Why doesn't it surprise me that you'd take such an approach?

See, I can see we have a good gig, but prices go up, a COLA comes down, the district sees that they are pitifully low on benefits in COMPARISON to surrounding districts and they still hold the money. Why not FIGHT for better benefits?

Prices go up? Gee, I guess all of us private sector workers are immune to price increases. COLA comes down? You're lucky to have COLA. There's no such animal in the private sector. You may or may not get a raise and your raise may or may not keep up with inflation, and if you don't like that you quit and find another higher paying job that does keep up with inflation. You may find that job or maybe not, but that's the risk you take.

What risk are you willing to take?

Join the private sector?

Leave and go teach at a charter school where you may lose your job and you will not have tenure?

Would you commit to improving the performance of your class by a certain percentage equivalent to your percentage increase and if you don't, willingly leave?

I'm guessing the answer is no to all of the above. You want the status quo with higher pay.

I know teachers get paid O.K. overall, but are still WAY behind the curve.

If you know that, stop complaining and go do what you're being paid to do - teach, and if you don't like the pay, well, last time I checked, this is America, you're free to leave and find other higher paying work elsewhere.

As for the 2nd part, what? You were just shown teacher pay data normalized for 12 months at $100k/yr. Way behind the curve relative to what?





Source: http://www.payscale....lifornia/Salary

FCUSD was third in test scores for the region, but fourteenth in pay + benefits. Please, please try to explain that one away and please comment on the story in the Telegraph. Are those all lies too?

3rd place? Excellent! So lets put this in context of corporate America.

For starters, if you're 3rd, you're on probation and/or fired - refer to 1/2/3 scale above, but lets ignore that for now.

What place were you last year? (From 3rd to 3rd isn't an improvement. Maybe we went from 2nd to 3rd or 30th to 3rd. Need to put it in context )

What was your specific contribution to FCUSD achieving 3rd place (assuming it's an improvement)? For all we know, your class could have done poorly relative to every other class.

But lets assume the best. You personally were responsible for driving the performance of FCUSD to 3rd place and it's an improvement over last year's 7th place.

Well then, you've done well. Here's the proverbial pat on the back. Enjoy your COLA, it's well deserved.

This happens in corporate America ALL the time, and anyone who doesn't like it is free to leave!

I just tell them to ask their parents. They can speak for or against us outside of school. Bash me...support me...

Well, I for one explain things to my kids in the context of the real world. Lets take an example that you provided below.

You deserve the facts:

1. Why did the District ask for, and the teachers agree to, a pay cut of 1.5 % three years ago?
* To save class size reduction for primary grades (1st-3rd) 20 to 1 ratio. The data is iron-clad irrefutable that lower class sizes DOES translate to better education of your children.

I take this to mean that you would vote for whatever is best for the kids?

If that's a yes, then I take it you support vouchers? Taxpayers pay their taxes and that money should come back to the taxpayer allowing them to choose the BEST school for their kids.

Naturally, that will take out some kids from their public school as parents choose charter schools which provide better education with less money and resources in many cases, or private schools which again, outperform public schools in most cases.

The public schools would see the number of students drop, so the student teacher ratio would improve unless of course the schools are so shortsighted that they cut back on teachers instead of cutting back elsewhere in their budgets.

In any event, all kids end up with a better education. As you put it,

Don't you want the BEST and the BRIGHTEST teaching your children?

Absolutely! Unfortunately, the nature of public schools is that they prohibit competition, so I can't get the best and brightest, I can only get what is forced upon me as I have no choice, and they don't have to prove that their the best and brightest through competition, because they don't compete.

Of course, I too have a choice. I can move to a better school district, or I can double pay for education - the first time through taxation to support an inefficient, non-competitive, government monopoly, and then the 2nd time to send my kids to private school.

This is the truth about public education in America. If you truly supported the kids, and you were the best and brightest of teachers, you'd support vouchers, you'd have no fear of working without a net (tenure), you'd gladly work in charter schools, you wouldn't support a union structure, but would look to open your profession and the schools to competition.

You don't like Pepsi, you buy Coke. If your bank sucks, you move your money to a better bank. Cable is terrible, you get satellite. Don't like one Chinese food restaurant, you go to another. Hotels, Cars, Airlines, Supermarkets, Houses, Apartments, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, etc.

In virtually every aspect of our lives we have choice because of competition, and all of us are forced to deliver better products and services or go out of business (approx. 85-90% of new businesses go bankrupt in the first 5yrs).

The consumer benefits because of competition. So if you want what is best for the kids, and you want performance bonus increases and believe you are truly the best and brightest, you'd support parents, vouchers, charter schools, you'd speak out against teacher's unions and monopolies.

Can we count on your word that you want what's best for the kids and therefore count on your support to demand change and speak out against the status quo?



http://abcnews.go.co...=2841820&page=1
Parents Who Cheat for a Better School for Their Kids

http://www.opinionjo...ml?id=110009612
$34.06 an Hour
That's how much the average public school teachers makes. Is that "underpaid"?

[EDF]

Hey I had a conversation earlier this evening with a gal friend of mine that works for the Teachers Retirement system...

I was telling her about this thread... even she..., a state worker is appalled at the whining by teachers...

She says they have a much better retirement than state workers that have a lot more time in....and she told me that some districts pay the teachers extra for doing yard duty and for attending those cute little Chrismas, now known as "winter" pageants... she almost wouldn't shut up she was so mad... I guess I must have hit a nerve or something...

So even among other state workers teachers are getting less and less respect...

and it pisses me off to know that these same teachers are wearing green shirts to work to get the kids involved so they will pressure their parents to pressure the school board so they can get their stinking little raise...

This is the same despicable tactic they used to divide Folsom in our quest to "split the district".... but what do I know... except that teachers don't care about the kids when you really get down to it... no it's all about pay and benefits... isn't it...?

but you watch.. the school board will cave... This crap never stops...

I remember back in early 1999 speaking in front of about 300 or 400 of this same unruly crowd of teachers that packed a school board meeting in Rancho at Mills Middle School.... I was the only parent there to speak against them... the only one... and I pointed out how they only work 9 months out of the year... You know...that does get their goat.. man o man.. the boo's and the jeers...!!! and you know what... I loved it....all eyes were on me after I spoke.. I could just feel the love... and...after I spoke I went to stand next to an ex school board member who was also there..... she didn't really want to stand next to me after that...

Bottom line is parents have to get involved and back the school board in this situation or they will cave...

I've done my time... my kids are grown and out of the system.... it's your guys' turn now... go get em....

[tessieca]

People reading this...you don't understand how hard it is for her to say that one of the articles supports my position. If you have ever been to a school board meeting you know that this member/president is very demanding and firm.

You have issues! Why the personal attack, especially from an anonymous perch in your ivory tower? Is that a union tactic? Obviously you have never met me and do not know me. You posted 3 articles and asked us to read all 3. Two-thirds do not support your continuing rant, and I pointed it out. Quoting from articles you cited is really not hard for anyone, including me. Give me a call sometime. Have a chat. Luckily most people on this board know me better than you do and understand that I am not a cruel, evil, teacher hating fiend.

If I understand correctly, what you are saying the Union wants compared to what the District is offering the difference is only about 1.6 % plus another $100.00 towards the medical insurance. Is this what the disagreement is about?

Doesn't sound so bad when you use percentages, but that equates to somewhere around $1.4-1.6 million dollars. I'm not even going to ask what you would cut. If that kind of cuts were made in a people business like education, there would be real live people who lose jobs. That's a 100% pay decrease and loss of benefits. Tough on them?

[gottasmile]

Looking at the last School Board agenda, Vista Del Lago total estimated construction costs are $97,000,000...yes that's million! Russel Ranch Elementary total estimated construction cost is $16,800,000. Maybe the teachers, district and parents would be willing to have a regular high school building rather than another high school that looks like a college campus. We could pay the teachers raises with the money the district would save on construction costs. Just a thought!

[banana]

my kids are grown and out of the system....

That's why you can speak out and other parents didn't.

Speak out against the teacher's union and your kid will suffer the consequences. Parents are held hostage by the teacher's union and they use their union power to extort concessions.

Higher teacher pay does not equate to a better education for the kids. The teachers know that. What would they do different with the higher pay? Nothing. Status Quo would remain. So what exactly would be the improvement in the kids education?

"To wit, higher teacher pay seems to have no effect on raising student achievement. Metropolitan areas with higher teacher pay do not graduate a higher percentage of their students than areas with lower teacher pay.

Evidence suggests that the way we pay teachers is more important than simply what they take home. Currently salaries are determined almost entirely by seniority--the number of years in the classroom--and the number of advanced degrees accumulated. Neither has much to do with student improvement." http://www.opinionjo...ml?id=110009612

The ones doing the most complaining about pay don't care about the kids, they just use the kids as pawns like many divorcing parents do. They make statements like, "you get what you pay for" - a veiled threat of non-performance because they're bitter about their salary situation.

If it were a competitive market, we'd truly be getting what we pay for, but as it is, it doesn't matter what we pay, we'll never get what we pay for.

Not all teachers are bitter and not all are complaining. There are some good teachers out there, and I'd gladly replace the complainers with the good teachers and pay the good ones more, but alas, we can't do that. The teacher's union likes the status quo and won't be subjected to any kind of competition.

[tgianco]

The cost of living is much higher in CA. Maybe we should all go teach in Alaska! Those greedy Alaskans!

Just to educate you, Alaska has the 3rd highest cost of living of any state (only MA and CT are higher). CA has, technically, a lower cost of living than most of the northeastern states as well (http://ded.mo.gov/researchandplanning/indicators/cost_of_living/index.stm).

Let me point out why, my good teacher. Alaska is kind of out of the way, in the same way Hawaii is. To get food and other goods to Alaska costs more money, thus higher costs for those goods (Econ 101). Also, because of the colder climate in Alaska and long nights, the citizens, business and government require more energy. While Alaska has many resources, they are not self-sustaining in the energy department, either, so it costs more money for them to get the energy to Alaska. So it goes for other goods and services in Alaska.

This is also the 2nd time in this thread when I've seen a teacher throw out what they think they know and pass off like they are facts (sorry, but I thought it peculiar that San Mateo, living in CA, did not know that it meant Saint Matthew). Anyone from the city of San Mateo knows who it was named for, just like folks in San Francisco know who SF was named for. Do they know what Los Angeles means? Do we need rudimentaty CA history for our teachers?

Like I said before, I can see it both ways (earlier in the thread), but, if this is how our teachers are "teaching" (with bogus facts and nothing to justify their arguments), our educational system is in worse shape that most thought. As this thread has gone on, the arguments brought forth by our educators have grown worse.

I'm sure they are bright people (the two posting here), but sometimes it's better to make your case and then not duck out. No one is saying you are not justified to your opinion or that you are all wrong, but the other side has a more compelling case (or at least as presented here).

[TM70]

B

[Robert Giacometti]

Thanks for your even minded response. Yes, the difference is not THAT much. Not the top, not the bottom. It's the mandating instead of negotiating that is getting under a lot of people's skin. Right now the goal is to be a nuisance. We're not that annoying in real life...at least I don't think we are...

On another note to another poster...did you go home and create a new username Folsomfan? I like you...you make me laugh...

Now we are making progress....you implied that there might be a hidden issue of something else rather money. I'd politely suggest don't draw lines in the sand over issues regarding different styles from the messenger.....its a waste of time & energy and you could be doing more productive things.

[tessieca]

Looking at the last School Board agenda, Vista Del Lago total estimated construction costs are $97,000,000...yes that's million! Russel Ranch Elementary total estimated construction cost is $16,800,000. Maybe the teachers, district and parents would be willing to have a regular high school building rather than another high school that looks like a college campus. We could pay the teachers raises with the money the district would save on construction costs. Just a thought!

It's a common misconception that construction funds can be used for any kind of salaries whatsoever. They can't even be used for textbooks. It's education funding 101 and should be a different topic, but developer's fees, bonds, and state building funds go into a different pot and must be used for very specific purposes and absolutely never on salaries.

TM70, sorry that a few have bashed you. Most of us have not. Like TGIANCO said, most are willing to listen to facts. They might not agree with your opinion, but they'll consider it.

[gottasmile]

To any teacher in our district, I for one, want to let you know that our family supports you. Whether private or public sector, the job of a teacher is a darn hard one. Yes, they may only work 9 months out of the year, but the other months are usually taken up with tasks related to their job that they don't get credit for. Teachers are responsible for the educating and developing the minds of our children. They are responsible for providing a safe and enjoyable learning enviornment that will inspire students to learn. Balance that with state and federal testing mandates, decreased budget costs for classroom materials, and pressure from parents on all fronts....I say they do a pretty dang good job.

Now everyone can disagree and point the fingers at this or that, but it comes down to the morale and quality of teachers in our area. You get what you pay for. I know the outside private sector is difficult regarding salaries and raises...our family faced that as well (working 60 hour work weeks for minimal pay). But, I for one, would not have the patience, tolerance and ability to teach children as effectively as most of the teachers in our district do...and to do it with passion year after year after year. Yes, there are some bad teachers, but there are "bad workers" in every job field. It's the minority, not the majority.

If possible, I would like to see a resolution to this contract issue, on the side of the teachers. I personally think they DO deserve it!

[banana]

I'm new here, so basically I don't have an army of people to call up on the phone and get online to bash one person. Yes, the COLA in Alaska is much higher, yes, you are right, that was bait and the other poster took it. Went overboard and told me to go to Alaska...nice...

I doubt any of us is picking up the phone and calling each other. I'm certainly not, I don't know any of the other folks posting here, haven't met them and certainly don't have their numbers.

Bait? I couldn't care less what the COLA is in Alaska. You're the one that needs to do that research, not me. I'm positive teacher salaries are not uniform everywhere, so move to where you believe you'll get the higher pay. I don't care if it's Alaska or any other state. You're the one that's complaining about pay.

You're not willing to move to a state where you'd get paid more as a teacher.
You're not willing to move from Folsom to another district.
You're not willing to move into the private sector for the higher pay.
You're not willing to commit to higher performance for the higher pay.
You're not willing to teach in the same state in charter or magnet schools.
You're not willing to support vouchers, competition, and a system that would help the kids.
You're not willing to give up tenure and benefits in exchange for higher pay.
You're not willing to support parents in support of changing a broken system.
You're not willing to support students to ensure they get a better education

You are willing to use veiled threats of non-performance.
You are willing to use your students as pawns in a debate between adults on these issues.
You are willing to extort higher pay while making no concessions of your own.

Maybe we parents should start a "Support the Kids" campaign focusing on:
- school vouchers,
- school choice for kids,
- demanding more charter and magnet schools,
- pay for performance,
- hiring (and bonuses for) the best and brightest (a no tenure sub-campaign, but we'd hardly call it that)

so we can see the teacher's union counter ads
- against "Support the Kids"
- against education reform
- against the best school choice for kids
- against lower cost better performance charter schools
- against pay for performance
- against the best and the brightest

You stand for mediocrity, not meritocracy
You stand for monopoly power, and lack of choice, not competition and choice
You stand for the status quo, not improvement
You stand for mediocre performance, not excellence (through competition)
You stand for the average, not the best and the brightest
You stand for no (school) choice for kids

And worst of all, you stand on the backs of the children to deliver your message.

Yes, there are some bad teachers, but there are "bad workers" in every job field.

The difference is that in the private sector, a "bad worker" will be let go. Those don't last very long 3-6 months tops. Even very good/excellent workers are let go.

In the teaching profession, a tenured "bad worker" is impossible to get rid of, and once you reach tenure, what's the incentive to perform?

It's human nature, if all of us were told that we can't be fired or lose our jobs, we'd all ease up. I'm not saying we'd become slackers, but we certainly wouldn't put in the same hours.

You see, in the private sector we have the carrot (higher pay) and the stick (getting laid off) both work in concert to achieve the best performance possible.

In the public sector, the carrot is supposed to be (job security, benefits, and benevolence in serving the public, doing a public good). Unfortunately, workers in that sector quickly take for granted those things because they have them, and focus on the pay - so there is no carrot for those workers because the teacher's union prohibit excellent teachers from getting more compensation and bad/mediocre teachers from being laid off.

[EDF]

Banana...

regarding your comment about speaking out....

when I was active in school board issues... my boys were both in school...

The oldest one was an easy target because he is outgoing.. smart and gets bored to death.. he was an honor roll student like the younger one... but when he got older... he did "lose focus" a bit...

However... he wasn't picked on unless he got out of line with the teachers... some of the School Board members might have their kids get a little harrasment...subtle of course...

but all I did was tell my kids what I was doing and that they would be under a little more scrutiny then other kids might...

They handled it....

so you need to get out there... and get in their faces and support the School Board...

If no parents show up... then the unions will win...

go ahead... don't worry about the crowd.. they may hate you.. and laugh and jeer at you... but they will in the end respect you... because guess what the one thing Teachers and Educrats fear the most....?

IT'S THE PARENTS...!!!

[banana]

Utah House Passes Nation’s First Universal School Voucher Bill

A couple of hours ago, the Utah House of Representatives passed the nation’s first universal school voucher bill (HB 148) in a nail-biting 38-37 vote. From what I hear coming out of Utah, it’s going to pass the Senate next week as well, and be signed by the governor.

If it is signed into law, it will be an unprecedented step forward for educational freedom in this country. The media, as well as school choice advocates and critics, will be watching Utah intently to see what happens, and there are some caveats that I think are very important for everyone to keep in mind.

First, dramatic results should not be expected overnight. In other nations that have adopted similar school choice programs (e.g., Chile, Sweden), it has taken five or 10 years for large numbers of new schools to be created, and for the good ones to be weeded out from the bad.
Competition and consumer choice work wonderfully well in education, but their effects are not instantaneous. Part of the reason for that lag is that potential school founders have to be convinced that a newly passed school choice law is on firm legal and political ground, and not likely to be overturned by the courts or repealed by a subsequent legislature. And you can bet this law will be challenged.

Second, the maximum value of Utah’s school vouchers would be $3,000, only about half of what Utah spends per pupil in its public schools. So Bill 148 would still leave private schools at a considerable financial disadvantage compared to their state-run counterparts, and that would inhibit competition between the public and private sectors and retard innovation.

Those caveats aside, this is a momentous day not just for Utah families, but for our entire nation.

What Utah’s legislature has figured out is that school choice is a much better way of fulfilling the promise of public education than is the one-size-fits-all factory school system we inherited from the 19th century.

[TM70]

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