147 replies to this topic

[Rich_T]

... I've yet to read Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, or Hitchens, but I have read the Bible.

I think you'd enjoy reading their recent books.

[folsom500]

Wow, what a no-win topic. You see these debates all over the internet. Someone (in this case, CostCo), who is unusually well-informed for a casual non-believer, takes the lead in producing the Dawkins/Harris/Dennett/Hitchens arguments about science/evidence vs. blind faith. Others then engage the person in useless arguments. Insults start flying.

I've got my own thoughts and beliefs that stand up to logic yet allow for faith. But I sure as heck won't discuss them in an internet forum. Sorry if that sounds snooty, but this is just not the proper venue.

so why are you posting ?

[Rich_T]

so why are you posting ?

To tell you all that it's a no-win topic. I didn't post to share my views.

[bishmasterb]

I completely disagree with the reasoning that religion is somehow an out of bounds conversation, and shouldn't be, or can't be, discussed politely. If one doesn't care to discuss it, DON'T enter threads entitled "Do you believe in God?"

[Rich_T]

I completely disagree with the reasoning that religion is somehow an out of bounds conversation, and shouldn't be, or can't be, discussed politely. If one doesn't care to discuss it, DON'T enter threads entitled "Do you believe in God?"

It's not out-of-bounds. It's just no-win.

And it can be discussed politely - but it rarely is, in an internet forum.

I entered because I was curious to see if this would follow the pattern of other sites. It does.

[folsom500]

To tell you all that it's a no-win topic. I didn't post to share my views.

you just did -- you obviously posted here as it is a topic that you have some interest in ... just not open enough yet to state your own opinions...
Pointless posts are worse than anything in a forum such as this ... and you get the prize today ---
There are no no-win topics except abortion that I have seen. This one and another similar have had a lot of opinions and feelings and view presented- and I do not see any side winning or loosing at all -- just a lot of interesting conversation ...

Cheers
F500

[CostcoLover]

I think you'd enjoy reading their recent books.

Have you read them? Have a copy I can borrow?

[Rich_T]

you just did -- you obviously posted here as it is a topic that you have some interest in ... just not open enough yet to state your own opinions...
Pointless posts are worse than anything in a forum such as this ... and you get the prize today ---
There are no no-win topics except abortion that I have seen. This one and another similar have had a lot of opinions and feelings and view presented- and I do not see any side winning or loosing at all -- just a lot of interesting conversation ...

Cheers
F500

First of all, you're not the boss of me, who decides what posts are allowed. It's not my post which was pointless, but the ones trying to convince the other side that they're right. And it's not that I'm not "open" enough ... it's that I'm sensible.

But I don't disagree with you that there can be interesting conversation around the periphery of the topic, and that's a good thing.

[supermom]

Your statements that:

1. I want to be a Christian (and no, I take no offense)
Sidebar: Is that what you tell your Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Hindu, etc. friends? (still waiting for your answer)

2. That I'm a lapsed Christian (and no, I take no offense)
3. implying that I'm an atheist - (and no, I take no offense)
4. Your dismissal of others religious beliefs
5. Your questioning of why you perceive that other people get "defensive" in your beliefs.
6. Your lack of acknowledgment of other's beliefs
Just goes to show that you see through your religious lens. And quite frankly, do seem (as was already pointed out) as though you're offended when people question your faith/religion
I asked very legitimate questions and continue to ask them of believers - and truth be told, the silence is deafening. Or have you never asked yourself these questions?

1. Which version of the Bible
2. Which translation of the Bible
3. Which denomination of the 33,800 Christian denominations

And here is the essence of why I ask those questions.

http://www.tomatopag...d...st&p=193978

IMO, if you're going to subscribe to a religion and corresponding belief system, at a minimum it would be wise to question the source of the text which one is studying. Or do you not agree?



The book “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why” from Prof. Bart Ehrman can be described as an introduction to New Testament textual criticism for beginners, in which he explains the subject in the context of his own background, relating his journey from being an Evangelical Christian to becoming a world renowned New Testament scholar. Besides D. C. Parker’s “Living Text of the Gospels”, Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” seems to be the only book on textual criticism designed specifically for the non-expert readers.

QUOTE(supermom @ Nov 7 2007, 03:04 PM)
Why are you attacking Christianity? Did you not say that atheists don't do that? That they are happy to llive in the now--for they know they only have one life? Therefore, since you continue to try to discredit chrsitianity I have come to see that in fact you are a lapsed christian. Perhaps angry or bitter? Or perhaps unable to find the real questions in why your faith has been questioned?

1. Oh brother, here we go, any questioning of Christian beliefs is an attack! Quick head to the underground bunkers! Christianity being such an underdog with its mere 2 billion adherents.
So, your not ok with me asking why are you attacking christian beliefs but you think it's ok to put a list of reasons to not like religion up--and you expect people to not ask--Just what is your motivation in doing so? Talk about double standards.2. Atheists don't question Christianity? Hmm, I wouldn't know either way as I'm not an atheist. Though I'd guess some would and some wouldn't.

3. I "discredit" Christianity by asking legitimate questions?
In which way are these questions legitimate? It appears that you like to push buttons--garner your own truth from it and frankly I don't expect to see how your attitude should be expected to be taken positively?
4. Now I'm a "lapsed" Christian? Is that what everyone in the world is? All Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, they're all just lapsed Christians?
Is that what I stated? Boy we can play this game all day: but you are obviously upset, if we are to have a civil conversation; I might as well try to figure out just what angle you are coming from.
5. Haven't you heard? Everyone that's not Christian is just an angry, bitter lapsed Christian.

6. My faith? Unquestioned? I very much like Bish questioned my faith, though at a younger age, and much for many of the same reasons.
So then you are a lapsed Christian--you have heard all the answers before and just choose to re-ask them? Do you do that in earnest appeal to get back to testifying for God--or are you doing it to show your anger?
Frankly, some of your posts seem to target a deep disquiet in yourself. I'm not a therapist-sorry I can't help you.
What you may find interesting is that none of the questions I've asked have even been attempted to be answered by those of "faith". Such as yourself for example.
I have answered them-the best I can. I do not feel however that you are truly showing an interest in this thread for sake of sharing a forum. At best, what I have seen so far from what you have posted is negative in your views of christianity. And that's ok--but why don't you just say you don't like christianity and let others respond as they choose--rather than trying to engage others in conversation afterall, it was you who seems to think that your list of 15 questions was funny?
Hey, maybe I'm wrong--but you were quick to jump on Msgt when he said he believes in God; and now you seem to enjoy mocking scripture.

I simply pointed out the obvious - His statement could apply to any world religion.
No, you simply decided to belittle what he believes in. He doesn't believe in just any religion he chose the one he believes in-because he made that choice. Here's the kicker, if you really were so interested in pointed out that his belief could also be held valid in other religions then you would have stated--well he has a valid belief but--his belief is also shared by other religions.

So by pointing out the obvious inherent contradictions in the 'inerrant' Bible, and by pointing out the numerous version and translations and errors in both version and translations, it's mocking scripture?
Who has decided that the bible is "inerrant"? What does that mean, anyway? And something you may or may not agree with is that most "translations" of the bible may have slightly different wording but for the whole; the message of the bible still stands whole. So, what difference is it?
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the bury-my-head-in-the-sand and accept all I'm spoon fed philosophy so I do question, and do it often.
Great, but that doesn't make you any smarter, more philosophical or holier than what I value as such. And that is because that is what I value. that is the whole gist of this, now isn't it?



1. I want to be a Christian (and no, I take no offense)

QUOTE(supermom @ Nov 6 2007, 04:32 PM)
I think that in reality CostcoLover wants to be Christian--is afraid to committ--so blames history-peoples attitudes, etc. as a cop out for the real questions.


Sidebar: Is that what you tell your Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Hindu, etc. friends? (still waiting for your answer)
That's an attack on me--and I won't answer it.2. That I'm a lapsed Christian (and no, I take no offense)

QUOTE(supermom @ Nov 7 2007, 02:04 PM)
Therefore, since you continue to try to discredit chrsitianity I have come to see that in fact you are a lapsed christian.


3. implying that I'm an atheist - (and no, I take no offense)

QUOTE(supermom @ Nov 7 2007, 02:04 PM)
Why are you attacking Christianity? Did you not say that atheists don't do that? That they are happy to llive in the now--for they know they only have one life?


4. Your dismissal of others religious beliefs

QUOTE(supermom @ Nov 7 2007, 09:14 AM)
Ha--the first church I was introduced to--was Methodist. Yes, I dismissed that church--but I did attend it and therefore; it is my perogative to say it didn't suit me. So what? That's not dismissal, BTW. Geez.
I can't prescribe to a church that insists rejecting the valididty of other peoples lives/llifestyles because it is wrong on the eyes of man.


5. Your questioning of why you perceive that other people get "defensive" in your beliefs.

QUOTE(supermom @ Nov 7 2007, 09:14 AM)
sometimes I wonder why so many people get so defensive when I say I believe in God. Yes, but others have said that people have gotten upset when saying they are athiest. So what? Where does this fit into your point?

6. Your lack of acknowledgment of other's beliefs

QUOTE(supermom @ Nov 7 2007, 09:14 AM)
Yes, I believe that not repenting in your sins will send you to hell, but if your ok with that, then so am I.
That is not a lack of acknowledgment--frankly I am acknowledging their choices. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Just goes to show that you see through your religious lens. And quite frankly, do seem (as was already pointed out) as though you're offended when people question your faith/religion
No, I just didn't get where you were going with this line of questioning. Which is why I originally ignored your responses. I still don't see where you are going.


I asked very legitimate questions and continue to ask them of believers - and truth be told, the silence is deafening. Or have you never asked yourself these questions?

1. Which version of the Bible

How is this a legitimate question--and to whom do you think people on this board should be answering to--when they choose their religious faith? The essence of your questions are pompous and therefore not legitimate.
2. Which translation of the Bible
3. Which denomination of the 33,800 Christian denominations

And here is the essence of why I ask those questions.

[Rich_T]

Have you read them? Have a copy I can borrow?

I've read sections of them online (except Dennett). If you're interested, feel free to do the same.

[dlutz]

Good question dlutz - sort of - "Did people believe in God before there were any holy texts"

I'm guessing that back then people were less sophisticated and more apt to believe in the gods of fire, thunder, rain, etc.

As society became more educated / advanced, those gods gave way to more complex gods.

And I suppose that probably evolved over time to where we are today.

Agreed.

I should have rephrased it as, "do you believe in god, in the 21st century"

Back then people also believed in the world was flat and the sun revolved around us. Of course there are still a few people who still believe that, irregardless of the evidence.

It's an interesting topic for another thread, "how did the god concept evolve in the first place".

[dlutz]

First of all, you're not the boss of me, who decides what posts are allowed. It's not my post which was pointless, but the ones trying to convince the other side that they're right. And it's not that I'm not "open" enough ... it's that I'm sensible.

But I don't disagree with you that there can be interesting conversation around the periphery of the topic, and that's a good thing.

So what's your point?

[bishmasterb]

It's not out-of-bounds. It's just no-win.

And it can be discussed politely - but it rarely is, in an internet forum.

I entered because I was curious to see if this would follow the pattern of other sites. It does.

Conversations aren't zero sum games Rich with losers and winners. Many of us enjoy conversations about topics such as religion, regardless of whether anyone changes their mind or not.

I think this thread has been almost entirely positive.

[BlindFaith]

Yes. I believe in God. Am I 100%sure, yes...being so sure is called Faith. "Faith is not believing that God can, It is knowing that HE WILL"

[BlindFaith]

Often the topic of "God" and "relgion" lead people to argue over whose beliefs are right and whose are wrong. But it is not our place to judge. Share your beliefs and defend them, but do not bash others who disagree. Instead, if you are a christian and here things that astiound you...pray for the ones who dont see like you do. Throwing your beliefs about God onto another will only push them farther away. Live by example. Trust me, Gods light will shine bright enough for even the athiest to see...when and if they are ready. Be an example. Let God use you, dont use God.