182 replies to this topic

[Revolutionist]

I think there is discontent in our community towards those decisions because maybe they...were...the...wrong...decisions! Just a thought.

Ok, I'll bite:
based on what criteria?

[bordercolliefan]

Take CSR for example. The data is nowhere near conclusive that CSR is beneficial for any but a small portion of very disadvantaged communities. In fact, most of it points to little or no effect.

Earlier in this discussion, I cited studies showing that smaller class sizes are beneficial.

[fosterchic]

Earlier in this discussion, I cited studies showing that smaller class sizes are beneficial.

Yeah, what Bordercolliefan said!

Actually, I was just alluding to the obvious- what people are saying on this very thread. Maybe I should have said it as a question? Like this...maybe it was not the right decision? Based upon the unhappy townfolk on this thread? I dunno...

My third grader seems to be doing well so far. Phew! Huge relief. (oh no, another one of those 3rd grader parents huh ) he he

[rightwingknot]

A couple of reasons.

1) People don't tune in until late in the process. And even then, only if it directly affects them. Which means that by the time they start paying attention, 90% of the research and discussion and tough choices have already been made. Then they get upset because the "board just doesn't listen to parents".

2) People are narrowly focused. Which means they only care about that single issue that affect them, and choose not to consider the totality of the complex issue. Then when a decision is made, it is easy to become upset about the single issue and completely ignore the myriad related issues and contributing factors.

3) People distrust government (this is healthy) but at the same time, it causes a disconnect such that when a body such as the school board attempts to negotiate a contract or explain a decision, anything and everything they present is immediately dismissed as falsehood or at the very least spin. That creates nearly impenetrable filters on the public's part. So even though the board has been dispensing information regularly, inviting attendance and participation, and even posting here on these forums, it is not only easy but almost "required" that the information be immediately discarded. Then we're back at "but we need more information".

Very few people are interested in actual honest discussion. We are almost completely agenda driven. Just look at the silliness going on with the Obama and McCain threads here on this board.

We sometimes forget that here in local politics, especially for lowly school boards, that those who run and serve are members of this very community, with jobs here, kids in school, and all want the best education possible. They get involved because they think they can make it better. Sometimes they can. Often times they have to make tough decisions, not because they are right, but because circumstances dictate, or law or contract mandate.
I disagree on the conclusion that the public have done their homework and come to a different conclusion. The public (in general) has only researched the issues as far as how it makes them feel about CSR reduction or library staff cutbacks.

Take CSR for example. The data is nowhere near conclusive that CSR is beneficial for any but a small portion of very disadvantaged communities. In fact, most of it points to little or no effect. So, when times are lean like this, there is only so much "Fat" to cut. Eventually you get down to muscle. And when there is a program that costs much more than is funded, and there is no conclusive evidence that it provides a substantial benefit, it is going to end up on the block.

Does anyone really want to cut it? No, teachers love it, parents think its great. But what else are you going to cut? AP Chemistry?

First off, and I am not sure if it's intentional and I apologize for any misinterpretation, you seem to minimize or at least trivialize parents getting involved late in the game. The fact is this is because they are busy, hard working parents. They have this absurd idea that the people in charge will make good, informed decisions. By the time the issues become known to parents, it is often too late to have an impact. When people distrust government, it is not because it's the nature of the people, it's because of the nature of the governmental entity.

Secondly, for all the research one can find showing that CSR has little or no impact, there as many if not more credible sources/studies showing that it is beneficial. It seems to me if you really want to know what works in a classroom, one should ask a classroom teacher; yet, when teachers speak out, they are roundly criticized as being simply union apologists. I know a great deal of teachers. They are good and decent people, parents, and citizens of this community. And, they do care about the children they teach; many, care more for them than their own self interest.

Lastly, and I think even you would have to agree, it would be far more reassuring to parents to know that at the very least board members need to be proactive in the community. They simply cannot just assume that the public comment session or the occasional phone call or email from constituents is a fair representation of the sentiment of the community. Board members need to visit the schools more, and not just at the perfunctory, celebratory events. When I said communication in an earlier post, I mean to say they need to be approachable. I have tremendous respect for many on the board because they are just that.

So, back on topic, it is time for a change. Mrs. McCormick has served her community, and we thank her for her service. We should do the same for Ms. Stanely and bring in a fresh perspective to the board.

[Revolutionist]

First off, and I am not sure if it's intentional and I apologize for any misinterpretation, you seem to minimize or at least trivialize parents getting involved late in the game. The fact is this is because they are busy, hard working parents. They have this absurd idea that the people in charge will make good, informed decisions. By the time the issues become known to parents, it is often too late to have an impact. When people distrust government, it is not because it's the nature of the people, it's because of the nature of the governmental entity.

Secondly, for all the research one can find showing that CSR has little or no impact, there as many if not more credible sources/studies showing that it is beneficial. It seems to me if you really want to know what works in a classroom, one should ask a classroom teacher; yet, when teachers speak out, they are roundly criticized as being simply union apologists. I know a great deal of teachers. They are good and decent people, parents, and citizens of this community. And, they do care about the children they teach; many, care more for them than their own self interest.

Lastly, and I think even you would have to agree, it would be far more reassuring to parents to know that at the very least board members need to be proactive in the community. They simply cannot just assume that the public comment session or the occasional phone call or email from constituents is a fair representation of the sentiment of the community. Board members need to visit the schools more, and not just at the perfunctory, celebratory events. When I said communication in an earlier post, I mean to say they need to be approachable. I have tremendous respect for many on the board because they are just that.

So, back on topic, it is time for a change. Mrs. McCormick has served her community, and we thank her for her service. We should do the same for Ms. Stanely and bring in a fresh perspective to the board.

I made no value judgments as to why people tune in late, only that they do. And by your response, it seems we both agree on that fact.

Secondly, that is why I said "not conclusive". I did not say there was no benefit, only that the experts don't agree, which in the end makes it higher on the cut list due to its cost and uncertainty of return on investment.

Proactive in the community? You mean like risking hate barrages by posting board information on community forums? And maybe you mean like taking time away from a day job to answer constituent concerns about district business, and tracking down specific answers to whats and whys for anyone who asks? All of which Ms. Stanley has done and continues to do.

I am no board apologist, in fact I have a child in 3rd grade, and I can point to a number of things I would rather have done than cut CSR. But I also know that there is more to the picture. So I accept my responsibility to educate my own child, realizing that school is only 1 tool in the shed, I do what I can to fix what I can (librarian issue), and I ask others to join me in making the school better.

You should rethink your attack strategy though. There are 2 seats open, and only 1 incumbent running. You don't need to tear down Ms Stanley to get your candidate elected. You only need to present a compelling stand-alone case for Ms Reinking. Because I guarantee you there are others in the race that would make you even more unhappy.

[rightwingknot]

Proactive in the community? You mean like risking hate barrages by posting board information on community forums? And maybe you mean like taking time away from a day job to answer constituent concerns about district business, and tracking down specific answers to whats and whys for anyone who asks? All of which Ms. Stanley has done and continues to do.

Ask some teachers you know, how many times have they seen a board member in their school or school function? I know several teachers at different schools. They have yet to see Mrs. Stanley. I think it matters. And yeah, they should take ttime from their day job to do it. Otherwise, they should not have run for the position.

[bordercolliefan]

I made no value judgments as to why people tune in late, only that they do. And by your response, it seems we both agree on that fact.

There's another reason people tune in late: it's the "little boy who cried wolf" effect.

My kids have been in the schools for 5 years now, and we've already had several budget panic drills where we've heard "there will be no library next year!" or "there will be no music!" or whatever. Then, miraculously (and thankfully), the money appears at the eleventh hour and everything is fine.

So this time, when I first heard, "they're going to put 32 kids in the 3rd grade classrooms!," I thought, "Nah... that's just another panic drill, and besides, who would ever put that many 7-year olds in one classroom?!"

I was out of the country all summer, but when I returned, I was actually shocked to find out the CSR cut was for real.

[tessieca]

The only reasonable conclusion is that they (the public) have done their homework and have conlcuded that the decision making process is not in line with their values/wishes or that the transparency isn't as clear as you assert.

Maybe you can't force people to look through the transparent window.

Ask some teachers you know, how many times have they seen a board member in their school or school function? They have yet to see Mrs. Stanley.

You're asking the wrong teachers.

[rightwingknot]

Call me querky, I always have faith in the people, which is back to my earlier point. The people, when offered accurate information, ulitmately make the right decision.We shall see. We shall see.

[fosterchic]

Maybe you can't force people to look through the transparent window.
You're asking the wrong teachers.

Seriously? Do clarify.

[EDF]

I'm saying ADULTS can't spell, etc. Bill and Melinda Gates are trying to improve our public school system. Our country is ranked 34th in Math throughout the world. 34! That is unbelieveable. How can we, at the same time, be getting smarter and stupider?

This is why I am so crazy on this subject. The standards seem higher for kids (I distinctly remember doing multiplication tables in 4th grade - now they must have them mastered at the end of 3rd). I look at what my daugther is learning and it's much more advanced than what I was doing at that age - and I skipped a grade. This is why I think something is wrong. Kid are supposedly learning more, and there is a lot of parent involvement, yet we are not competing with other countries. Obviously, Folsom is in better shape than the lower socioeconomic areas, but I still see the flyers coming home in the Weds folder with glaring errors.

I don't know. I'm just tired of hearing the same old story - the schools need more money. I don't think they do. I think someone needs to come in and clean it up. If the state doesn't do it, maybe we should locally. Let's get a forward-thinking board in there who is willing to stir things up.

I guess I'm just rambling now. I am just feeling so frustrated and disheartened. I feel extremely fortunate for what I have. I grew up in the hood, so I definitely know how much better my family has it compared to what I had growing up. But, as ghetto as my school was - we had a librarian.

I'll tell you the biggest problem in government run public is schools has to do with one thing... and one thing only.... and that is...

THE CALIFORNIA TEACHERS ASSOCIATION and of course it's local chapter in the Folsom Cordova district....

One of the reasons that the school in the Prairie Oaks area started off so good was the principal there knew how to pick her staff...

You have to give the principals and the superintendant of the district the power to "hire and fire" at will... which is just like the "private sector"...

Now... if a teacher gets past the 2 or 3 year mark... they get "stinking tenure"... and that is an outrage unto itself... what other field has this little perk...

It makes it hard to fire a low performing or underperforming teacher....

Get rid of that system... (fat chance) and you'll see a big improvement... I mean it's because of the teachers union that they only have to pass a 10th grade proficiency test... called the CBEST test... and everyone knows that a "teaching" degree in math is not a degree in math... it's a degree in teaching...

It's because of you goo-goo parents that buy into their arguments that they are there for the kids...? give me a stinking break...

Their union is only for the benefit of their members and their pay and benefits... and of course the amount of "minutes" they teach your brat in school....

Can you believe that the discuss your little darlings time in school in "minutes"...?

oh and PS... don't blame Teresa Stanley for the ills of the board... she's probably been there so long and has listen to so many stinking whiney complaints from little momies and daddies that I wonder why in the hell she even wants to be on the board...

Awesome Rant Over... and I do believe it was a good one....

Now back to my morning cup of joe...

Waiting for some "A" game on this issue....

[Parizienne]

You're selling yourself short, Stacycam. The board is supposed to be made up of community members who represent the interests of the education of people in the community.

First of all, I think you're far from inarticulate or "not smart enough". If you're worried about qualifications, you don't even need a degree to serve on the board. Parents make great board members and they merely need to understand kids and schools and be willing to represent ALL the people in the community.

I say, next time around -- go for it.


Pari.

I would love to run for school board (or Folsom planning commission, because they suck, too), but I am not smart/educated enough or articulate enough. If I thought I had the abilities, I would be all over it. They'd hate me, though.

[Parizienne]

Arrrrgghhh! EDF.... I have to correct this misconception of yours. I'm not going to argue the evil union thing. We've already been though that.

BUT -- The CBEST is a test for substitute teachers or for those on emergency credentials who are completing their credentialing programs.

To be fully credentialed, you need to complete a fifth year of college plus a year of student teaching or an internship program AND one of the following:

For elementary teachers - a major in liberal studies or a multidisciplinary course of study (and no cracks about liberal politics... in this case "liberal" refers to a broad range of subjects like math, literature, art, music, history, science.. because elem. teachers teach all subjects throughout the day) OR if you majored in something else, completion of a very difficult subject matter test. The one I took was the MSAT. It tested me on Kindergarten through grade 12 content in math, science, history, literature, grammar, PE, art, and a separate section on child development. There was a constructed response section ( essays) that required me to write 18 essays in one sitting. Multiple subject teachers actually can teach in middle and high schools if they are teaching more than one subject throughout the day.


For secondary teachers, you need to have majored in the area you'd like teach ( e.g. math majors can teach math, English majors can teach English, etc). OR you could take a difficult subject matter test. The exam options work for many second-career teachers like me. I took the CSET. It was a three-part test. It took an entire Saturday from 8 AM to around 7PM to complete. There were three or four essays per section in addition to the multiple choice components. For my history credential, I had to know world history from prehistoric times to about the 1980s. U.S. history from the 1400s to the 1980s. California history, and civics, government and economics. I didn't know that I could have taken each individual section on separate days. So when I got there and they found out I was doing all three on the same day, they were stunned. I was a little overwhelmed, but I passed on the first try. And yeah, I'm damn proud of it. It wasn't an easy battery of tests. Single-subject teachers can teach in elementary schools if they only teach one subject all day like p.e. or art. Some elementary schools employ social studies and science teachers who teach those subjects exclusively to various K-6 grades only during the day.


And now, in addition to these tests or majors, all teachers must also pass the RICA, which confirms they know how to teach reading. In most districts, including FCUSD all teachers must now possess a CLAD authorization (which can be accomplished by taking classes and/or taking an exam) -- so they can teach kids who are still learning English. ALL of these tests are paid for by the teacher/teacher candidate. The testing companies make a killing on these as well as on the retakes which I think is a travesty, but there ya go. They should allow testing with a variety of testing companies' tests so one business doesn't get all thr profit from tests that are required by state law. In other words at something like $150 to $200 a pop, they're raking in the money from these teachers. But that's another issue for another day. I just wanted people to know that the state and districts aren't covering these costs, so taxpayers aren't impacted.

So please do not trivialize the mandated requisites for ALL teachers in this state to be credentialed. We are not merely glorified and aged tenth graders.

As for those on Emergencies, unless they're career subs, they can't skate with an emergency indefinitely. If you're still teaching with one after, I think it's two years, they won't renew it because you get need to a regular credential. We don't have many regular classroom teachers on emergencies, if any, in this district.


About those minutes -- that comes from the state. It's the state that requires a specific number of instructional minutes per day and per year. If we're talking minutes, it's because we want to make sure we're in compliance. And it's not about teaching the minimum. It's about making sure we have met the requirement in various subject areas. I think the framework says we should be teaching something like 100 minutes a day in reading instruction. Obviously, that all won't occur during 20 minute reading time. It's got to be integrated into other areas. So, there ya go. I personally don't count minutes because I am confident that I'm within the framework. But others need to collaborate with others so they can make sure that among all who teach a particular group of kids that they're on the same page, so to speak, and that the minutes are covered so no disservice is done to the students due to lack of communication among the teaching team.


Thanks!

Pari

Get rid of that system... (fat chance) and you'll see a big improvement... I mean it's because of the teachers union that they only have to pass a 10th grade proficiency test... called the CBEST test... and everyone knows that a "teaching" degree in math is not a degree in math... it's a degree in teaching...

Can you believe that the discuss your little darlings time in school in "minutes"...?



Waiting for some "A" game on this issue....

[stacycam]

You're selling yourself short, Stacycam. The board is supposed to be made up of community members who represent the interests of the education of people in the community.

First of all, I think you're far from inarticulate or "not smart enough". If you're worried about qualifications, you don't even need a degree to serve on the board. Parents make great board members and they merely need to understand kids and schools and be willing to represent ALL the people in the community.

I say, next time around -- go for it.
Pari.

Thanks. That's nice of you to say. I do have a degree, and I feel that I am relatively intelligent, but I could never keep up with all the gobbley-gook lawyer-type talk. I'm not good at using big words and spinning things a certain way. Whenever I get into a discussion with a lawyer, I always lose because I get flustered and can't back up my opinions. Things never sound very good coming out of my mouth. Thanks for your vote of confidence.

It's funny because my I've been talking to my parents about all the school stuff, and my dad keeps smirking at me. He told me, "I've always wondered how long it would take you to get into politics." (insert giggle emoticon - since there isn't one). I'm definitely not there yet!

Also, I HATE to write. I purposely chose a degree in Economics, so I could avoid writing. Although, working as an HR analyst for many years, I wrote much more than I ever thought I would! Blech!

[Parizienne]

HR and economics? I think you'd do fine on the board! I was in HR, too. I know what you mean.

Since by its nature, the school board is supposed to be made up of community members, that you and the others would work as a team to figure out the legalese and to make responses in your good time. There's nothing wrong with telling people, "I'll take that under advisement and get back to you." And then really do get back to them once you've got your bearings. Plus, you'd probably get better at it with experience.

Pari

Thanks. That's nice of you to say. I do have a degree, and I feel that I am relatively intelligent, but I could never keep up with all the gobbley-gook lawyer-type talk. I'm not good at using big words and spinning things a certain way. Whenever I get into a discussion with a lawyer, I always lose because I get flustered and can't back up my opinions. Things never sound very good coming out of my mouth. Thanks for your vote of confidence.

It's funny because my I've been talking to my parents about all the school stuff, and my dad keeps smirking at me. He told me, "I've always wondered how long it would take you to get into politics." (insert giggle emoticon - since there isn't one). I'm definitely not there yet!

Also, I HATE to write. I purposely chose a degree in Economics, so I could avoid writing. Although, working as an HR analyst for many years, I wrote much more than I ever thought I would! Blech!