187 replies to this topic

[Young Curmudgeon]

Reading a piece of music doesn't always equal education. Education can come from experience as well, and thats what these classes, relationships, and music trips well go on provide us for own and for the future.

I agree with your statement about an exit exam type of thing, but that's like an SAT or STAR test that you have to do, but for music...it proves nothing. It seems like youre really stuck on kids being able to read music, so to clarify...you can still be talented as all heck and be lost looking at a page of black dots. Thanks.

-PJ

PJ, are you really going to debate that being able to read music is integral to music education? If this were a lit class, you wouldn't debate that being able to read the written word was less important than writing. Reading goes hand in hand with writing. It's the same for a musician.

I'm right with you on experience, but you don't need to go on a trip to experience music in a group setting. You don't even need an audience. You certainly don't need to receive some type of recognition for it. To quote Sting's five-word award exceptance speech, "Music is its own reward."

I was speaking with a leading member of the MENC yesterday. I mentioned the problem and he compared two high schools in Colorado to make a point. First, there is Lassiter, which won the national marching championship in Indianpolis a few years ago. They have a budget in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. What makes them special, he said, is they also have a nationally recognized concert band that plays all year round. There's a balance the instructor knows how to achieve. Last spring he visited another high school. He said they only had one concert the entire spring and it was right before competitions. They were only playing three or four pieces for three months. He rightly pointed out a math class wouldn't spend three months on the same subject -- the students wouldn't learn anything. That's what he considered a total lack of balance.

If these boosters are excited about the music program, they should give not because there are plaques on the wall. They should give because their children are receiving an excellent fundamental music education AS WELL AS an great musical experience. If there is an over-emphasis on winning awards -- and only the children and their parents would know -- then there is something very, very wrong with the program.

[PJ James]

PJ, are you really going to debate that being able to read music is integral to music education? If this were a lit class, you wouldn't debate that being able to read the written word was less important than writing. Reading goes hand in hand with writing. It's the same for a musician.

I'm right with you on experience, but you don't need to go on a trip to experience music in a group setting. You don't even need an audience. You certainly don't need to receive some type of recognition for it. To quote Sting's five-word award exceptance speech, "Music is its own reward."

I was speaking with a leading member of the MENC yesterday. I mentioned the problem and he compared two high schools in Colorado to make a point. First, there is Lassiter, which won the national marching championship in Indianpolis a few years ago. They have a budget in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. What makes them special, he said, is they also have a nationally recognized concert band that plays all year round. There's a balance the instructor knows how to achieve. Last spring he visited another high school. He said they only had one concert the entire spring and it was right before competitions. They were only playing three or four pieces for three months. He rightly pointed out a math class wouldn't spend three months on the same subject -- the students wouldn't learn anything. That's what he considered a total lack of balance.

If these boosters are excited about the music program, they should give not because there are plaques on the wall. They should give because their children are receiving an excellent fundamental music education AS WELL AS an great musical experience. If there is an over-emphasis on winning awards -- and only the children and their parents would know -- then there is something very, very wrong with the program.

Obviously you do not know this program or the director at all. He rarely picks up the trophies when we attended a festival. It is merely for experience. And obviously you havent been casted in a band where you have the privledge of playing live or with a audience of 1 to 2 thousand. If you had experienced that, you would know the rush and sensation you get from it. Exposure plays a big roll in how you excel.

When I was talking about reading music, I didn't mean that it was worthless. I intend on being a studio musician where my primary job is to read charts quicker then you can say lawsuit. I know its a big part of being a great player, but experience counts for more then knowledge. If you're a musician, get out and play a little more....you'll see.

-PJ

[Young Curmudgeon]

Obviously you do not know this program or the director at all. He rarely picks up the trophies when we attended a festival. It is merely for experience. And obviously you havent been casted in a band where you have the privledge of playing live or with a audience of 1 to 2 thousand. If you had experienced that, you would know the rush and sensation you get from it. Exposure plays a big roll in how you excel.

When I was talking about reading music, I didn't mean that it was worthless. I intend on being a studio musician where my primary job is to read charts quicker then you can say lawsuit. I know its a big part of being a great player, but experience counts for more then knowledge. If you're a musician, get out and play a little more....you'll see.

-PJ

You're right, PJ, I don't know the director, and my comments were directed at a mindset, not people or your program. If Folsom High understands this balance, good for them (and you). However, if I hear reference to Folsom's "national award winning band" again, I think I'll stab myself with a drum stick.

As former session drummer who has spent a great deal of time in studios and in front of a live audience, I can tell you my traveling experiences as a high school student musician had little to no impact on me. What did serve me well was the fundamentals passed on to me by an excellent music instructor. I knew how to read, understood how to interpret and could interact with other musicians and producers because I spoke their language.

Not everyone is meant to be a professional, and I understand public music programs should also provide the experiential. However, I still contend that does not mean you have to load the buses and travel to other destinations to provide that.

[ducky]

Well said, PJ James. My children had similar experiences in the music program. Knowing there are young people like you soon to be graduating from FHS gives me hope for the future.

It sickens me that people who have dedicated so much of their time, weekends, time away from work, and are having to defend themselves against such a petty claim. I truly hope this is not the end of the program.

The "Folsom Telegraph" article said something how they had contacted other parents who confirmed Can't-sell-it's [sic] claim. Boy did they contact the wrong parents. Did Ms. Kinsella give them a list?

[benning]

However, if I hear reference to Folsom's "national award winning band" again, I think I'll stab myself with a drum stick.

The reason you keep hearing it called that is because that's what our society has decided is a mark of legitimacy. It's a 'sound bite' that people can relate to. The awards don't make them good...working hard, being exposed and coached on a variety of challenging music, listening well and developing an ear, the social benefits of being involved....that is what makes them good.

People just don't believe a parent when they say...come and hear Johnny (or PJ, or Matt), they're really good! So we must continue to say award winning...unless someone has something better. Any marketing types out there?

[Flowerlady1]

  My children had similar experiences in the music program.  Knowing there are young people like you soon to be graduating from FHS gives me hope for the future.
It sickens me that people who have dedicated so much of their time, weekends, time away from work,  and are having to defend themselves against such a petty claim.  I truly hope this is not the end of the program.
The "Folsom Telegraph" article said something how they had contacted other parents who confirmed Can't-sell-it's [sic] claim.  Boy did they contact the wrong parents.  Did Ms. Kinsella give them a list?

I have to admit, as a parent of 2 students who have gone thru' the music program at FHS, I am outraged at the implications that Mr. Gaesser has in anyway acted improperly in regards to the funds used for the kids for travel. We paid our students' dues year after year. I paid for 4 years of travel and competion, including a trip to Europe two years ago. My kid went, not me, and I was glad for the opportunity she had to go, sing and compete with world-wide musicians. Do you have any idea how much the regular competitions cost-- just to get the kids in? They have high-faluting judges who don't do this for fun (with just a very few exceptions) and they cost high-faluting bucks. And the Jazz choir, the Jazz Band continue to take firsts and seconds in almost everything they enter because of the dedication and hard work of the director. And those fees don't even include the buses, and hotels for overnight stays. THINK!!!

Curt is in this for the kids, not the money, and someone who would name him in a lawsuit -- or even threaten him with one--has to be looking only for the big bucks, not for some " I gotta fix the system for the world to be a better place". I was also a teacher for 20 years, and FRANKLY you don't get paid enough to do this kind of hassle unless you really love the music and the kids. He has to love it. He takes kids who have potential and turns them into award-winning musicians. THAT IS A REALLY BIG DEAL TO THOSE KIDS. And that's what the music program is REALLY all about, right? And by the way, some of you, people CAN learn music from repetition and practice. The Jazz Choir does not have just a "few songs" they sing for each competition. They add to the repetoire on a regular--and often with very little time -- basis, and they do a fabulous job. Who is ultimately responsible for that job????? Curt Gaesser. Even if he got a cut of the Boosters budget, it is well worth it!!! He turns out MUSICIANS, kids who do more with their lives, whether it's in the field of music or not, because they have COMPETED. On a solid playing field of musicians. And have come up with awards again and again.

I personally, even after funnelling thousands of $$ into the music program myself over the last 4 years, would never dream of getting in on the "fun" of a class-action lawsuit. I think the woman in question, and the detractors of the music program need to take a serious look at their own motives, and maybe a look at the ethics of the ones who are leading this charge against Folsom Music.

[Flowerlady1]

As someone with 15 years of experience as a player and educator in public music education (state individual award winner, member of national award winning groups, section instructor, one time music major), I see too many groups traveling and not enough emphasis on real education.
I'll end on a real experience: two summers ago I was temporarily contracted to help a drumline north of Sacramento that had won a few awards in the years previous to my arrival. I anticipated my help would only be needed as a tertiary response. As I passed out one draft of a very common drum break, the 22 drummers in the line looked at me as if I had just handed them a foreign language. They had always learned through mimic and repetition. Only two of them had the first clue how to work through the notes on the page. All 22 left without asking me to teach them how to properly read it. When I informed the director, he told me -- in no uncertain terms -- he was only concerned they'd be able to perform on the field, that there was no time to teach all those drummers the essentials they had somehow missed in their previous experience in that system.


What a horribly sad commentary on your narrow view of music and musicians.
It's probably just as well you aren't anywhere near a music program for any age. As a musician, and singer for more years than I can count, and a reader of music--ok, not great--you must not have had any director or teacher hand you a cd or tape with the music and told you to learn the part --which you have to pick out of a really crappy recording and figure out how the notes on the page actually correspond with what's being actually played or sung. And how many singers or horn players, or whatevers, know how to plunk out the parts on a piano or on the instrument without hearing what it's supposed to sound like first? And drummers? It's all counting. That can only be learned over time....and that's what this music program is all about: LEARNING. And if they can win some awards and trophies and accolades along the way -- MORE POWER TO THEM!!!!!
And by the way, there are scores of musicians who really still don't know how to actually read music. And I'm not talking the pop trash.

[PJ James]

As someone with 15 years of experience as a player and educator in public music education (state individual award winner, member of national award winning groups, section instructor, one time music major), I see too many groups traveling and not enough emphasis on real education.
I'll end on a real experience: two summers ago I was temporarily contracted to help a drumline north of Sacramento that had won a few awards in the years previous to my arrival. I anticipated my help would only be needed as a tertiary response. As I passed out one draft of a very common drum break, the 22 drummers in the line looked at me as if I had just handed them a foreign language. They had always learned through mimic and repetition. Only two of them had the first clue how to work through the notes on the page. All 22 left without asking me to teach them how to properly read it. When I informed the director, he told me -- in no uncertain terms -- he was only concerned they'd be able to perform on the field, that there was no time to teach all those drummers the essentials they had somehow missed in their previous experience in that system.
What a horribly sad commentary on your narrow view of music and musicians.
It's probably just as well you aren't anywhere near a music program for any age.  As a musician, and singer for more years than I can count, and a reader of music--ok, not great--you must not have had any director or teacher hand you a cd or tape with the music and told you to learn the part --which you have to pick out of a really crappy recording and figure out how the notes on the page actually correspond with what's being actually played or sung.  And how many singers  or horn players, or whatevers, know how to plunk out the parts on a piano or on the instrument without hearing what it's supposed to sound like first?  And drummers?  It's all counting.  That can only be learned over time....and that's what this music program is all about:  LEARNING.  And if they can win some awards and trophies and accolades along the way -- MORE POWER TO THEM!!!!!
And by the way, there are scores of musicians who really still don't know how to actually read music.  And I'm not talking the pop trash.

YES!!!!!! Well said Flowerlady1!!!

-PJ

[FolsomJunior00]

An interesting thought for all of you (unless its been brought up already, i didnt read the first 8 pages)

For FHS football, players are REQUIRED to do various activities to raise money for the program. Once such activity is to sell advertising space on the team posters to business around the community. If one player does not sell enough advertisement space in a certain period of time, the player is FORCED to do updowns (and I mean a lot of updowns) as a PUNISHMENT FOR FAILURE TO RAISE MONEY FOR THE PROGRAM. At the same token, a player MUST sell a certain amount of T-Shirts in a certain amount of time, or the whole team will be PUNISHED for not doing it.

I dont see the head of the music department at FHS making their bands do push-ups as a punishment before they practice, do you?

And yet, they are the ones getting punished, and we let this go on in football?

I dont have a problem with the way they raise money in football, but if you are going to attack an organizations way to raise money, why not go after the ones that seem the least fair?

Sorry that you have to pay to support your kids love for music. Nothing is free anymore...so move on.

[uberman]

That may be the best response i've read yet.

[PJ James]

PJ, are you really going to debate that being able to read music is integral to music education? If this were a lit class, you wouldn't debate that being able to read the written word was less important than writing. Reading goes hand in hand with writing. It's the same for a musician.

I'm right with you on experience, but you don't need to go on a trip to experience music in a group setting. You don't even need an audience. You certainly don't need to receive some type of recognition for it. To quote Sting's five-word award exceptance speech, "Music is its own reward."

I was speaking with a leading member of the MENC yesterday. I mentioned the problem and he compared two high schools in Colorado to make a point. First, there is Lassiter, which won the national marching championship in Indianpolis a few years ago. They have a budget in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. What makes them special, he said, is they also have a nationally recognized concert band that plays all year round. There's a balance the instructor knows how to achieve. Last spring he visited another high school. He said they only had one concert the entire spring and it was right before competitions. They were only playing three or four pieces for three months. He rightly pointed out a math class wouldn't spend three months on the same subject -- the students wouldn't learn anything. That's what he considered a total lack of balance.

If these boosters are excited about the music program, they should give not because there are plaques on the wall. They should give because their children are receiving an excellent fundamental music education AS WELL AS an great musical experience. If there is an over-emphasis on winning awards -- and only the children and their parents would know -- then there is something very, very wrong with the program.

If you're not trying to single people or "some such music program" out...then whats the deal with all of what you're saying? You obviously have a problem with the fact that we attened alot of festivals and require funds to transport us to and from. If you live in Folsom, buy a CD from one of the Jazz Bands...we do more then three songs a year...and it isnt math or english lit...its music class. Which in my opinion and I'm sure everyone else's, is competely different then your petty sort of...example like relations to a mandatory math or english class.

-PJ

[Chad Vander Veen]

Apparently we have not yet mocked this cruel woman out of her lawsuit. Pick up the pace, people!

[Flowerlady1]

PJ, are you really going to debate that being able to read music is integral to music education? If this were a lit class, you wouldn't debate that being able to read the written word was less important than writing. Reading goes hand in hand with writing. It's the same for a musician.

I'm right with you on experience, but you don't need to go on a trip to experience music in a group setting. You don't even need an audience. You certainly don't need to receive some type of recognition for it. To quote Sting's five-word award exceptance speech, "Music is its own reward."

I was speaking with a leading member of the MENC yesterday. I mentioned the problem and he compared two high schools in Colorado to make a point. First, there is Lassiter, which won the national marching championship in Indianpolis a few years ago. They have a budget in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. What makes them special, he said, is they also have a nationally recognized concert band that plays all year round. There's a balance the instructor knows how to achieve. Last spring he visited another high school. He said they only had one concert the entire spring and it was right before competitions. They were only playing three or four pieces for three months. He rightly pointed out a math class wouldn't spend three months on the same subject -- the students wouldn't learn anything. That's what he considered a total lack of balance.

If these boosters are excited about the music program, they should give not because there are plaques on the wall. They should give because their children are receiving an excellent fundamental music education AS WELL AS an great musical experience. If there is an over-emphasis on winning awards -- and only the children and their parents would know -- then there is something very, very wrong with the program.

You really are a serious curmudgeon. How very sad. The way you start out, it sounds liike you think the award-winning KIDS need to blow their talent in the shower or sealed up in their cars with the radio blasting so no one else can hear---OR APPRECIATE. Folsom Jazz choirs and bands compare with your "Lassiter school program" that wins awards, are nationally recognized, and they don't spend three months learning 3 or 4 pieces of music. Have you even been to a concert? Any concert? Do you even have an ear for it? There's a big difference between the second school you described and Folsom. Have you heard the CDs even? For these kids to receive recognition for their hard work--and this IS hard work--is amazing and fabulous, especially in this day of budget cut-backs and program eliminations. These MUSICIANS, these kids, are getting the accolades they deserve. By the way, I have attended several concerts, and a couple of competitions over the 4 years my kids have competed. I have near perfect pitch. And the performances by the jazz bands and choirs were bang-on every time. They might not think so--such is the way of being the performer--but as someone who has suffered through many colorless, flat and grating performances by bands, singing groups and soloists, these groups and nothing but colorless, flat or grating. The hard work shows in the PROFESSIONAL SOUND and STYLE these groups of kids have when they play.
By the way, this is a music CLASS. A PERFORMANCE class. Keep that in mind. That means they are there to work toward PERFORMANCE, not the basics. The basics come from private music lessons at home or in a studio. They have to come to these classes with a certain amount of talent or they don't get in. The Jazz bands and choirs are AUDITION ONLY. No stray bloke off the street--or school sidewalk--can just walk in to one of these classes and announce they're gonna be a jazz star, and everybody look out. They have to face a director with an ear for pitch, sound, vocal quality, and a certain stage presence necessary for PERFORMANCE. If you want to sing or play for these classes/groups you better already have something to bring to the stage.
And just a note: MUSIC IS NOT LIT OR MATH. Honestly, do you not understand the true nature of music? And name-dropping some guy from MENC is hardly an accolade to you. Has he been to a Folsom Jazz concert? Is he familiar with the awards? The CDs? The music program? The director? And just what "problem" did you discuss? The threat of a lawsuit from a woman who's looking to deep pocket the school district during tight budget times because she found a way to work the system to her advantage? or was it maybe the FACT that Folsom has an award-winning program and some people just can't stand that there are winner and losers, and the Folsom Jazz Kids are WINNERS?
The Boosters are there to provide support and instruments for the program. That's what they do. Instruments are expensive. There is no such thing as a cheap band or orchestra instrument, or sound system, or any of the other things attached to keeping music in the schools.

COME ON! IT'S MUSIC!! IT'S GREAT!! AND IT WINS AWARDS!! ACCOLADES TO THE KIDS!!!!!!!!!

[Chad Vander Veen]

Flowerlady1,

just a tip...paragraphs and spacing really are cool things. Consider them next time you post.

[ducky]

Flowerlady,

Even with the lack of paragraphs your description of the music department is worth the read if you really want to know what the program is like.

Young Curmudgeon, I too was saddened to hear you say the awards aren't worth anything, knowing how proud my children were to be a part of the program. You didn't see how hard they practiced, so I guess you wouldn't know.

It has always been my thought that the busier your children are in their teenage years the less chance they have to get into trouble. Also, children in the music program seem to care about their grades and so they are associating with peers who care about academics as well. If this lawsuit takes this program away, that will be one less productive avenue for students to spend their time.

To say we should all calm down because this lawsuit won't be the end of the music program is misleading - at best. If the boosters aren't allowed to collect dues, donations, whatever you want to call it, the music program will be drastically cut the way the school budgets are these days. What is the use of a marching band, choir, jazz band that never performs?

Is this a dispute because Ms. Kinsella thinks instead of purchasing equipment the booster club "donation requests" should have been lowered? I haven't heard any specific or persuasive examples that the money wasn't well spent.


It makes me angry to think that all the times I worked the firewords booths, donated to the crab feed silent auctions, donated my dues to the booster club that Ms. Kinsella and others like her wanted a free ride when they know that program wouldn't exist but for these dedicated volunteers.