125 replies to this topic

[Sibley Resident]

Sorry this is so long, but this is a subject I’m very passionate about and always have a lot to say regarding it.

From observing the traffic patterns in our neighborhood, these are my thoughts on why it is happening. A significant amount of this traffic in the evening commute (this is the time of day we usually see bumper to bumper) is happening from three significant points. These are not the only reasons, but the most significant.

First is Prairie City road (this would include the traffic from Iron Point and hwy 50). How the light is designed at Prairie City and Blue Ravine does not encourage these people to use Blue Ravine to Folsom Blvd. There is one left hand turn pocket and two lanes that go straight, heading for us. When they come from that direction they generally cannot get into the turn lane because of the backed up traffic that is going straight, so when the light turns green and the traffic starts to clear out, they don’t want to then get into the turn lane and wait for another light. They just want to go, so they do, right for us. I don’t think I can really blame them for that. When they get to Glenn, a significant amount of them continue going straight vrs making the left on Glenn to Folsom Blvd. I’m really not sure why, I can only assume that it is a straight line mentality and that they are going to go as far as they can in that same direction before turning, even though coming out from Sibley onto Natoma is very dangerous (this is not the only reason but one of the reasons they hit Persifer to Reading to use the 4 way stop at Reading and Natoma), they choose to do so. I have also watched people come down on Glenn, and instead of continuing down Glenn to Folsom Blvd they make the right on Sibley to Natoma to Folsom Blvd. I don’t understand this either, but I’ve watched them do this as I follow them when I use to come home that way.

Second would be Lembi. A significant amount of traffic is pulling off of Riley onto Lembi to access Sibley to Natoma instead of getting stuck in the bottle neck at Riley and Natoma. I’m not sure why these same people do not turn off on Blue Ravine or Glenn before even getting to Lembi, but this is a significant influx of traffic from there and is hitting another residential street, Lembi.

Third would be Bidwell, this is the same theory as Lembi. What confuses me about this one is when they come down Bidwell, instead of going straight for Folsom Blvd again like Glenn, they too turn on Sibley to Natoma. I stand in front of my home and watch them make the right hand turn off of Bidwell, drive by my house and then make a left on Natoma. Believe me, it drives me insane trying to figure that one out.

This use to happen only at peek hours (never bumper to bumper, all speeders) and the neighborhood was fairly quite during off commute hours and on weekends. However, in the last few years the neighborhood was seeing increases, then when the Dam closed and it increased more, and then when the City put the well deserved fixes in the other section of the Historic District, it increased more. We now have a fairly constant flow of speeders all day, other than commute hours when it is bumper to bumper. During the time that it is bumper to bumper is when they are trying to escape and they divert off into the rest of our neighborhood, hitting all of us. Sibley, Lembi, Persifer and Reading are hit all day. Just from my personal observations Decatur and Wool are mostly through commute hours, but I could be wrong about that.

This traffic pattern is also now in both directions even when there is no traffic on Folsom Blvd like on Saturday and Sundays, I can only assume out of habit because this is what they drive during the week. The section of Sibley between Lembi and Bidwell is the catalyst (not sure if this is the right word) for our problems. It is the tunnel that everyone is trying to get to and from. No matter what end they go in, at Lembi or at Bidwell they have come from, all of the neighborhood streets on that side and spread out like Wild Fire on the other side, effecting every street in both neighborhoods on each end.

That is what I have observed and my opinion on it. Since the cut through traffic wont stay out simply by asking them to, as the city has or out of respect for us and our neighborhood, then we are asking the city to encourage them to stay out by implementing significant changes that will encourage them to do so or force them to, by shutting down the catalyst.

I rarely use Sibley anymore even though I live on it. I can’t stand waiting in line, feet from my home and just not being able to get there, or sitting behind someone who gets tired of waiting and I watch them drive over my yard. I’m sure I have had a few mini strokes over all of this. I use Folsom Blvd and Riley to Bidwell or to Natoma to my home on Sibley depending on the time of day. I would also agree that the traffic on our arterial system is not bad compared Sunrise, Watt, Howe, Downtown. I have to wonder when the last time people have been down those roads. Or in San Francisco where it can take up to an hour to cross a bridge. The traffic we have on our arterial system is nothing compared to those. However, having the traffic here to this degree, is something people just arn't use to.

Thank you for being so considerate of us.

[Orangetj]

Just a note concerning motivation for people to cut through rather than go down Blue Ravine or Glenn - traffic on Folsom Blvd between Blue Ravine and Natoma is very slow moving during the evening commute hours. I don't know if it's due to signal timing or what, but it just creeps along. Every Wednesday evening I travel from work to Granite Bay for a family dinner and it often takes 20-30 minutes to get from Blue Ravine to the other side of the Natoma Crossing. Out of principle, I don't cut down Sibley (even though I live along this street), so I sit in that traffic. I think most commuters really couldn't care less about the neighborhood they're driving through and they care an awful lot about getting home 15 minutes earlier.

[bordercolliefan]

BillsFan -- Let's remember that some people (such as myself) travel on Sibley for legitimate reasons to try to reach destinations within the historic district, such as my children's preschool and our church. (Indeed, there is a large child care center located right on Sibley-- though this isn't the one my children attend). It is not accurate to characterize all the traffic on Sibley as "cut-through" traffic.

Further, I will note that I travel on Sibley nearly every day at 8 am and at noon. One would think that 8 am would be prime commuting time. However, I have never seen any appreciable back-up on Sibley -- let alone the "bumper to bumper" traffic that's been described here.

I trust Sibley Resident (you seem like a very nice person!) that the back-up is worse at the 5 pm rush hour... I'm not sure exactly why this is the case (though I will say the traffic seems bad all over Folsom at that time)... I continue to think the city could do some things to discourage commuter traffic without completely closing down Sibley.

[tony]

Sibley: I agree completely with your observations about the wheres and whys of the cut through traffic, with one minor exception: in answer to your question of why people turn off of Bidwell onto Sibley to get to Folsom Blvd., they do so because when teh traffic on Folsom is backed up to Glenn and beyond, it can be very difficult to take a right turn onto Folsom Blvd. at Bidwell (another traffic etiquette issue!), whereas at Natoma, the right turn on red is very easy during the SB Folsom left turn phase (which is very long), and if not, eventually you get a green light. The proposed signal at Bidwell and Folsom would somewhat lessen the attraction of this movement (regardless of the other impacts of that installation).

The other observation that I find very intriguibng is the encouragement for people to stay on NB Sibley after crossing Blue Ravine. I agree with you that the left turn is less attractive than going straight and, having worked at that corner for 7 years, can tell you that many, many people also avoid the left turn back-up by turning left into the UC Davis Med Center and cutting through the parking lots (complete with large speed bumps) to get to Turn Pike Dr. This is mostly Natoma Station residents trying to avoid Blue Ravine all together, but I've seen people do it to get onto Blue Ravine WB as well. Boggles the mind! I have not previously heard your suggestion to make a double left turn and eliminate one of the through lanes. In the current configuration of Sbiley, that certainly makes sense, especially because of the merging issue Sibley reduces to two lanes. Of course, the city is nearly done with planning for widening that stretch of Sibley, which then changes everything. (Incidentally, one of the bizarre anomolies of the Traffic Safety Committee is that city street "improvement" projects, such as the Sibley widening and the Sibley-Glenn signal installation, do not go through the committee.) One thing that always amazes me about this stretch is how much NB traffic there is in the morning commute. It's almost heavier than the afternoon, but doesn't seem to go all the way to the HD.

Finally, is it me, or does it seem like traffic has actually lessened on Sibley over the past several weeks? I rode down Sibley twice this week at 5:45 PM (I realize that's a little beyond the peak) and the first time there were three cars at teh Sibley-Natoma intersection, and the second time there were none at all. I know the signal at Natoma and Folsom has been re-timed to improve NB flow in the afternoon I wonder if that has encouraged some people to use Blue Ravine or Glenn?

Finally (really) there is a rarely used, and pretty good alternative route from the Prairie City-Blue Ravine intersection to Folsom and Glenn using Automall Dr (name?), Parkshore and Coolidge. No residential streets. No traffic until you get to Glenn and Folsom.

[tony]

BTW Sibley, no offense taken. I think you know that I am sympathetic to your situation, but that we disagree on the solutions (not as much as you think, though). And while I am certainly focused on bike and ped safety issues, the primary reason for that is that I believe that the things it takes to make a neighborhood that is truly safe for bikes and pedestrians ultimately make it a desirable neighborhood in which to live.

[Sibley Resident]

BorderCollie, yes it is generally only in evening commute that there is bumper to bumper. However, periodically it is during other times, such as in the afternoon, when the schools get out you can sometimes find it backed up and even sometimes on the weekends. This really drives us nuts on the weekends. During the other hours you generally can not even count to two before a car goes speeding by. Cut-through traffic to me would be defined as a person trying to get from Point A to Point B using the Historic District streets when the location they are coming from or going to is not within the Historic District.

Here is a picture of what our neighborhood looks like on a daily basis during the evening commute looking down Sibley from Natoma.

[Sibley Resident]

Tony, even though Sibley will be widened between Blue Ravine and Glenn, I believe the city needs to take a hard look at the Prairie City/Sibley/Blue Ravine intersection. Even when Sibley is widened to 4 lanes to Glenn, Glenn still cannot handle all of that traffic itself and they will continue on, heading for us. A significant portion of the traffic should be encouraged to use Blue Ravine and the remainder encouraged to use Glenn, how things stand, it does not. I would also add that if both of these intersections are not changed or done correctly, (meaning control over through traffic separate from turning on the Glenn/Sibley light) our problems have a potential of getting even worse.

The observation that you made regarding the Sibley traffic lessening. I would have to disagree. Other than when Bidwell was closed, things have always run in waves. It seems that when people get stuck in here for 20 or 30min or so on, the next day things clear up a bit. I assume they are trying different routes. Not sure. Then day after day the amount of vehicles increase again till they realize they again are sitting in here longer than they would be on Riley or Blue Ravine. Then things clear out again and start all over. I can only assume this is what is happening, because as far back as I can remember it runs in waves. It’s just like the bumper to bumper traffic on days, runs in waves. You will have bumper to bumper for 15 or 20 min and then out of know where it clears up and we then have our lovely speeders back, but it never fails the bumper to bumper comes back maybe 15 to 20 min later, and it will run in droves like this. That’s why the city traffic counts, irritate me so much. They take traffic counts one day and say that is how much traffic you have, that’s not true. They could be getting high or low counts depending on the day of the week, what’s going on in the community or the waves of traffic I have observed. I just know that we receive traffic from 50, Iron Point road, Prairie City, Blue Ravine, Glenn, Lembi and Bidwell all heading for a two lane residential road in the Historic District, this is insane. How many lanes of traffic is that? I can’t figure out why so many cannot see a problem with this.

Also, I believe the traffic counts show that there is just as much traffic going the other direction, it just does not get stuck because it’s not waiting for an opening in traffic to go, like coming off of Sibley to Natoma. However, the city felt that there was a fix for this. Lets just put in another light there, to let traffic through. I can’t believe this was ever recommended, they certainly were not considering what was in the best interest of this neighborhood. This would have caused us to deal with bumper to bumper traffic throughout the entire day while they waited for the light to turn green and then the rest of the time when the light was green, it would encourage them to speed through the neighborhood to make the light, it would have invited even more people into the neighborhood cutting through every street to get to this light, it would not of prevented the back up on Sibley as they waited for the light to turn from red to green, causing even more cut through traffic on the other streets throughout the day, unless they changed the light so often to clear this traffic from the neighborhood, again causing additional speeding to make the light and then causing back ups on Natoma and the turning lane off of Folsom Blvd onto Natoma. This would have been a catastrophe for everyone, This neighborhood and for those on Natoma and Folsom Blvd, the only ones to benefit would be the people cutting through a residential neighborhood. Thank god this did not pass, let me add, so far. The answer is not to make it easier for them to cut through, to actual invite them in and disrupt an entire neighborhood and the main arterial system because of them, the answer to me is the same as always prevent them from coming in and they can get in line with the rest (that rest, would include me, I'm in the traffic on Folsom Blvd and Riley to). Why should they be rewarded for cutting in front of all the others who have waited? To me this goes back to elementary school. This would be like the kid from the back of the line cutting to the front, but not only that, smacking every kid across the head a few times and then punching them in the gut on the way (this would be us), and when he gets there, being given a lollipop and balloon for doing so. There are many other things wrong with this light but as usual, I’ve already written a book.

[Orangetj]

I'd say that's a fairly representative picture Sibley Resident posted. I have one on my computer at home taken from the intersection of Lembi and Sibley that shows the same type of backed up traffic starting about 100 yards south of Lembi and continuing all the way north on Sibley down to Natoma. That was a particularly bad day, though. Usually, it seems like the traffic really backs up about halfway between Bidwell and Lembi and continues that way all the way to Natoma.

[Orangetj]

To anybody who's been involved in the ongoing effort to "calm" traffic in the Sibley/Bidwell/Lembi area, has there been any new news? I've been out of pocket lately with work & family responsibilities, so I apologize for not having been able to lend my assistance with any efforts. Has the city just let this issue drop, or does it look like SOMETHING is going to be done?

OrangeTJ

[Terry]

I haven't heard anything significant lately.........however, I just drove down Sibley and there were surveyors on Sibley at Lembi doing their thing. Don't know what that's about.

[tony]

Terry: Probably the small residential development going in behind the houses at the NE corner of Lembi and Sibley.

[tony]

Sibley: According to Rich Lorenz, the city does have plans for a double NB left turn from Prairie City to Blue Ravine. Unfortunately, it sounds like it is one or more years away.

[Sibley Resident]

Our committee met with Public Works and Council members Andy Morin and Kerri Howell last week. It looks like we are on a schedule to meet with them every other week; we will be meeting again next week. They have assured us that they take the problems in the neighborhoods bordered by Glenn, Riley, Natoma and Folsom Blvd seriously and that they will come up with a solution for us. However, my feelings on this really have not changed. It does not seem that we can even come to an agreement on exactly what is causing the problems or what the problems even are, so I’m not sure how we will agree on any solutions. It seems that the city wants to try this or try that and slowly peck away at the problems, in the meantime we will have to continue to live under these worsening conditions. Many of us cannot accept this, especially with no end in sight. I know many of my neighbors that are now planning on moving this year. It’s very sad that the people who have a very deep appreciation for this area and these homes are being run out. In return the same thing that has been happening will continue to happen. The homeowners sell, the investors than buy. I have nothing against investors or renters, but I do realize an investor buys a home to make money and not to give their heart and soul and there finances to their investment, it is there to make them money, not for them to dump their money into. The renters, which I have some near me, are some of the best neighbors I have ever had. Unfortunately, the home is not there’s though and so they of course are not going to spend their hard earned money on it. This is what causes blight and if this city does not do something, this is what is happening and will continue to happen in this cities Historic District.

I’m very disheartened with Tony’s comment about what Rich Lorenz stated about the NB traffic from Prairie City Road. This was something that we addressed at our last meeting with them and they assured us they would look into doing something there, I was not expecting it to be years. I have to hope this is wrong and they are looking at something more immediate. This is something that could significantly help us.

I guess I should be thankful they are meeting with us. However, we have already been there and done that and have received nothing. I have to wonder if this is just another exercise for us, to get nothing. I hope not.

[Sibley Resident]

Orangetj, Our committee had another meeting with City Officials. I just wanted to give you a general update.

For the first time in a long time I left a meeting feeling fairly positive about things. I do believe the city officials are serious about helping us. I don’t believe they would be participating in these meetings just to waste their time and ours, although at times I have felt that way. When I step out of the situation and try to look at it objectively, I do believe they are trying to help.

A lot of my frustrations have been actions speak louder than words and up till now we have done a lot of talking, but have not received any actual results. My feelings on that has always been that we have not agreed on what is causing the problems, what the problems actually are, the potential of what our problems will be and coming to an agreement to what extent the speeds and volume would need to be reduced to be consider acceptable by us, that the city would approve. Until these things are agreed on, I cannot see how we can ever come to an agreement on what to try to get the results we want if we don’t know what the results we want are. I’m not sure that we even came to an agreement about these at this meeting, but I do feel that we are getting a lot closer on the issues. A lot of the questions I have had, were answered at this meeting, some of the answers I liked and some I didn’t, but it is a lot easier to go forward with something when you know where people stand. I feel that I’m beginning to get straightforward answers regarding their positions on things and explanations to those positions, which I greatly appreciate. This provides us the opportunity to know what we have to work with. I’m not someone who minces my words, and no one would have to read between the lines to know my opinion or position on things, I have a great amount of respect for those that are just as straight forward with me even if I disagree with them (at least I know where they stand), than with those that I have to try and read between the lines. There were several times that I made assumptions and had an opinion about something, and instead of just allowing me to continue with that understanding and getting more angry, I was provided explanations of why they felt my assumptions were incorrect. In some cases, I understood and could possibly see things their way and in some I still disagreed but I greatly appreciated them discussing it. I’m feeling more positive about this process than at any point before. Don’t get me wrong, I feel that I’ve been burned one to many times and I’m still skeptical, but this last meeting went a long ways to repairing some very harsh feelings towards this city and this process and I’m just hoping these sort of meetings continue.

[thargetbaddib]

do not understand