159 replies to this topic

[Steve Heard]

Parklady

Do you understand why the school needs a drop off facility?

Walking isn't safe or practical, one parking lot is often blocked, the other so crowded that traffic spills onto the street, the bikers rightfully want a clear lane, we sure don't want parents dropping the kids off in the middle of the street, and it is unfair to residents to have them dropped off in front of their homes.

The kids need to get to school. Getting dropped off in front of your house, while inconsiderate, isn't illegal (I am not endorsing it).

Jagay, I don't necessarily object to the Safeway idea, but I'd bet the property owners would. While I'd like to think it would mean more business for the merchants there, it is more likely that it would cause customers to avoid the area during drop off and pick up times.

Further, there is the liability issue, should one of those kids get hit by a car, or bump their heads.

No, the best solution is to allow parents to drop their kids off right out front, as is done at most other schools.

[tessieca]

Safeway, unlike Intel, has been quite kind about allowing overflow traffic in their parking lot. I know lots of parents who do pick up there. The thought makes my heart skip a beat though, because of the fact that is one of the speediest intersections, with probably the most red-light-runners in the city. Kids tend to go when they have the right of way. I'd be afraid they wouldn't be attentive to cars that aren't following the rules.

[Steve Heard]

Tessie

Come on! Those kids could use the excercise! They'll increase speed and agility while dodging the speeding cars. And the best part? The bike lanes are clear! It's a 'can't lose' situation!

[parklady]

Stevethedad-
I'm not in disagreement with you about a drop off point - I thought that was the purpose with the Iron Point entrance at Grover. At least that's where I used to have to enter to drop off my son when he attended two years ago. Yes - it does take some time because of the growing number of students and I had to allow for extra time. I'm not against having people in front of my home - but don't you think it's beyond brazen for people to actually help themselves to the use of my driveway? I'm talking full on my property, not parking on the street in front of my home. Folsom drivers are the rudest I have ever experienced, and having kids to get to school doesn't excuse it or make it right.

[tessieca]

I absolutely loved living near my children's school prior to moving to Folsom. Yes, it was annoying that cars blocked driveways, etc., whenever there was a school event, but it really didn't matter since we just walked right past them to the school. It's all temporary. They don't stay long. Look on the bright side

Hey, Stevethedad, maybe we could lose our beer bellies by chasing them! LOL

[Steve Heard]

Parklady

Remember, I am not endorsing people dropping their kids off in your driveway, I know I wouldn't like it. What I am saying is that the problem could be eased if parents were allowed to stop in front of the school.

Obviously, if we have full parking lots, people stopping in the streets, in bike lanes, in the Safeway lots, and in front of people's homes, something has to be done. The solution offered by some is to ticket the ones in the bike lanes, and make the kids walk.

Tessieca, the school has more students now than ever, and that parking lot on Grover is often blocked by police vehicles, I believe, in response to admistration concerns over too many cars in the lot.

We need a legal drop off lane in spot in front of the school.

[OctoberLily]

This is what we did to fix our problem with the drop off. We sold our house to move closer to the school. Now, we live across the street from the high school.

As for Tony's suggestion about walking, many of the kids that I know that live within a 2 mile radius of the school WALK or bike to school. Most of them walk to school - except when it's raining. Then parents have no choice but to drive their kids to school and drop them off.

I have tried many different ways to get my kids to school on time when it rains. It's almost impossible unless I drop them off an hour before school starts.

Believe me, the parents of the kids at the high school are not happy with the drop off and pick up situation.

Everytime my kids walk to school, I pray to God that they get there safely because I've seen how people drive on Iron Point Road. They completely ignore the 25 mph zone. They zig zag between cars to get 3 seconds faster to where they need to be.

As for dropping my kids off at Safeway and making them cross Iron Point Road and Prairie City - there is no way in heck that I would do that specifically because I hear the Police and Fire Engines on a weekly basis heading towards that direction because of some accident that occurred at that intersection. That is the worst intersection in Folsom besides Blue Ravine and Prairie City Road where I've seen serious accidents (2 side impact red light runners on Iron and Priarie and a roll over on Blue Ravine and Prairie). Just crossing the street for these kids is an obstacle. The drivers are either talking on their phone or are busy reading something while they drive.

Everyone's in a hurry to get to where they are going. Even bicyclists are not immune to breaking laws. I've seen some go through an intersection even though there was a red light. I have yet to see one stop at a stop sign unless a car was going through it. They just look and then they go. I also see runners do this. Maybe we all should slow down a bit.

[camay2327]

Bicyclists don't think the laws of the road apply to them. The majority of them do not stop at stop signs and they think they own the road. (This is my opinion) All you bicyclists do not have to jump on me for that.

[tony]

It's easy to bash bicyclists as scofflaws. Many are. But, look in the mirror. Motorists do the same thing at stop signs. Bad behavior is bad behavior, regardless of who does it. A little education and enforcement all around would go a long way. I'm all for ticketing bicyclists just as I wish there were more enforcement of all of our traffic laws. Scofflaw bicyclists just make it more dangerous and unpleasant for thoe of us who do obey the law while riding the streets. That said, bicyclists are not the cause of your traffic woes; they are part of the solution. Every one represents one less car on the road. So we should be encouraging cycling as much as possible, not trying to take away the small, hard-earned, spaces that bicyclists now have to provide minimal protection from the masses of high speed, discourteous traffic. (BTW, you will sometimes see cyclists running red lights after stopping, particularly making left turns; this is because many traffic signals will not detect bicycles and are therefore effectively defective, making it legal to treat them as stop signs, although I don't know that this has been tested in the courts)

As for bicyclists thinking they own the road....you bet we do, exactly as much as motorists do (because bicycles are treated as vehicles in the vehicle code, because most of us are also motorists, but more importantly, because most of the roads we ride on -- city streets -- are funded by general use taxes like property taxes, developer fees and sales tax, not gas taxes).

Finally, I'm glad to hear so many students living within 2 miles walk to school (although I doubt it is anywhere near a majority of them), but exactly why is it that they cannot do so in the rain? Will they melt? People in New York City (and other non-suburban places) who use transit and walk to their final destinations do not all hop in their cars and drive every time it rains. They don rain coats and umbrellas and stay dry. What a concept! Reminds me of whata cyclists friend of mine from England told me last week: people around here use their cars as 4000 lb umbrellas.

[Ahnold]

I like Jagayman's suggestion! Most of the stores in the Safeway center aren't open first thing in the morning when the kids are dropped off, and like someone said, I doubt the stores mind having folks in their lot at the 3pm pickup - a few of them probably get some shopping done!

I've heard that the school and the city have talked about the drop-off matter before. The City says its a school problem for not making adequate drop-off areas on the campus (and, in my opinion for charging for bus service!) - and of course the school thinks its the city's problem because it happens out on the street. If that's all true, then I would have to take the city's side on this one - they aren't creating the traffic, the school is, and so it should be the school's responsibility to improve the situation, in my opinion.

[Steve Heard]

Tony Tony Tony

After chastising the FHS parents for dropping their kids off in the bike lane, saying, " The bottom line is that in the interest of your convenience and the perceived safety of your children, you are willing to break the law on a daily basis...Rationalize all you want, but by conciously deciding that the law does not apply to you, you are a very big part of the problem of poor traffic etiquette..."

Today you admit that, "...you will sometimes see cyclists running red lights after stopping, particularly making left turns; this is because many traffic signals will not detect bicycles and are therefore effectively defective, making it legal to treat them as stop signs, although I don't know that this has been tested in the courts)"

Shame, shame!

I thought the law was the law?

I guess it would be inconvenient to walk your bike across the crosswalk instead of running the red light.

[parklady]

Stevethedad -
Why not look to the school district and the city planners to fix this problem? It seems we are all going round and round on whose rights are primary - cyclists, parents, pedestrians on a problem that has been created for us. It really is their problem to fix. They are the ones that built a school with a capacity of somewhere upwards of 2500+ kids and not enough safe access. The emphasis needs to be placed on safety for all. From what I see, it's pretty much the norm here in Folsom . What I see is a free for all in which the individual is left to pick up for themselves. The school district seems to do anything in their power to reduce liability, hence limit access, etc. The same thing is happening with junior league football at Livermore Park. Whereas these events were always held for years at the middle school field - a logical location in a school with adequate parking, school spirit, etc. But instead of continuing to allow the kids to play at the school, they now practice and stage large events in a residential neighborhood drawing literally thousands of people into the neighborhood for 12+ hours straight and sometiimes over the span of both days over a weekend. No parking is allowed on Riley or McAdoo for the park, so all the cars end up in front of the houses on Carter and all of the adjoining streets in Willow Springs. So much to the point that literally no parking is available in this subdivision for Willow Springs residents and their guests for an entire day. Same thing as the high school - why take the liability for safety, traffic concerns, etc. when you can push it onto the individual and the neighborhoods nearby? Do you see anyone jumping to solve this problem? It was that way when the high school opened and it continues 5 years later. It will probably take a really tragic event to wake them up. Laissez-faire seems to be the norm, but from what I can see, it isn't always the best policy.

[forumreader]

I agree that the City of Folsom and the school district need to work together to find a solution that will address the transportation and safety needs of commuters, citizens, parents and students. Perhaps there already is dialogue.

The City Traffic Engineer is Mark Rackovan (355-7379); mrackovan@folson.ca.us

Don Butler is a school district representative who sits on the city's Traffic Safety Committee.
dbutler@fcusd.k12.ca.us


An example of the City and school district working together is the new flashing pedestrian cross walk on E. Bidwell, near Sutter Middle School. Although there still remains serious traffic congestion in the area, especially during pick-up time, I believe it has made pedestrian crossing much safer.

[tony]

To follow up on Ahnold's comment about charging for busing. Maybe the city would be better served by subsidizing the school buses (not that most parents in Folsom can't afford it) instead of spending $325,000 to lobby the federal government to get the dam road open.

Steve: Thanks for taking the bait. Bicycles are legal users of the road. If signals will not change for cyclists, then the signals are denying the cyclist the right to safely use the road, and are therefore non-functioning, or defective. The CA vehicle code says that non-functioning signals are to be treated as stop signs. This is not a case of selectively obeying the law. Once you pull into a left turn lane and find out the signal will not change (as evidenced by the cross traffic getting green lights more than once), you have two options: stand in the middle of high speed traffic hoping someone will pull up behind you and trip the signal (and even if they do, they may not trip the signal if they leave too much room behind you -- this is a much more common occurrence than you might think), or wait for an opening and go. Becoming a pedestrian is not an option once you've committed to the turn lane; at that point you have no way to get to a button, as you are already halfway across the street. Incidentally, while the CA vehicle code does not specifically address this situation, the PA one does, stating jsut what I said, that the signal should be treated as a stop sign if it won't change.

[Steve Heard]

Tony

Glad to take the bait. Here's one for ya. If you were before me in court, I'd be inclined to remind you that traffic lights were not designed for bicycles, but for larger or heavier vehicles. If the traffic signals do respond to such vehicles, they are not defective. Bicyclists do have an option: Get off the bike, push the little button, and wait for the light to change, so they can cross the street legally. Unless you could prove to me that you'd never been to that light before, and therefore did not know the light would not change for you until you were already too far away to safely and legally walk over to push the button, I'd fine you. Booyah! Cha-ching!

Parklady, et al,

What you are describing is a classic case of 'it's not my yob!'

Yes, the city blames the school, and the school blames the city. Now, both sides are suffering from the budget cuts that we demanded, so neither has the resources to build an alternative.

The city folks tell me that they warned the school district that they needed to better accomodate student drop offs. The school district and their architects wanted a pretty school instead.

By the way, if I'm not mistaken, it was built for 1600, not the 2500 or so enrolled today.

The school can turn around and say it's not their fault the city allowed unfettered growth.

It could take years of arguing over who should pay for it.

In the meantime, kids have to get to school. Today.

As I've said before, we need both a near term and long term solution. The near term is to allow parents to legally stop in front of the school. The long term is to have a drop off lane built, as has been done a Folsom Middle School.

All other suggestions; walking, dropping off in the shopping center lot, and writing tickets, are impractical.