219 replies to this topic

[Shadow]

The 40 additional minutes come from me having to stay on Folsom Blvd and sit in the parking lot of traffic until Bidwell. Before I could take Natoma Station to Blue Ravine to Sibley to pick up my children.

Using the logic that since there is no other solution to cut down on heavy traffic on a primarily residential street simply because traffic volume is to high leaves the door open to residents of heavily traveled streets to have their streets closed. Sibley is not the first street closed because of high traffic volumes and if the Folsom City Council continues on this path, it will not be the last. Closing any residential street to through traffic solely bacuse of high traffic volume is just not a solution that should be accepted. This street closure is costing local residents and local businesses far more than the benefit it is providing.

[Sibley Resident]

Wow, Pacoloco & Orangetj, I’m so glad that you can remain patient and understanding.

I’m trying to figure out for the life of me what people are not getting about neighborhoods being affected and not just one residential street. If you want to sit there and say that you could care less about the entire neighborhood, the people in it, our quality of life, our safety and our children, than at least I would know that you are trying to look at the bigger picture and just don’t care. However, as long as people insist on believing this is about one residential street (and even if it was is just as important as anyone else’s) with one business that was a residential house that was turned into a daycare, than you will never be able to understand what is really going on here.

Your taxpayer money goes to these streets, well so does mine. So as far as I’m concerned all those nice pretty roads that haven’t yet been destroyed by the bumper to bumper commute traffic like ours, maybe like Diggins, that has a nice Iron fence protecting it from cut through traffic, should be opened. Then I and everyone else can use it from Bidwell over to Lembi and from Lembi over to Bidwell so we don’t have to sit in that awful traffic on Riley. We should also remove the brick walls or Iron Fences in place to protect all those other residential streets from through traffic along Riley, Oak Ave, Iron Point road, etc.. etc…, so we can all use them. How about we not put in the EVA’s for the housing development that is going in on the corner of Iron Point and Oak Ave Parkway, why don’t we not put in the EVA at Woodsmoke, oh that’s right, because the people that live there and the future residents do not want cut through traffic in their neighborhoods. There are businesses on the other side of these developments though, and maybe I and others would prefer to drive through these neighborhoods instead of having to go around, so the few homes in there are not benefiting from my inconvenience of having to go around, after all it is just one neighborhood. My money goes to those streets to, so I have a right to drive on them. Oh that’s right, I can drive on them, I just have to go around to get to them, so actually my rights have not actually been taken away from me.

As far as making the arterial system work better. The neighborhoods, the residential streets and the arterial system is a significant portion of what all of this is about but there is more. If the city allows this to continue and increase, they will have to decide how they are going to get the traffic out of the neighborhoods. Meaning “Stoplights” at Sibley and Natoma (a stoplight that would be way to close to Natoma and Folsom Blvd signal on a Blind curved hill, even the traffic engineers can tell you that is a no, no.) Lembi and Riley, Bidwell and Riley, and more. More stoplights on the arterial roads hindering the flow of traffic, causing more people to go into the neighborhoods. What a vicious cycle, is that what everyone really wants. I know, for the minority (just the few that would benefit) of you that use the neighborhood, would be thrilled about it. However, I’m sure the thousands and thousands of drivers that use Folsom Blvd, Natoma and Riley would not be excited to have the flow of traffic hindered on there arterial system because of the minority that wants to cut through a neighborhood. Additional stoplights on the arterial system just so people cutting through a neighborhood can get out, screwing up the arterial system and an entire neighborhood. That sounds brilliant. Or do you stop all of that chaos and protect the neighborhoods and the arterial system by preventing people from cutting through?

As far as closing streets just because there is through traffic on them. If that was the case than you are right, there would be 100’s of street closures, totally unreasonable, but there isn’t is there. The reason is because in the few places they have been implemented, simple through traffic is not what is happening, or the only issue. A street closure is an accepted volume traffic calming measure used by cities all across the United States and in Europe. The city of Folsom is far from the first and certainly will not be the last that has had to resort to this, to control the volume of through traffic in a neighborhood.

It is illegal to make a left hand turn from Bidwell and Persifer onto Riley at certain points of the day. I can only assume because the city has had difficulties enforcing the no left hand turns without physical barriers, is why they actually put the physical barrier at Lembi and Riley.

If we did not have the geographic problems we do, than maybe the grid system, would work and maybe it would work in other areas of the city, but the Historic District is set up in that road system and it is not working here in the very small corner of the city. Unfortunently, we do have the geographical problems were everything funnels into one area. We can choose to have chaos and vehicles ruling the streets including residential, pushing and shoving, all just to be first in line to get over the two bridges or we can line them up in a nice orderly fashion and move them across quicker, kind of like, we tell our school children all trying to get through the same door. Line up, Be patient, wait your turn and you will get through the door faster.

[mtnhiker]

QUOTE (Shadow @ May 11 2004, 04:07 PM)

This street closure is costing local residents and local businesses far more than the benefit it is providing.

Shadow,
let me enlighten you a bit on the gravity of the situation here.
First of all,this is not being done for a 'benefit' to the
residents of Sibley and Lembi Street.
It is being done due to state law requiring a city to enforce
the residential speed laws. This can be done in part by any number
or a combination of ways.

One would be to ticket speeders.This has been stated that it
would not address the volume situation.

Another way to enforce speed laws is to reduce volume ,and in
this case much of the volume are cut thru commuters. This
has the effect of less speeders without manpower expended in
this war-time period when they are needed for other duties.

The point I am making that it is against state law for continued
speeding to exist as well as excessive noise above a %decibel level
for residential areas.

[Orangetj]

Excellent points, mtnhiker, and one's which are generally overlooked. Thanks!

[zach5]

I completely forgot about sibley street being closed the other day and tried to go down it and ended up having to turn around costing me about an extra 20 minutes to my drive.

[Stephen]

Americans and their love affair with their cars! Traffic is a way of life. And heavy traffic can be found in virtually every urban/suburban area. Why am I hearing my fellow Folsom residents speak as if they occupy some privileged status that makes them immune to traffic congestion.

The city of Folsom is doing what it should in trying to keep heavy traffic, especially cut-through traffic, off residential streets. It belongs on freeways and main arterials. We should also thank the residents in the Sibley area for acting as traffic calming pioneers. Or, guinea pigs? I can certainly empathize with Sibley Resident's frustrations. It sounds like he/she has worked very hard with the city and neighbors.

Folsom is not the only city in the US which has implemented traffic calming plans. Some cities have quite formalized programs. In California alone, the following cities have significant enough traffic calming programs to report on the web.

Berkeley, Burbank, Calabasas, Campbell, Century City, Citrus Heights, Cupertino, Danville, Encinitas, Encino, La Mesa, Livermore, Los Altos, Manhattan Beach, Oakland, Ojai, Palm Springs, Palo Alto, Pasadena, Riverside, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Jose, San Mateo, San Ramon, Santa Barbara, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, Saratoga, Turlock, Ventura, Walnut Creek, West Sacramento, Whittier.
(There are probably more.)

In fact, I could find evidence of traffic calming projects in every state except for Idaho, No. Dakota, So. Dakota and Wyoming. (Doesn't mean they don't have them.)

BTW, zach5, there are numerous signs posted announcing the closure, and giving drivers the opportunity to take a different route. One even flashes!

[1305newhouse]

Orangetj,

I'm curious as to the number of cars that "should" drive on Sibley during one 24-hour period. How do you know that 6,000 is too high a number? What about those of us who live on another of Folsom's Historic District streets? Are we allowed to drive in your neighborhood to get from our home to somewhere else in Folsom?

Newhouse

[Sibley Resident]

1/3 of the vehicles using the neighborhood are using it in a 4 hr period causing the bumper to bumper traffic (THE REASON THEIR IS A 3HR CLOSURE DURING THOSE TIMES) and are causing devastation on that residential street along with the other streets they use, to get to and from that street. The actual number is irrelevant, the result is the issue. It does not matter if it is 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, or 30,000 every street is going to have different capabilities, the number is not the issue. At whatever point that it creates a continuous flow of bumper to bumper traffic, is the problem (well according to what the city is trying to address). It creates a problem for not only that one residential street (that by the way should be helped even if it was the only one) but the whole neighborhood. We have a constant flow of traffic on the road the rest of the day but what the city has focused in on is the bumper to bumper traffic.

This is not solely about you, or me, or the neighbor on the adjoining road, This is not solely about your inconvenience or my benefits, or your benefits and my inconvenience. This is all important, but it is also about what is in the best interest of the city's neighborhoods (1/3 of the cities Historic District), now and in the future. The city needs to decide what it wants for it's neighborhoods, maybe what it advertises, or allow them to turn into traffic sewer systems. Peoples quality of life have been adversely effected in their own homes across the country as increased commuter traffic finds it way into neighborhoods, research shows that residents and cities are fighting back all across the United States and Europe, with a valuable tool called traffic calming that was developed in Europe and has been practiced in Europe and the United States for decades. We are not the only ones that have traffic problems and are trying to fix them, we are only late getting started. The question is, does our city join the other cities all across the United States and Europe that is trying to protect their neighborhoods and decide as research shows a persons quality of life in their home is valuable and provides things that most people could not understand until it was taken away from them, or do they allow the traffic to create chaos destroying everything in it's path.

[Lembi Resident]

QUOTE (Sibley Resident @ May 12 2004, 07:04 AM)

Wow, we are not the only ones that have traffic problems and are trying to fix them, we are only late getting started. The question is, does our city join the other cities all across the United States and Europe that is trying to protect their neighborhoods and decide as research shows a persons quality of life in their home is valuable and provides things that most of the people here could not understand until it was taken away from you to, or do they allow the traffic to create chaos destroying everything in it's path.

Sibley Resident: Although we might be a little late in starting to address traffic problems in established neighborhoods, such as the Historic District and surrounding areas, it seems to me that Folsom has been taking a proactive traffic calming approach in the development of new neighborhoods.

If you drive through newer developments, you will see gateway features, winding residential streets (a chicane effect), left/right turn prohibitions, medians, clear signage, EVAs (emergency vehicle access only).

With the rapid growth in Folsom, and the resulting increased traffic, calming measures such as diverters and road closures might be necessary in the established neighborhoods. Originally, the street layout may not have been designed with traffic calming and rapid growth in mind.

It is commendable that the city is building new neighborhoods with streets designed to provide quality of life to residential areas. Like so many other residents in older neighborhoods throughout the country, we are asking that our neighborhood be fixed! Shouldn't we have a chance to enjoy the "Folsom quality of life," just as our neighbors in the newer developments do?

[Pacoloco]

Something to keep in mind. There is a "sense" for time, and then there's using your watch. It may feel like 20 or 40 minutes, but in actuallity only be 3, 5, or 10 minutes. I ask that, when you commute home tonight, look at your watch and see just exactly how long you are "stuck" in traffic. You may be surprised that its not as long as it may seen. Time always passes slower when stuck in traffic . . .

[Pacoloco]

QUOTE (1305newhouse @ May 12 2004, 05:12 AM)

I'm curious as to the number of cars that "should" drive on Sibley during one 24-hour period. How do you know that 6,000 is too high a number? What about those of us who live on another of Folsom's Historic District streets? Are we allowed to drive in your neighborhood to get from our home to somewhere else in Folsom?

Newhouse, along Sibley the focus is not necessarily a 24-hour period but during the peak commute hours. Between 3pm and 7pm there were 2,000+ cars traveling down Sibley. Maybe on a well-developed street, that volume would be OK. But, this is a street with spotted sidewalks, very thin bicycle lanes, no where for a car to go if it broke down (except for someone's lawn), and bottlenecks down to less than 23-feet at points. There just is no room along this street for that many cars + the people that live on it.

Do you live in the Historic District? If so, let me ask if your quality of life has improved. What's it like to stand in your front lawn now? Sure, the closure may make the commute longer to get home, but how is home once you get there? I do live in the Historic District, but not on Sibley St. Before the timed closure, I would rarely let my kids play in the front yard or ride their bikes. There were just too many cars. Now, there is much more play time than TV time, the way it should be with kids, because it is much safer. And yes, I am always supervising my children when they play in the front or ride their bikes. There are too many reasons other than traffic not to supervise.

[jagayman]

Two words: Elevated highways

When the HD grid was layed out a century and a half ago there was probably enough planning for 500 horses/hour and room for four or six horses across for fast and slow lanes. They also probably planned a "breakdown" lane for when nature called.

Yes, you got trouble. Right here in Folsom city. With a capital T that rhymes with P which stands for population.

I think in all seriousness, we have a problem where past and present have collided. You could have easily said that the only arterials were Sutter and Riley streets 50 years ago. Even Riley still has some residences that border it. Can Riley be widened through the HD? That wouldn't cause an uproar or anything

The blackout in the East last year is very similar to the traffic problems in Folsom. One section goes out, the extra load gets dispearsed across the remaining lines. Eventually these give out and the remaining lines are burdened even worse. Add to that the volume is still increasing. Eventually you are going to have a system-wide failure.

The only way this is going to get better is to tackle the root cause of the problem. Speed up the flow up Folsom Blvd/Folsom Auburn Road. Redesign the Folsom Auburn/Greenback intersection. Make it a more attractive route -- add lanes for example.

Another option is speed-triggered spike strips to slow down the speeders and spike strips for residential yards.

Those elevated highways are starting to sound more attractive by the minute

-jason.

[Lembi Resident]

QUOTE (jagayman @ May 12 2004, 12:56 PM)

Yes, you got trouble.  Right here in Folsom city.  With a capital T that rhymes with P which stands for population. Another option is speed-triggered spike strips to slow down the speeders and spike strips for residential yards.

Very good, Jason!


Actually, our citizen's group did discuss the use of spikes with the City! Yet for some reason, they found that measure unacceptable. A three-hour road closure on a residential street, some turn restrictions, a signal at Glenn/Sibley, and a focus on making the main arterial system more viable seemed like a more reasonable plan.

[jagayman]

Ahhh!!! what's the fun in that! At least with the spike strips, you can sit back on the front porch with some iced tea, a straw hat, and watch the chaos in action

-jason.

[Shadow]

I know that several other options have been considered and turned down without trial for various reasons. Has the following option been explored?

Install a traffic light at Sibley and Glenn (I know that this is already in the works), and use it more as a meter/funnel limiting the flow of traffic allowed down Sibley past Glenn.

For traffic using Sibley towards Natoma:

>> First, the left turn lane from Sibley onto Glenn would need to be lengthened to handle the high volume of traffic that will need to turn left. The left turn light from Sibley onto Glenn could remain green for an extended time to encourage and allow a high volume of traffic to use the left turn and head towards Folsom Blvd.

>> The green light that would allow traffic to continue on Sibley could be very short and only allow only 4 cars at a time through. >> A right turn green light from Sibley onto Glenn could be used to allow a higher volume of cars to turn right onto Glenn and head towards Riley.

>> I addition to the light, the intersection of the Diamond Glenn sub division and Sibley should have a 3 way stop. This will provided a needed break on the stretch from Glenn to Lembi and should help to discourage speeding.



For Traffic on Glenn coming from Folsom Blvd:

>> The left turn from Glenn onto Sibley would also be short and only allow up to 4 cars at a time through

>> The green light for traffic continuing straight through on Glenn would remain green long enough for optimal flow of traffic.



For Traffic on Glenn coming from Riley:

>> The left turn from Glenn onto Sibley (heading toward Blue Ravine) would remain green long enough for optimal flow of traffic.

>> The green light for traffic continuing straight through on Glenn would remain green long enough for optimal flow of traffic.

>> No Right Turns on Red would be allowed from Glenn onto Sibley



For traffic using Sibley towards Blue Ravine:

>> The light would remain green long enough for optimal flow of traffic



I know that this is a complex way to set up a traffic light at an intersection. However, I think that by setting the light up this way will strongly discourage commuters from using Sibley straight through, will significantly cut down on the traffic flow on Sibley past Glenn, and will still allow the road to remain open for those who need to use it for reaching local residents and businesses. This is also a solution that could work 24 hours a day as opposed to only 3 hours a day.

Similar timing could be used at the Blue Ravine and Prairie City/Sibley intersection to encourage drivers to begin heading toward Riley or Folsom before the hit the Glenn intersection.

Also, I think that there should be stop signs placed at all intersections, including the T intersections, on Lembi in order to control speeding. Because Lembi is on a hill, people tend to pick up speed more quickly and the long stretches between stop signs only encourage this.

I only wish I had some thoughts on how to handle the on Glenn from Riley down to Sibley. Making lefts from Coble Ridge onto Glenn is nearly impossible and extremely unsafe due to the speeding and the blind curve.