165 replies to this topic

[disenchanted]

Bordercolliefan, a judge making a decision based on "the greater good" of society versus proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not what our criminal justice system is based on. Again, I'm only expressing my opinion but I sat throught that entire trial and do not believe that the allegations were proved beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, there was a prepondance of doubt. Too much credible and significant defense testimony and evidence was simply dismissed which truly baffles me.


Steve, my understanding is that the girl admitted to hopping on the toilet each time one of the honors student came in.

It makes much more sense to me that a girl in her situation being suspended from class and ultimately school for getting caught having sex and later being threatned with perjury would lie without realizing how far the whole lie would take her rather than believe that a kid that had no violence in his history would suddenly become over a week span a serial rapist.

[Hanalei]

Steve the Dad,

Why do you keep repeating "honor students" as if they are somehow different than the rest of the non-honor students?

Also, it's not like they peeked their heads under the stalls to count legs. Ever been in a public restroom before? You can walk in and easily see under a stall. It's not hard to imagine.

It's also not hard to imagine why a few young boys would think it's funny someone was having sex in the bathroom and wanting to send their friends to go check it out.

Some of you have been out of high school too long!

[Steve Heard]

QUOTE (Hanalei @ Jun 25 2004, 06:16 PM)

Steve the Dad, Why do you keep repeating "honor students" as if they are somehow different than the rest of the non-honor students? Also, it's not like they peeked their heads under the stalls to count legs. Ever been in a public restroom before? You can walk in and easily see under a stall. It's not hard to imagine. It's also not hard to imagine why a few young boys would think it's funny someone was having sex in the bathroom and wanting to send their friends to go check it out. Some of you have been out of high school too long!

Hanalei

I keep using 'honors students' because that's how the rapists defenders keep describing them as if indeed they are better, and therefore more credible than non-honors students. Then, in the same breath, the 3 girls who accused the boy are labeled as lying sluts.

I don't believe that 4 honors students from the same classroom each just happened to have to use the bathroom that period.

You are correct, it isn't hard to imagine why a few young boys would think it's funny. The fact is, this girl was raped, and the implication is that those 4 boys knew about it, and as you put it, thought it was funny.

I don't.

Perhaps I am overly sensitive, as I have two daughters, and as I wrote earlier, I know women who have been raped. I also know that we have a history of blaming the victim.

[Hanalei]

Steve,
What in the world are you talking about? Did you even read what I wrote?

Nobody said that the boys *just happened* to have to go to the bathroom. What was said was that one thought someone was having sex in the bathroom and thought it was funny and told his buddies to check it out.

Why is it hard for you to imagine that a bunch of hormonal teenage boys in a boring chemistry class, would find it ammusing to go check out who's getting fresh in the bathroom. Met any young boys lately? We're you ever one?

OBVIOUSLY those boys DID NOT know someone was being raped. Give me a break...do you really think they would all trail in to the bathroom to get a chuckle out of it if they thought someone was being assaulted. I never said that was funny. Try reading my post again before you hit reply next time.

We are ALL overly sensitive about this subject because it's sensitive subject. Most of us know someone who have been sexually assualted, many of us have had it happen to us. You have daughters, so that makes it sensitive to you. Well, I have a son, that makes it sensitive to me.

None of us will ever know the truth of what happened except those kids who were there.

The only thing I am debating is how a few girls can claim rape, and with little evidence, send someone to jail for 10 years. Even if he did it and was 100% guilty, the evidence was not clear enough for that kind of punishment.
Can you at least agree with that or is having daughters going to cloud your judgement?

[Steve Heard]

Hanalei

You misunderstood my post.

Up until this evening when Folsom Junior stated that one of the kids saw it, then informed the others, who went to check it out, it was always portrayed as 4 boys honors students, going into the bathroom separately.

The implication being that these honest guys wouldn't lie. Never was it suggested that they all knew what was going on, and went to check it out, until now.

I never suggested they were lying, but many have suggested the girls are.

You ask what would motivate the boys to lie? What would motivate the girls? Who wants to be known as a rape or sexual assault victim? It's no badge of honor, and nothing to brag about. On the other hand, witnessing 'hilarious' sex might be something for boys to brag about.

I know you never said it was funny. Folsom Jr said the boys thought it was hilarious.

We may never know the full story here. What it looks like though, is that a boy took a girl into the bathroom with him, the fooled around, someone saw them, they fooled around some more, she told him to stop, and that she wanted to leave, he wouldn't let her go, and forced her to have sex, and she reported it.

Having daughters may or may not have clouded my judgement, and maybe clouded judgement is what this case is all about.

The girl, the boy, the 4 boys who witnessed it, the girls who were previously molested by him, they all may have had clouded judgement.

I don't want the innocent to go to prison, nor the guilty to go free.

Looking at what has been written, spoken and reported about the case, I would judge that the rape did occur, others see the opposite.

In talking to the rape victims I know, in reading about others, in seeing interviews with experts, the victims often blame themselves for being 'so stupid'. The feel stupid for drinking, stupid for going out there alone, stupid for trusting the guy, stupid for believing they were in control.

Clouded judgement, indeed.

[FolsomJunior00]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Jun 25 2004, 04:14 PM)

4 honors students? and they each check for legs under the stall doors? do you?

Yes, you do check, if the previous person told you to check it out


thats what happened, its not like they did it randomly

[FolsomJunior00]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Jun 25 2004, 07:58 PM)

The implication being that these honest guys wouldn't lie. Never was it suggested that they all knew what was going on, and went to check it out, until now. I never suggested they were lying, but many have suggested the girls are. You ask what would motivate the boys to lie? What would motivate the girls? Who wants to be known as a rape or sexual assault victim? It's no badge of honor, and nothing to brag about. On the other hand, witnessing 'hilarious' sex might be something for boys to brag about. I know you never said it was funny. Folsom Jr said the boys thought it was hilarious.

Witnessing hilarious sex? OMG Steve, bro, they never bragged about it, they went in because their friend tod them what was going on!!!! Steve, it isnt more complicated than that. Why dont you think they are not credible witnesses??? Its quite obvious they are. What happened was, one guy walked in, saw what happened, told everyone else, and one by one they went into the bathroom. They all saw the same thing, which was the girl jumped on the toliet. You make it sound like these witnesses were not credible; saying things like they were "bragging" about it is just plain ludacris. In fact, they never really said a word about it until they were called to the office because they were identified by the science teacher as going to that bathroom the rape took place at the same time. They never said a word about it until the news was broke the next day at school. How would i know? I would have been one of the first to find out from my two friends.

Secondly, the honors students in honors chemistry are a joke. Let me tell you, i took the class this year, same teacher, earlier in the day, and there was nothing "honors" about it. It went slower than the regular chem classes and we received less work. The "honors" label is a joke for some classes. Like "honors" physics offered to seniors. That is the easiest, most fun class seniors ever take. There is nothing "honors" about that either. So labling these kids as "honors students" is quite ludacris in itself

Steve, im not bashing you, though it may sound like it. I dont think you have the full story about those 4 witnesses, or you may have the wrong idea of what happened. Ask any question about it, and i will let you know how these guys were very credible witnesses in the trial

[bordercolliefan]

Disenchanted,

I have two questions for you.

1. Prior to the trial, did you know any of the parties or witnesses in the case?

2. You have stated that you find the alleged rape victim's testimony to be not credible. I think you have stated some good reasons in support of your conclusion. However, what of the two other girls whose stories the judge believed (i.e., the hands up their skirts)? If you disbelieved their testimony, why? What motive do you believe they had for lying?

[Steve Heard]

JR

I am not saying those boys weren't credible, but when it is mentioned that they were 'honors' students, is that not mentioned to imply that they are somehow more credible than the 3 girls who came forward?

They may well have been telling the truth, but it just gets me that the female witnesses have been called liars and sluts, while they boys are honors students.

[bigsheldy]

If she was being raped then why didn't she yell each time the 4 people came in there? Don't say it's because he had a weapon, he obviously didn't. Nobody ever brought that into the case, and she never said anything about it. So again, why would you not scream as you're being raped?

[forumreader]

QUOTE (disenchanted @ Jun 25 2004, 07:47 AM)

As a concerned curious Folsom resident I attended the entire trial......Although I did not see testimony from the alleged rape victim as the public was excluded from that portion....

disenchanted:

Is it not possible that you and other members of the public missed some very important testimony which might have been crucial to the judge in reaching his/her verdict?

[bishmasterb]

QUOTE (forumreader @ Jun 25 2004, 11:12 PM)

QUOTE (disenchanted @ Jun 25 2004, 07:47 AM) As a concerned curious Folsom resident I attended the entire trial......Although I did not see testimony from the alleged rape victim as the public was excluded from that portion.... disenchanted: Is it not possible that you and other members of the public missed some very important testimony which might have been crucial to the judge in reaching his/her verdict?

forum,

No that's not possible! Don't you know, that every person commenting in this thread has 100% of the facts about this case, has independently interviewed every witness, extensively poured over the public record and court transcripts, verified each piece of evidence at their personal crime lab and is looking at it from a completely unbiased, objective viewpoint?

Oh and of course they sat in on the jury deliberations as well...

[disenchanted]

Bordercolliefan,

I don't know the parties involved though my HS senior is an aquaintaince of one of the boys who went into the bathroom.

I'm drawing my conclusions not based on what I believe about the other girls, but what I saw presented at that trial. Firstly, their stories were different with various people: police officers; school officials and then in court; Mostly what was telling was the girls' friend who came forward and stated that one of the girls admitted to him that "she didn't want to go along with this anymore, that it was all just a big joke they made up because they didn't like him". When the boy was asked why he came forward he stated that he thought that with rape you are guilty until proven innocent and what if it were him. Why would he lie and lose his friendship with the girl and her older brother since he was purportedly their family friend?

Forumreader, yes I may have missed something since I didn't see the alleged rape victim's testimony. It's just all of the other testimony cast so much doubt on what happened being a rape: the five boys in the bathroom who all said the same exact thing. The testimony of the student who said the girl came back into the classroom acting completely normal and then was told that she was busted and suspended for leaving class without permission to which she replied "Oh my God, I only went to check the bus schedule". The teacher who testified that she appeared normal as she admonished her to go to the office and collect her things, that she was suspended. Testimony revealed that the girl then left to go to the office and then ran into the second girl who alleged that he had attempted to rape her on the previous Friday. The Judge threw her claim out - remember? -but this same girl is the one who came and got the teacher to come into the bathroom where the rape victim was waiting to tell her the reason she was out of class so long was because she got raped So she didn't report it, the girl whom the Judge deemed was a liar did. The Vice Principal testified that the father of the girl who claimed that he had tried to rape her told him his daughter intitially said the rape victim told her she'd had consensual sex with the boy. Then testimony from a karate expert that explained what kind of physical and mental fitness one must have in order to earn a black belt and that she not only had a blackbelt but was a karate teacher.

Nothing added up.

My personal conclusion is that the boy never stood a chance. He had four accusers and was tried and convicted in the media before the trial. This was a high profile media case and the political agenda today being put out there by the legislature and victims advocates make it next to impossible to be acquitted even if you are innocent. If the girls lied, as they mature and their conscience grows and they realize the gravity of their actions, then they will likely suffer great spiritual and inner conflict and perhaps would elect to purge their conscience.

Stevethedad, you are obviously a man that loves his daughters passionately and the work you involve yourself in this community speaks well of you. I admire folks that bother to step out of their own worlds and actually try to do something about social issues versus simply gripe about them. I envy that quality in you and wish I had it. I have a daughter and a son. Teenagers. Having watched them both in action going through High School I have observed that girls are very capable of being great actresses, crocodile tearing and lying to avoid trouble or to get attention. I have personally observed the sexuality of the female young people today to be quite open and aggressive, just like their male counterparts. Have you heard about rainbow parties? Have you heard about the bracelets that girls wear around their wrists as a means to show how many sexual partners they've had - this beginning in Jr. High School? My friend who has a student in Middle School recently told me that her son was "pantsed" by a fellow girl student at the Middle School, meaning the girl went behind him and pulled his britches down right in the middle of campus. The mother complained and guess what happened? Absolutely nothing! The Principal wouldn't even return her call for days and wrote it off has insignificant. Had the tables been turned the boy would have been likely arrested for sexual battery. We have a huge double standard at play here and it is no longer in favor of the males in our society.

We have a huge cultural problem in our society and it is permissive sexuailty which is a huge detriment to our young people. Does everyone know, especially teenagers, that sex under the age of 18 is unlawful? How could they know that when they have the right to obtain contraception and abortions without parental consent.? What an oxymoron that is - it is illegal to have sex but legal to get birthcontrol and abortions without mom or dad knowing. No wonder our kids are so confused.

Probably had this entire event been handled in the Principal's office with all parties involved and their parents first to get to the root of the truth this tragedy would never have occuredl. I think once the police and media got involved it spiraled to the point of no return.

[FolsomJunior00]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Jun 25 2004, 10:34 PM)

JR I am not saying those boys weren't credible, but when it is mentioned that they were 'honors' students, is that not mentioned to imply that they are somehow more credible than the 3 girls who came forward? They may well have been telling the truth, but it just gets me that the female witnesses have been called liars and sluts, while they boys are honors students.

Ahh, now i see your point.......i agree totally. No need to use the term Honors students


Trust me, that honors class is nothing to write home about. Its not like anyone had to take a test to get in it anyway

[FolsomJunior00]

disenchanted: Great post. I heard the same things about the girls, especially about the karate part, before the trial, but everyone blew me off saying that it may not be true, blah blah blah. Glad to see that it made it to trial

Anyways, take it from me, a FHS student: Sex is prominent in school, especially Folsom. Has anyone been to any teenage parties lately? Get lots of drunk students together and it can become one big orgy. Dead serious about this one.

And the double standard issue is so true: Girls can easily get away with things, such as pantsing and other sexual things, while a guy would get arrested and thrown in jail for it. Why does this happen? because of the treatment of women earlier in the century? i dont know, but how is that fair? You all want equality? then give the same treatment to all