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#121 banana

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 11:59 PM

SUPPORT THE KIDS !!!!

Folks, there is only so much money in school budgets (and that money comes from YOUR tax dollars) and the kids need to be the beneficiaries of education, not the teachers!

We live in America not in a communist country! Look at this comment from the post above:

"They have assured us that there is no evidence the district’s team cannot afford to make a better offer."

It's tantamount to blackmailing, extortion. How would you like it if you went to the supermarket and you couldn't buy a gallon of milk because they figure you can pay more based on your income or your assets??

We need to support choice of schools, vouchers, charter schools, elimination of tenure, bonuses for the best and brightest teachers directly out of the pay of the bottom 10% of BAD TEACHERS that would be let go!

THAT WOULD TRANSLATE TO SUPPORTING THE KIDS - YOUR KIDS - OUR KIDS!


THE LAST THING WE SHOULD BE SUPPORTING IS THE STATUS QUO!

There is no evidence that an increase in pay for the teachers will do anything to improve the education of the kids! VOTE FOR THE KIDS!

Do the kids need teachers like this? Teachers that spend so much of their time focused on a 0.66% decrease?

"If teachers accept the District team’s offer of 5.24% in total compensation, it will translate to a PAY CUT in the real value of our salary, or a decrease of 0.66%. Factor in the increasing cost of health benefits and DOUBLE-WHAM!!! Does that seem fair and reasonable?"

How many of you parents have seen a pay cut in the real value of your income? I wouldn't be surprised if that's the majority of parents - the healthcare issue this nation is facing affects us all.

The health benefits provided to government workers like teachers, along with retirement, and job security are probably better than many of you get from your employers!

Teacher's are supposed to be serving the public, not the other way around!


TM70 is unwilling to do anything else other than maintain the status quo and get her raise! The teachers union DOES NOT SUPPORT THE KIDS. If they did they'd be more focused on ensuring the kids get the books and resources they need instead of focusing on their own pay!

TM70 supports the teacher's union - not the parents and not the kids! TM70 is:

Unwilling to give up tenure which does nothing but damage education through lack of choice and lack of competition. Lack of ability to pay more to the best and brightest because the budget has to carry the bottom 10%.

Unwilling to commit to higher educational performance of the kids in exchange for higher pay.

Unwilling to support vouchers, competition, and a system that would help the kids!

Unwilling to support lower cost higher performance charter/magnet schools for the kids! And a resulting improvement in student to teach ratios in public schools.

Unwilling to support parents to help change a broken educational system!

Unwilling to support the students to ensure they get a better education.


They are willing to strike! (The hell with the kids! - ME, ME, ME, first, foremost and always)

They are willing to use veiled threats of non-performance! (You get what you pay for...)

They are willing to use your kids (their students) as pawns to extort higher pay while making no concessions regarding the elimination of tenure - not even for the bottom 10% of teachers!


PARENTS UNITE BEHIND THE SUPPORT THE KIDS CAMPAIGN!

DEMAND:
- school vouchers,
- school choice for kids,
- charter / magnet schools,
- pay for performance,
- elimination of a "free ride" - tenure
- elimination of the bottom 10% of teachers
- ability to hire and pay bonuses (based on performance) to the best and brightest teachers

THE TEACHER'S UNION IS AGAINST:
- Supporting the Kids - (they'd rather get their raise than see the kids get the books they need)
- education reform
- the best school choice for kids
- lower cost better performance charter schools
- pay for performance
- the best and the brightest

THE TEACHER'S UNION STANDS FOR:
- mediocrity, not meritocracy
- monopoly power, and lack of choice, not competition and choice
- the status quo, not improvement
- mediocre performance, not excellence (through competition)
- the average, not the best and the brightest
- no (school) choice for kids
- extortion, blackmail, any tactic to take money from the kids and put it in their pocket
- tenure, which creates mediocrity, lack of competition, keep the 10% of WORST TEACHERS in the educational system for decades!


They have no shame, they stand on the backs of the children to play out their agenda. They brainwash the kids by influencing them about adult issues that kids can't possibly understand by wearing clothing to school to support their position! What an outrage!

Our kids are there to get an education, not to be pawns in a salary debate and be influenced and brainwashed into supporting a teacher's political opinion!

We need to educate our kids on what those shirts mean! It means less for you little Johnny and more for the teachers!


THE TEACHERS ARE NOT THE PROGRAM, THEY ARE THE TEACHERS.

A program entails numerous resources, not a single resource. I should know, I've been a program manager and have managed global programs responsible for generating billions in revenue.

QUOTE(gottasmile @ Feb 3 2007, 11:28 AM) View Post
Yes, there are some bad teachers, but there are "bad workers" in every job field.


The difference is that in the private sector, a "bad worker" will be let go. Those don't last very long 3-6 months tops. Even very good/excellent workers are let go.

In the teaching profession, a tenured "bad worker" is impossible to get rid of, and once you reach tenure, what's the incentive to perform?

In the private sector we have the carrot (higher pay) and the stick (getting laid off) both work in concert to achieve the best performance possible.

In the public sector, the carrot is supposed to be (job security, benefits, and benevolence in serving the public, doing a public good). Unfortunately, workers in that sector quickly take for granted those things because they have them, and focus on the pay - so there is no carrot for those workers because the teacher's union prohibit excellent teachers from getting more compensation and bad/mediocre teachers from being laid off.

SUPPORT THE KIDS!

SUPPORT YOUR KIDS!

SUPPORT OUR KIDS!

SUPPORT IMPROVEMENT IN EDUCATION!

SUPPORT EDUCATION REFORM!


#122 TM70

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 06:36 AM

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#123 tgianco

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:08 AM

Color me amazed. Do you really think you should be paid like a software engineer? Do you think professionals in private industry don't have to continue their education to get more pay or, more to the point, keep their jobs when the next generation comes along? How secure do you think a lot of folks who post here that work at Intel feel about their jobs?

I was the top guy for my firm in the local office for 2006, but, if my performance falls off for three straight months, I am gone. If you had a bad semester, are you gone?

I agree in general that teachers, especially those just starting out, deserve more pay. I have also seen older teachers that have become jaded (like my aunt) hang around, in spite of the fact they know longer liked their job or the kids, to get a better retirement and better COLAs.
In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.

#124 TM70

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 08:19 AM

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#125 mylo

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 08:23 AM

Wait, so they do get tenure after 2 years?

QUOTE(TM70 @ Feb 5 2007, 08:19 AM) View Post
If the grass is so dang green, then jump over to the other side.

Does the same apply to being a Software Engineer? If it's so dang great, start programming!
"Ah, yes, those Gucci extremists and their Prada jihad!" --ducky

#126 tgianco

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE(TM70 @ Feb 5 2007, 08:19 AM) View Post
Teachers are constantly taking courses to stay on top of the latest and greatest. It's part of the renewal process for our credentials. Just thought I'd let you know that. We don't just sit behind the big desk... It's not an option. No continuing education. No credential renewal. And, another thing, administrators in ALL districts have TWO years, that's TWO years, to weed out poor teachers. During the first TWO years of a teacher's career in a new district, you can be let go for ANYTHING. I've seen it happen. If your can't evaluate a teacher in TWO years, then maybe it's an administrative problem. If a teacher moves to another district then the "tenure" process starts ALL OVER AGAIN. It happened to me. A few years in a district, then a move, and it starts all over again. TWo years on probarion. All part of the game.

We all get that YOU have to continually educate yourself, but so do WE in private industry. If we don't adapt to change, to new technologies and to new regulations, we are not given two years (90 days if we are lucky). If we become too expensive to our company or a non-producing entity, we are let go, gone, canned. With private industry in CA, you can be let go for any reason at any time, and you can quit likewise.

Again, I'm not bagging on teachers (even though you choose to take it that way), but you are coming here looking for sympathy on issues that we all deal with as well.

As far as your invitation to become a teacher, at this point with a young family, it's not an option to take a couple of years to get my credential to go back to the start. If I was an undergraduate, it would be a very attractive option.

However, since I did at one point start the credential program at CND-Belmot before moving to Folsom, I can tell you that the first thing they said at the Orientation for the graduate program was to congratulate ALL the credential candidates because there was a job waiting for them (not exagerrating, that's what they said).


In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.

#127 Dave Burrell

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:32 AM

QUOTE(TM70 @ Feb 5 2007, 08:19 AM) View Post
administrators in ALL districts have TWO years, that's TWO years, to weed out poor teachers. During the first TWO years of a teacher's career in a new district, you can be let go for ANYTHING. I've seen it happen. If your can't evaluate a teacher in TWO years, then maybe it's an administrative problem. If a teacher moves to another district then the "tenure" process starts ALL OVER AGAIN. It happened to me. A few years in a district, then a move, and it starts all over again. TWo years on probarion. All part of the game.



Does that mean after two years teachers are no longer reviewed and evaluated? (if they stay at the same school)


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#128 Dave Burrell

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:34 AM

QUOTE(mylo @ Feb 5 2007, 08:23 AM) View Post
Wait, so they do get tenure after 2 years?
Does the same apply to being a Software Engineer? If it's so dang great, start programming!



I am an engineer, but now I'm thinking I would like to receive a brain surgeons salary... unfortunately I'm not in a union.

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#129 Orangetj

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:48 AM

Given that I grew up with two teaching parents, I almost can't believe that I'm arguing "the other side" but I just can't see where the dollars being discussed here are worth the energy and the threat of a strike on the side of the teachers. What are we talking about here, $100 a month? Is that really worth striking over? It seems to me that many unions have become a grotesque charicature of what they once were. Once upon a time, union laborers/workers united over unsafe working conditions and worker exploitation. Now, it seems, they're potentially willing to strike over a couple of hundred dollars in salary or an increase in benefit premiums or copayments (witness the county worker strikes of last year). This just "strikes" me as ridiculous.

I'll agree that starting teachers don't get paid in line with the highest paid professionals - software engineers, doctors, lawyers, high tech sales people. They do, however, get paid more than many other professions requiring equivalent or greater education - architects, social workers, counselors, scientists, etc. Heck, my own sister holds a PhD and works as an instructor at a public university earning barely over $40K. At the current salaries, a great many college students decide to pursue this career and there is real competition for the available positions. This would tend to indicate that the salary, as well as the benefits and intangible rewards of the job are in fact well in line with the market.

#130 Orangetj

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:53 AM

QUOTE(TM70 @ Feb 5 2007, 08:19 AM) View Post
During the first TWO years of a teacher's career in a new district, you can be let go for ANYTHING.


In virtually all non-public employment, the period during which an employee can be let go for any reason or no reason (i.e. at will employment) is typically the first 50 years or until retirement, whichever occurs last.

#131 banana

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:01 AM

ARE YOU FOR REAL?????

A teacher can get tenure after ONLY 2 YEARS????

Good God! The calcification of the arteries that are our educational system are worse than I could have possibly imagined!

As for remaining educated and taking classes, some of the software and hardware engineers on our team just went for the RedHat certification, Cisco recertification, and a host of other certifications, and they all have Masters and PhDs! That doesn't stop in just about any profession.

Let me get this straight, you get 1/2 of June off, ALL of July off, and 1/2 of August off, during which you choose to take classes. We can only dream of having 2 months off to take classes.

We take our classes and training after a full day's work which is longer than yours! For a decade my day began at 5am, and I didn't get home until 11pm M-F and worked or took classes on weekends. So please don't come here looking for sympathy.

I just completed my corporate finance recertification required for all employees here, and I don't even work in finance!

How many people here have been with their employers 2yrs and have TENURE!!!!?????

I swear, I am DEFINITELY going into the educational system to teach when I retire from corporate america and once I get tenure I am going to use the teaching platform to speak out against the teacher's union and tenure.



#132 cw68

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:14 AM

QUOTE(banana @ Feb 5 2007, 11:01 AM) View Post
I swear, I am DEFINITELY going into the educational system to teach when I retire from corporate america and once I get tenure I am going to use the teaching platform to speak out against the teacher's union and tenure.

Oh the irony. Love irony!

#133 JMH

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:27 AM

TM70, I am confused. You led us to believe that tenure was a myth. Are you now saying that you are 'tenured' after two years? You also stated above, "When I was teaching...", are you not currently teaching? You made us all believe you were posting during recess...

What is your real agenda here?

#134 mylo

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:31 AM

I am very confused.
"Ah, yes, those Gucci extremists and their Prada jihad!" --ducky

#135 cw68

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE(mylo @ Feb 5 2007, 11:31 AM) View Post
I am very confused.

and not just by this topic. wink.gif




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