158 replies to this topic

[ducky]

I personally hope it doesn't happen at all....

How about if the train only started at, say, Oak Avenue Parkway or Creekside and went down East Bidwell to 50 or, later, S50, and to get to Sutter St. was bus or streetcar only as Chad has depicted above?    No tracks being used behind residential and no whistles.

Would you still be opposed?

[FolsomEJ]

What does a train do that a bus doesn't?

 

I see a bus as more versatile, being able to take alternate routes when required.  It is also much easier to add capacity, lengthen routes or otherwise scale.

[cw68]

 

Yes, and it should be extended to any new S50 development too.  Otherwise, the intersection of Iron Point and E Bidwell will only get much worse

 

S50 provides us with an excellent opportunity to modernize our city and adopt to the future, instead of building upon past theories. Our fearless leaders have already missed a great opportunity to diversify our water sources without having the city to pay (having the developers/land owners NOT rely on Folsom Lake) and we're on track to miss developing a 21 Century-style addition to our city.

 

Young people do not travel (or live) the way that those older than them do. They want and desire different things. There is tons and tons of research done that supports the fact that millennials do not like to drive as much as older people do and much prefer transportation alternatives -- AND that this trend is very likely to persist. The habits of 40-year olds is different than 60-year olds, too.

 

Many don't understand how this could be the case, but there are many hurdles and alternatives available now that once weren't. Drivers license restrictions have changed what turning 16 means compared to when we were young. Back in the day, turn 16, here's your license! Go load up 10 people in your car and go to town! Now, graduated driving laws (49 states have them) means it takes longer and is more expensive to get your license and places restrictions upon new drivers that gradually go away. This has led to reduced numbers of licensed drivers and their habits have permanently changed. 

 

Personal technology means that you don't have to get in your car and drive to see someone in order to interact. Social media, Skyping, smart phones and apps that map routes for people and let them know when the next train/bus is arriving - among others - all make convenient alternatives and make public transportation easy to use. ZipCar, bike-sharing, Uber, and the like make having your own car 24/7 less necessary.

 

And then there's money. Fuel prices are significantly higher, as well as auto prices, for young people now. Stricter DUI laws rightly influence their (and our) habits and increase use of public transportation or carpooling. Even the cost of a smart phone, which can easily be $1k+ year, influences their purchases. What 16 to 25-year old would give up their smart phone in order to have their own car? Ummmm, probably none.

 

We can't ignore these facts and shouldn't continue to build Folsom based upon the original suburban desires of June and Ward Cleaver. We want Folsom to be thriving and desirable, not stagnant and out-of-touch. It's time to look forward.

[Chad Vander Veen]

VOLUNTEERS NEEDED! Can you spare two hours this weekend? I'm looking for volunteers to stand at one of Folsom's intersections this weekend with one of my campaign signs. I'll be out there as well. If you can do Saturday and/or Sunday please let me know.

[supermom]

What does a train do that a bus doesn't?

 

I see a bus as more versatile, being able to take alternate routes when required.  It is also much easier to add capacity, lengthen routes or otherwise scale.

A train can be an unmanned operation.

[FolsomEJ]

A train can be an unmanned operation.

 

Really?  Where are there unmanned trains in urban environments?

[4thgenFolsomite]

lightrail is electric.  haven't seen an electric bus yet.

[supermom]

Dave:

 

A bit out of my area of expertise here, but my understanding is that the route Chad proposed would not be able to operate as a true streetcar, which I assume is what your experienced in Amsterdam. The problem is not the train but the volume and speed of traffic on the crossing streets. Because the train would not be operating within the street, it would not be able to operate without train-specific traffic controls. Think of how Sac LRT operates. In downtown Sac it operates within the streets as a streetcar with no additional crossing controls beyond signal priority. But as soon as it leaves the downtown streets, it runs in a protected corridor with traffic controlled at every crossing. You just can't take a train across a high-speed (45 mph +) four- or six-lane arterial without actively controlling the traffic.

 

For the record, I too, would love to see a train operating in Folsom on a regular basis. But I'm just not convinced it could pencil out.  And I do think getting later service on the Gold line to Folsom, and 15-minute headways should probably be a higher priority.  But that's a really interesting problem because Folsom has always jealously guarded control of its transit funding (as have Elk Grove, Roseville and Yolo County), so I don't see Folsom joining RT any time soon. If we did, we would get later service and probably get 15-minute headways sooner, but might lose the local bus routes, or end up with even more limited ones.  Also, I think  there is some local resistance to later trains due to perceived crime problems associated with late night service, which makes the council unlikely to want to spend the extra money for that service.  But it really does limit the usefulness of light rail in Folsom to basically supporting commuting by state workers.

This is a postive. It would force traffic to slow down and go the posted speed limit. No one likes the discomfort and stomach lurch of being THAT car that has his rear sticking out over an active train rail at a light in busy traffic. People become more cautious and slow drivers when driving through active rail intersections daily.

[FolsomEJ]

What problem(s) are we solving here?  If we need point-to-point transportation, let's define WHAT is needed.  Then let's decide HOW to solve it.  Then we can decide pros/cons to each option.

 

Drawing a line on a map is interesting, but doesn't necessarily mean we had a gap in transportation options.

[supermom]

 

Really?  Where are there unmanned trains in urban environments?

In the same place there are unmanned driven cars. Development. Better fail-safes, less operator error, costs of manpower significantly reduced, and annual overhead costs of insuranced and maintenance costs become vehicle-driven concerns only versus : lawsuits, workers compensation, health insurance, monetary compensation for labor, insurance for incompetence or willful destruction/civil suits. Take the human out of the picture and running a train becomes a breeze.

[mrdavex]

 

Really?  Where are there unmanned trains in urban environments?

 There certainly are!

 

Best example is the Skytrain in Vancouver, BC: http://www.translink...s/SkyTrain.aspx  

 

Other smaller metro systems include:

 

Las Vegas Monorail: http://www.lvmonorail.com/

 

JFK AirTrain: http://www.panynj.go...k-airtrain.html

 

Miami Metromover: http://www.miamidade.../metromover.asp

 

Detroit Peoplemover: http://www.thepeople...THERE!.id.2.htm

 

Plus many more outside North America: http://en.wikipedia....s#North_America

 

However, such a system requires grade-separated crossings to avoid any chance of a vehicle-train accident.

[supermom]

I have to say i was thinking more like an old fashioned trolley with computerized controls rather than a 'sky train' or bullet train. Something sort of more homey and gold miner era looking. Lol.

[mrdavex]

lightrail is electric.  haven't seen an electric bus yet.

 

There are electric buses, known as trolley buses and have been around a while. You can find them close by in San Francisco, but they are also in Seattle, Philadelphia, and Vancouver.  Battery and EV technology has been improving too, so we will likely see more battery operated buses that have no need for overhead wires.

 

Conversely, there are also diesel-powered light rail vehicles, known as Diesel Multiple Units.  They are used in the Sprinter line in San Diego and will be also used  for the Sonoma-Marin Area Rapid Transit (http://en.wikipedia....ea_Rail_Transit).  The SMART system is similar to what Chad is proposing, as it runs over existing abandoned railroad tracks.

[tony]

 

Chad has said that he's not opposed to a bus sytem.

 

Tony estimated $60million to get the train up and running. I don't think it will happen any time soon.

 

It was an estimate based on costs from a couple of other recent systems. The major costs are right of way, track, structures, stations, road crossings, electrification and vehicles. Since we have most of the right of way and track, and assuming the existing bridges are serviceable, if they could come up with inexpensive self-propelled vehicles (i.e., no electrification), the total cost might come in significantly less.

 

BTW, the Transit Master Plan for Sof50 does include a "transit corridor" which is intended to accommodate fixed route bus or BRT service.

 

Also, there was a study done on extending light rail to El Dorado Hills, which I believe looked at several routes through Folsom, one of them being the existing SPTC following the existing track from the HD to Sof50 and beyond. Other alignments considered were down Blue Ravine, down Iron Point and parallel to and south of 50.  I can't find the study on line, but it might be very useful.

 

Finally, for those adamantly opposed to a train/streetcar in the existing rail corridor along Blue Ravine, presumably because of the noise, my experience living within 500-ft of the Natoma-Folsom Blvd. crossing for 5 years (and 1000 ft from two crossings and less than 500 feet from the nearest point on the tracks for another 5 years) is that the train noise (train whistle and crossing gates) very quickly fades into the background, and is downright pleasant compared to the constant traffic noise (particularly from motorcycles and diesel pickups).  Remember, the train only goes by four times and hour. Traffic is 20-hours a day, and rolls into the other four most of the time.

[cw68]

(Threadjack in progress... Tony, what road diet is being proposed for East Bidwell? Do you have a link?)