159 replies to this topic

[tessieca]

Actually, the city and district have a pretty decent working relationship and have struggled together over what to do to maintain safety and keep the peace. I don't hear a lot of blaming going on. The site is too small for the number of kids and traffic. That's a bottom line fact.

Years ago, when a new site was needed for a high school, certain city and chamber members decided that Folsom should be a one-high-school town. This site was supposed to accommodate that. That was before the realization hit that there were just too many kids to attend only one high school.

Stevethedad is correct that the current site was not built for 2500 kids, 2900, or the 4000 who might eventually attend before the new one opens. It was built for 1800, and the parking might even accommodate that many. We may never know. The new high school is expected to open fall, 2006 (with a joint city/district partnership, by the way). That may be one of the best ways to help to alleviate traffic.

In the meantime, I think the city and district are continuing meetings on a regular basis to work out mutual concerns; thus, the caution lights near Sutter Middle School. Hey, nobody's perfect, but we all try our best.

[folsomBlondie]

Then new high school by Empire Ranch will be opened in 2006, right?

[parklady]

Stevethedad -
Yes, I agree that it remains in limbo between the city and the school district, but it is up us the taxpayers to make them accountable. Just wait when the first major injury or fatality occurs and then you'll see some action and then the dollars suddenly become "available." It's kind of like arguing for a stop light at an intersection. Until there have been fatalities, there's no justification. Sad but true. By the way, I don't mean to appear uninformed, but since it's been two years since I had a student at the high school, what is going on with the drive in entrance off Grover? It used to be we would drive in; we were then forced to turn left and loop into the back of the campus and then drop off and horseshoe back out onto Iron Point. It took a little extra time, but it was available. On the days when I simply did not have the time to go into the school, I dropped my son off farther down on Grover to walk to the cross walk. They usually had teachers assisting with the crossing. Do they not do this anymore?

[Steve Heard]

Parklady

My most recent experiences were in October, and at that time, there were police present, but no teachers.

During summer school, the vice principal actually stood at the entrance to block parents from turning in, and several times there were police cars blocking the entrance closer to Prairie City.

I hope it doesn't take a fatality before anything is done to change things. I know the likelihood of a fatality increases if we have more kids walking, or being dropped of by Safeway.

[tony]

Steve: I'll take my chances on a real judge. You say that signals were not designed for bikes. That's exactly my point. By law, they should be, as buikes are treated as vehicles, witih all the rights and responsibilities that entails. Building fully-actuated signals without detectors that detect bikes is denying legal users of the road safe access to that road. BTW, motorcyclists sometimes have the same problem, but much less frequently. According to your logic, it would be OK to have signals that would only detect vehicles with four wheels, or only those weighing more than 2000 lbs., or perhaps, only putting detectors in two lanes on a 4-lane road; if you happen to stop in the lane without detectorrs, you'll just have to wait for a car in the other one, or get out and go push the ped button. That is exactly what you're suggesting bicyclists do.

Two further flaws in your judicial opinion. Why would the law treat me differently if it was my first time through teh intersection or not? It's either illegal or it isn't, right? Either the signal is defective or it isn't.

Finally, your sugggestion to just use the ped crossing (which is, as you point out, a potential legal option for cyclists) doesn't work either, because many intersections have cross walks on only threee legs, so if you happen to come up to the leg without a ped button, you now have no options.

Steve, I deal with this every day. At the intersections I frequently pass through, I know whether teh detection works or not. For those I don't use daily, it is very difficult to remember. What if motorists had to remember where a small loop of embedded wire was in every lane of every intersection, and whether or not that loop was sensitive enough to pick them up. And if it wasn't, they'd have to get out of their cars, walk across one or more lanes of traffic and push a button. That's what cyclists have had to deal with since the introduction of the fully-actuated signal about 15 years ago, because the engineers who came up with the idea used the same thought process you do. Not incidentally, those engineers are finally coming around: the 2003 version of teh FHWA Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices (the bible and the law for traffic engineers) now requiers that traffic signals be set to detect bicycles, and that teh signal timing be adjusted to allow adequate time for cyclists to clear the intersection before the light changes (another huge safety issue for cyclists, especially in Folsom). Rumor has it the city will be starting to folllow this directino in the very near future.

[tessieca]

Parklady: the turnaround is still there and actually was made easier (shorter). Instead of winding around the whole visitor parking area, you can now turn around at the beginning of it. There's also an additional right-turn only exit to Iron Point from that area. Most still don't use it. My kid has a zero period, so there's not much traffic when dropping off. It's easy to go through the parking lot. I have not seen any staff out directing kids/cars. They have crossing guards at Natoma Station Elementary though.

[Steve Heard]

Tony

My reply was partially tongue-in-cheek, meant to poke fun at you breaking the law (as you said, it hasn't been tested in court) while admonishing parents for doing the same. I wonder if a ticketed parent would win in court. I know that this is a serious matter, however.

Tessieca

Your experiences are more recent than mine, so I can't speak directly to them, except that the parking lot exit to Iron Point is the one that I've seen blocked by police cars on several ocassions.

I am all for making the city safer for everyone.

I don't doubt that it's easier, with less traffic, when you drop your child off for 0 period. Most kids don't have that option, so their parents have different experiences.

[OctoberLily]

Tony, you obviously don't have children if you think it's okey to let them walk 2 miles in the RAIN!

The reason why I drive my kids when it rains is because I have three of them. I'd rather not have them all come home with the flu and then have to miss a week of school. I love my kids dearly but a week with them at home AND sick makes driving them to school a pretty good idea when it rains.

It's a wierd coincidence that yesterday as I was driving up Iron Point and saw a bicyclist racing up the sidewalk on Iron Point by Willow Springs apartments. The light turned green for my left turn on McAdoo when I made my left turn and had to abruptly stop because the bicyclist decided not to stop and instead sped right in front of the vehicles to cross McAdoo and Iron Point to make his left turn. WHAT A CRAZY MAN! He could've gotten killed! He's brave because he didn't even look to see a car coming right at him.

[tony]

Octoberlily: Yes I do have children, but not of school age yet. Last time I checked, the flu was a virus you got from other people, not from the rain. Properly equipped high school students are certainly capable of walking a mile or 2 to school in the rain and staying dry. Today would be an exception, as would days with thunderstorms, but there are very few such days in Sacramento.

You gave a very good example of bad and dangerous bicycle riding. In fact, I'll take it as a "teachable moment". What you described is one of the reasons why riding on the sidewalk is such a bad idea: 50% of the time you are riding on the wrong side of the street, and when you do (even if you stop at intersections like you are supposed to), you put yourself in danger by approacing iontersections from an unexpected direction, one where motorists are much less likely to see you. The cyclist you saw was probably much more stupid than brave, and likely was unaware of just how dangerous wrong way riding is.

I do find it very interesting that whenver bicycling comes up as a topic, everyone seems to feel the need to describe every bad bicyclists they've seen (although, to be fair, that is the topic of this thread). If I wrote in a obut every dangerous, inconsiderate driver I encountered while bicycling, I'd never have time to ride. That said, I guess it's a clear indication that cyclists have an image problem, brought on, no doubt, by the misbehavior of many cyclists. Some of us are working on that, but it's a long hill to climb, so to speak.

[parklady]

Sorry to shift the attention from the high school, but I'm wondering if anyone has had any success in drawing actual police patrol to areas where there is excessive speeding or racing in their neighborhoods. It seems when you report anything, their answer is the speed trailer, which in my opinion does NOTHING. OK, maybe the first time it builds a fleeting awareness of speed for those regulars in the neighborhood, but it does NOTHING to stop the recurrence. A real officer out there with a radar gun, or stopping people, warnings or even writing tickets is the only way any of this nonsense is going to stop. The reason why there is so much speeding in Folsom is that people KNOW they can get away with it. There's hardly ever any police presence on the streets The neighborhoods particularly near the high school are lacking in police presence. And yes, I know, you'll say they're stretched thin, but even on watch drivebys are helpful. Many neighborhoods don't even seem to be on a regular beat for watch. I feel like I've moved to cowboy town where the outlaws are winning over the sheriff!

[forumreader]

As explained to me by Folsom's traffic seargent, often police officers' hands are tied when it comes to speed enforcement, due to the 85th percentile rule.

As I understand it, speed limits are set at the 85th percentile of free-flowing traffic under favorable conditions. This 85th percentile is determined by periodic traffic surveys (every 5 yrs.?). -- Sounds a little like the wolf guarding the chicken coop!

Speeding tickets are often easily contested in court if the driver was traveling within 5 mph of the 85th percentile, under good road conditions, and was not otherwise driving unsafely.

Tony - if you're reading this, help me out. I believe you are more knowledgeable on this subject. Thanks.

[parklady]

Oh, if only the majority of Folsom drivers were only driving 5 miles over the speed limit!!! Let's get real, it's more like 50%+ over the speed limit - If the street is posted at 45 mph - a lot of people are driving 65 mph or more on our major arteries. As for the residential streets at 25 mph, I'd be hard pressed to find anyone on my street that doesn't drive 40! Check out Highway 50 with its standard highway limit of 65 mph - most drive 85+ - many closer to 100! That's why this area has some of the most dangerous highways - long before the congestion, people still felt it was OK to drive 80-100 mph - lots of room, nobody looking. And there's never been much CHP crackdown. Again - cowboy law! Other areas you don't have this leniency. Folsom PD could make a good haul on traffic tickets if it pursued it. Other towns do and they have more control over the safety of their streets.

[folsomBlondie]

I don't know about most people going 85 mph on Hwy 50. I go to work around 5:30 am everyday and sure don't see that. I would say 30% of the drivers are going 80 mph in the fast lane. I rarely see people going anything close to 100 mph. Sorry Parklady. I do observe everyday.

The only times that I drove 90 mph were during the times that I used to go to Orange County to visit family, using Interstate 5, but I don't do that anymore.

[tony]

parklady: You hit the nail on the head. There is no fear of getting a ticket in Folsom, or almost anywhere else in California.

As for the 85th percentile. forum reader is right, with some exceptions. Actually, the law says that the speed limit whall be set based on an engineering and traffic study (survey?, can't remember which), but the intrerpretation, both by traffic engineers and the courts, has typically been that the 85th percentil rules. That said, the (prima facie) speed limit on residential streets (meeting a certain residential density requirement, which most residential streets do) is 25 mph, period, and is enforcible. It's a matter of resources and will, of which I'm not convinced the city really has either. Nobody wants to be the bad guy.

[Steve Heard]

I just had a brainstorm (don't laugh, it can happen).

How about a campaign to slow down Folsom?

We could petition the police, write to newspapers, our representatives, TV news, maybe stage picket street corners (Iron Point and Prairie City, Blue Ravine and Prairie City,and others) maybe post signs, etc.

We could call it, 'Slow Down Folsom', or 'Folsom's Not in a Hurry', or 'Safe Folsom', something like that.

Whatchy'all think?