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Folsom Ranks As Best Suburb


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#31 Steve Heard

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 09:32 AM

I think the issue is that when you say no primarily black or Latino town is safe or has good schools, it makes it sound like the residents being black or Latino is the cause of the lack of safety/poor schools. It might actually be that poverty is the cause of the lack of safety/poor schools, and it just happens that blacks and Latinos are disproportionately poor. Then we can argue--or better yet, look for research--on why that's the case. I imagine the answer is complicated.

 

My point exactly.


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#32 Rich_T

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 09:41 AM

I think the issue is that when you say no primarily black or Latino town is safe or has good schools, it makes it sound like the residents being black or Latino is the cause of the lack of safety/poor schools. It might actually be that poverty is the cause of the lack of safety/poor schools, and it just happens that blacks and Latinos are disproportionately poor. Then we can argue--or better yet, look for research--on why that's the case. I imagine the answer is complicated.

 

That's the risk I have to take.  I can't help what conclusions people will make about the "why".  I just state the reality of the "what".  And the "what" is that if people are looking for "great schools", they won't be looking in a heavily black or Latino area.  Asking why there are no great schools there is to go one level deeper.  I happen to reject the explanation that the reason is poverty, because Asians disprove it; I think that poverty and the lack of great schools are both symptoms of another root cause, which I wrote about in an earlier post.  I won't deny that it's complicated. 

 

I think an even greater risk is that unreflective minds will jump to the conclusion that individual black people are being belittled by such descriptions.  Not so.   The standard reaction is probably "what's the point?  what good can it do to point these things out?"  My answer is that we should stop being afraid to describe reality in dispassionate terms.



#33 bordercolliefan

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 10:08 AM

My answer is that we should stop being afraid to describe reality in dispassionate terms.


In this sentiment, I will wholeheartedly join you. No good comes from hiding from the facts... in any area of human existence. (Actually maybe that's not entirely true...maybe a little self-deception is healthy at times, but that's a digression...)

On the more specific issue here, I think we also need to be open to the possibility that poverty creates culture... thus, what may look like negative cultural choices (lack of emphasis on academics or ???) may actually be the product of multi-generational struggling against poverty and a pervasive hopelessness about whether it's possible to get ahead). This is, of course, just postulating... sounds like at least we can agree, it's complicated.

#34 Steve Heard

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 10:09 AM

 

  I happen to reject the explanation that the reason is poverty, because Asians disprove it; I think that poverty and the lack of great schools are both symptoms of another root cause, which I wrote about in an earlier post.  I won't deny that it's complicated.

 

If it is complicated, can poverty be part of it? I think poverty, legacy, expectations, societal pressures, fear, racism, ignorance, and hopelessness are among the other factors.

 

I cite expectations because there was a study once about what behaviors teachers expected of their students and how they treated students because of those expectations.

 

Teachers admitted that they expected Asian students to study and want to be challenged with more complicated work, so they gave them such, as well as more of their attention. They felt it was time well-spent and the Asian kids proved them right.

 

They expected black and Latino students to be disinterested in school and disruptive in class. They gave them less time and less challenging work and the black and Latino students proved them right.

 

Most interesting was the fact that the teachers had these high expectations of Asian kids without knowing anything about them other than that they were Asian. They didn't know, for example, that the Korean kids were under-achieving second class citizens in Japan, where they were expected to be the disinterested ones and rose or sunk to that expectation.


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#35 Rich_T

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 10:16 AM

In this sentiment, I will wholeheartedly join you. No good comes from hiding from the facts... in any area of human existence. (Actually maybe that's not entirely true...maybe a little self-deception is healthy at times, but that's a digression...)

On the more specific issue here, I think we also need to be open to the possibility that poverty creates culture... thus, what may look like negative cultural choices (lack of emphasis on academics or ???) may actually be the product of multi-generational struggling against poverty and a pervasive hopelessness about whether it's possible to get ahead). This is, of course, just postulating... sounds like at least we can agree, it's complicated.

 

I won't dismiss that possibility.  It's part of the complex situation.



 

If it is complicated, can poverty be part of it? I think poverty, legacy, expectations, societal pressures, fear, racism, ignorance, and hopelessness are among the other factors.

 

I cite expectations because there was a study once about what behaviors teachers expected of their students and how they treated students because of those expectations.

 

Teachers admitted that they expected Asian students to study and want to be challenged with more complicated work, so they gave them such, as well as more of their attention. They felt it was time well-spent and the Asian kids proved them right.

 

They expected black and Latino students to be disinterested in school and disruptive in class. They gave them less time and less challenging work and the black and Latino students proved them right.

 

Most interesting was the fact that the teachers had these high expectations of Asian kids without knowing anything about them other than that they were Asian. They didn't know, for example, that the Korean kids were under-achieving second class citizens in Japan, where they were expected to be the disinterested ones and rose or sunk to that expectation.

 

Sure, that's all part of the mix, in my opinion.  But the "chicken-and-egg" thing of expectations and behavior can only be broken by people themselves, who force others to change their expectations.  And let's not forget that it's the expectations of parents, not teachers, that matter most.

 

My personal opinion is that there is some hard-to-pinpoint threshold of problematic kids that makes the school experience fail for everyone involved, and that the threshold has been reached in most poor black neighborhoods.  Even if it's 15% of kids who are disruptive, then the other 85% cannot have a decent learning environment.   Whereas if it were only 5%, probably the other 95% could overcome it.  That's my theory, anyhow.



#36 Steve Heard

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:07 AM

 

And let's not forget that it's the expectations of parents, not teachers, that matter most.

 

My personal opinion is that there is some hard-to-pinpoint threshold of problematic kids that makes the school experience fail for everyone involved, and that the threshold has been reached in most poor black neighborhoods.  Even if it's 15% of kids who are disruptive, then the other 85% cannot have a decent learning environment.   Whereas if it were only 5%, probably the other 95% could overcome it.  That's my theory, anyhow.

 

Regarding expectations, it's not just the teachers and parents, but also their peers and society in general.

 

Regarding the 'problematic' kids, I think there is a lot of pressure to conform to being problematic. It's just not cool to be smart and obedient.

 

My nephew was in the GATE program down in Elk Grove. At about 12, he started to get teased, being called 'smart boy' because he was smart. His so-called friends were not, and he hung out with the wannabe thug crowd. It wasn't long before he started messing up in school so he could get kicked out of GATE and join his friends and earn their respect for being stupid. He got his F's and was accepted among the cool kids.

 

I counseled him as best I could, and I reached out to his dad (my former brother in law) about it and reminded him how tough the world can be for the unprepared and uneducated.

 

He said, "I don't have a college degree, and I'm doin' allright."  He was a foreman at a dairy and was later down-sized out of a job.

 

His son went on to drop out of high school, join a gang, did prison time for committing a felony, and is now 28, unemployed, tattoo'd all over, and pretty down because no one will give him a chance.

 

In his case, it was a combination of peer pressure and parental expectations, and of course, his own choices.


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#37 Rich_T

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:24 AM

 

Regarding expectations, it's not just the teachers and parents, but also their peers and society in general.

 

Regarding the 'problematic' kids, I think there is a lot of pressure to conform to being problematic. It's just not cool to be smart and obedient.

 

My nephew was in the GATE program down in Elk Grove. At about 12, he started to get teased, being called 'smart boy' because he was smart. His so-called friends were not, and he hung out with the wannabe thug crowd. It wasn't long before he started messing up in school so he could get kicked out of GATE and join his friends and earn their respect for being stupid. He got his F's and was accepted among the cool kids.

 

I counseled him as best I could, and I reached out to his dad (my former brother in law) about it and reminded him how tough the world can be for the unprepared and uneducated.

 

He said, "I don't have a college degree, and I'm doin' allright."  He was a foreman at a dairy and was later down-sized out of a job.

 

His son went on to drop out of high school, join a gang, did prison time for committing a felony, and is now 28, unemployed, tattoo'd all over, and pretty down because no one will give him a chance.

 

In his case, it was a combination of peer pressure and parental expectations, and of course, his own choices.

 

That all rings very true to what I've observed from afar, by reading such accounts.

 

And until that can be overcome, the "best places to live" will continue to look like they do.



#38 TruthSeeker

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:52 AM

 

I happen to reject the explanation that the reason is poverty, because Asians disprove it.

 

 

I'm interested in hearing how poor Asians (not wealthy ones) are disproving it, and how poverty is not a reason at all?


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#39 Rich_T

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:04 PM

 

I'm interested in hearing how poor Asians (not wealthy ones) are disproving it, and how poverty is not a reason at all?

 

No, you're not, but I'll tell you anyway.  Asian families (see my earlier post about different groups of "Asians") who move here without much money manage to send their kids to college to get good careers within one generation.  Hence their relative poverty is overcome by their children.  A focus on education and good behavior trumps poverty.  And I didn't say poverty is not one factor among others for the black ghetto predicament.  I said it's not the root cause; it's a reinforcing factor in the absence of an Asian-style community focus.



#40 Like2Bike

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 08:57 PM

Hi All,

 

I'm planning on moving my family to Folsom sometime this year. Moving from Modesto area.

 

Main reason is the trail system among other things of course. It's a bike riders paradise.

 

Will try to contribute to the forum when I can. Glad I stumbled onto this place!



#41 nomad

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 09:06 PM

Congrats on getting out of Modesto! The only places that you could have done worse are Stockton and Fresno so well done on choosing Folsom!



#42 Carl G

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 08:21 AM

Welcome Like2Bike!



#43 SacKen

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 12:05 PM

 

I'm having trouble understanding your reaction.  My point was that "safety" and "good schools" are the same as saying "not many blacks and Latinos live there", but that no one ever will say it out loud.  ...

My reaction is because you stated it as if it were racist code being used and instead of using those statistics they should just exclude them and tout the low black and Mexican population because that's what people really mean.  One of your latest responses makes the same claim.  So my issue is not with any facts that may prove that safe places with good schools have low black and Mexican populations, but that you insinuate that anyone considering safety and good schools really is looking for a place with low black or Mexican residents.

 

My point about North Highlands is that is has the same black (11%) and almost the same Hispanic (18% vs 23%) population as Elk Grove (2010 census), yet Elk Grove is on the list and North Highlands is not on the list.  Just pointing out that your claim that safety and good schools is used as code to eliminate places like this when making a "best places" list, rather than the safety and good school stats as they stand by themselves, is crap since all other metrics used to create the list are about the same (actually North Highlands probably has a better commute and cost of living score).


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#44 Rich_T

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 12:31 PM

My reaction is because you stated it as if it were racist code being used and instead of using those statistics they should just exclude them and tout the low black and Mexican population because that's what people really mean.  One of your latest responses makes the same claim.  So my issue is not with any facts that may prove that safe places with good schools have low black and Mexican populations, but that you insinuate that anyone considering safety and good schools really is looking for a place with low black or Mexican residents.

 

My point about North Highlands is that is has the same black (11%) and almost the same Hispanic (18% vs 23%) population as Elk Grove (2010 census), yet Elk Grove is on the list and North Highlands is not on the list.  Just pointing out that your claim that safety and good schools is used as code to eliminate places like this when making a "best places" list, rather than the safety and good school stats as they stand by themselves, is crap since all other metrics used to create the list are about the same (actually North Highlands probably has a better commute and cost of living score).

 

I don't think it's a racist code, just a code.  It doesn't mean the writer was sending the message on purpose, and yet the reader still can't help but figure it out. 

 

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, and it's even annoying me by now.  So I'll just spell it out one more time.  If an area has "good schools" and "safety" among its attractive "best place to live" features, then you can be sure it doesn't have a high black and/or Latino population, and people will figure that out from such reports.  It's not correct to interpret that as meaning "anyone considering safety and good schools really is looking for a place with low black or Mexican residents", although some people might do that.  But if you were to say "anyone considering safety and good schools really might as well only look at places with low black or Mexican residents", then you'd have the gist of what I was saying.  Meanwhile, anyone who "really is looking for a place with low black or Mexican residents" might not necessarily find a place with good schools and safety.  Right?  So all these statements sound similar, but actually mean different things. 

 

That's weird about North Highlands.  In the 2000 census data, it says 40% black and 30% Hispanic (70% total).   In 2010 it says 11% black and 23% Hispanic (34% total).   It says the white population increased from 16% in 2000 to 63% in 2010.  That definitely surprises me (I don't recall hearing about whites moving into North Highlands in droves), and it goes to show you that simply having a majority-white population does not necessarily translate into "good schools" and "safety".  Meanwhile, Elk Grove is actually probably a poster child for what happens to good schools and safety when the racial demographics change a lot in the other direction.

 

I get it - you and others want to be vigilant against racism wherever it raises its ugly head, so you are touchy about any statements about race.  In contrast, I am tired of all the pussyfooting around by those who publish "best places to live" lists, which I why I just came out and mentioned the obvious, with a note of sarcasm that no one noticed.

 

It's certainly true that there are more factors besides safety and good schools when deciding where to live, and it depends on one's own situation and motives.  City life, transportation time, housing costs, feeling comfortable in the local community, and other things figure into the equation.  People without kids don't necessarily care about good schools.



#45 SacKen

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 05:01 PM

 

...

 

I get it - you and others want to be vigilant against racism wherever it raises its ugly head, so you are touchy about any statements about race.  In contrast, I am tired of all the pussyfooting around by those who publish "best places to live" lists, which I why I just came out and mentioned the obvious, with a note of sarcasm that no one noticed.

...

 

I do get what you keep explaining over and over again.  You obviously don't get it yet.  I was not standing up for racism because it raised its ugly head, nor do I care if you point out that these places have low minority populations.  Quite the opposite.  I'm tired of people making accusations of racism when it is not warranted.  You did not present it as, "Fun fact! No 'Best Place To Live' ever has a high population of blacks or Mexicans!"  You said that good schools and safety were dog whistles for "no blacks or Mexicans."  It may not have been your intent, but you were the one that came off as being vigilant against racism by making this accusation, not stating a fact.  It's the accusation that pissed me off.

 

:deadhorse:


"Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!" -- George Carlin




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