64 replies to this topic

[2 Aces]

Why aren't black people and black athletes all across the country kneeling in protest of the epidemic of black on black crime in America? THAT is a much bigger problem than the lie of "rampant police brutality against blacks". Anyone want to tackle that issue? Or, as a *white guy of privilege*, am I not allowed to mention that issue?

[apeman45]

I will bite ACES.  I am also a white guy of privilege.  I grew up in in a low income mostly black ghetto.  I don't have a degree.  The color of my skin has everything to do with where I am now.  Great job, nice house in Empire Ranch, and a safe neighborhood that provided my daughter a chance to get an education and continue on with her advantage in life as a white person in the United States.  I did not have to work harder than my childhood friends.  I was born into privilege.  I had choices others did not in my neighborhood growing up, simply because of the color of my skin.

 

This is not only a race issue but an economic issue that makes it hard for people different than you to live like you.  Your total inability to comprehend that problem is why change is so hard.  Racism is an ugly subtle reality for people trying to succeed but it's invisible to the people in power who often decide who and who doesn't succeed in life.

 

That is why they kneel!

[The Average Joe]

I'll just add... NFL and its employees sell a product. The same is true for actors and musicians. They are there to ENTERTAIN us. When they cease to do that, their product will suffer. It makes absolutely ZERO business sense to alienate half (or more) of your potential clients.  If you want to see change, be the change. Live it. These "protests" have ZERO positive effect and only further the divide.  I let the stats speak for themselves. According to the FBI, while black people are around 13% of the population, they account for a hugely disproportionate percentage of crimes. (52% of the murders, 56% or robbery, 39% of violent crime and 31% of rapes). https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43  Perhaps the reason that black people are "harassed" more is that there is indeed profiling going on. If a set of people are violating the law at 4x the rate of other groups, then perhaps you take a closer look at that group. Crazy right? It has everything to do with culture. Asians only account for 1% of all crime. Why? Are they superior people? No. But they are doing SOMETHING right. Adjusted for population percentages, blacks are 20x more likely to be arrested for crimes than asians!  Oddly, DUI arrests for blacks are lower than their population percentage. the only category that is true.  The news is worse for under 18 arrests. Black youth account for 71% of robbery, 89% of gambling and 69% of prostitution. 

If NFL players really want to see a change (and I think we ALL do), then they need to address the issues in the black community. Message the youth on being responsible for their children (yes, I said it. I'm looking at you 74% of black men that father a child out of wedlock and offer no guidance or support to those children..of course many of those deadbeats are pro athletes so...). Inspire them to value work and education. Teach them to get rid of that gigantic chip on their shoulder and embrace a culture of success.  As long as those issues go unaddressed, nothing will change in the policing front.

 

 This has nothing to do with "privilege".The color of your skin has very little to do with how successful you are in America. Your values, ethics, and self motivation are FAR more important.  I too grew up in a bad area. I was one of two caucasians in my class. I had no privilege. My parents were poor, my neighbors were poor, all my friends were of different races than myself. Even at a young age, I knew who would "get out" and who would not. It had nothing to do with race, and everything to do with attitude.  Instead of embracing victimhood, I wish all people would embrace the idea that ATTITUDE and EFFORT will make up for a tremendous amount of perceived and real unequal starting points.

 

Finally, yes, racism still exists. But it is getting better. Ask someone who grew up in the fifties if racism is worse now.  I will add this. Show me any example of racial injustice, and I will fight by your side. However, blanket statements about "institutional" racism are crap. You had a black President and AG (x2) and numerous black Congresspeople. Many towns have black mayors, chiefs of police etc.  Where is it institutional? I'll leave you with the words of former Sec State Colin Powell:

 

There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure...

 

A dream doesn't become reality through magic; it takes sweat, determination and hard work...

 

Success is the result of perfection, hard work, learning from failure, loyalty, and persistence.

 

THAT is the message these asshat NFL players should be sending...in other words, attitude and effort.

[2 Aces]

Apeman, then what do you plan to do to *level the playing field*, since you seem to be ravaged with guilt over your "white privilege"? I have some suggestions.

 

Additionally, you seem to be saying, "non-whites are destined to fail". You embody the "soft bigotry of low expectations". Some would call it *racism*. Do you realize that?

[apeman45]

2Aces - I wouldn't call it "racism".  I would call you a racist though.  

 

Joe - So being white did not give you an advantage?  You could tell who would get out and who wouldn't.  I do thank you at presenting a logical argument.

 

The economic divide is all about racism and inequality.  I would say racism has remained the same in our country for the last 50 years.  Only recently has it become OK to openly be racist.  Our own president condones it.  I see it on a daily basis where I live and work.  I have to beg my co-workers to please not use the N word around me.  Most of them have one thing in common.  They have never been around people different than them and have no idea what racism really is or does to people because they only have like minded people around them in their little sheltered worlds.  

 

I've experienced very racist comments on these threads for 17 years which is why I disappear from time to time.  Yes I'm a Bay Area transplant and while I don't miss the traffic and housing prices I sure miss the tolerance.  I moved here in 1989 and the first thing I noticed was the subtle racism everywhere. It's not overt but it is always there and after a while you become numb to it until it becomes the norm.  

 

Don't get me wrong - I love living in Folsom.  My parents and my faith taught me to do the right thing.  I will not change and accept intolerance as something that is normal. 

[2 Aces]

Yawn. People like you see race in everything. That is the *quintessential definition* of a racist. You can try to deflect that accusation, but it's crystal clear by your own admission.

[Steve Heard]

Like broken clocks, we all can be right twice a day. Does that make us wrong the rest of the time? Maybe. 

 

There seems to be very few people who are willing to acknowledge that there are truths spoken on both sides of the argument.  

 

I agree that there is an enormous leadership void in the black community, and that there are things that black people can do to better their lives, and many do those things. 

 

I know that white folks get pulled over and berated by cops, too. It's not 'cause of their race though. As Joe said, long hair and a beater car. That's not required if you're black. 

 

I agree that the players should be treated the same as any other employee, but they're not our employees, even though we are actually the ones who pay their salaries.   

 

I agree that there is more that we can all do. 

[The Average Joe]

The economic divide is all about racism and inequality.

 

Nonsense.  There are far more white and hispanic people living in poverty than black.  Where is their privilege? Black percentage is higher, but they are a much smaller group.  Where is the supposed "racism and inequality" benefit for the 25 million non-hispanic white people in poverty? Shouldn't they be reaping the benefits of being white? I have been around a lot of "whiskey tangos" over the years, and it is not "the man" keeping them down...or any perceived bias. More commonly, it is a bad series of life choices combined with a victim mentality.

 

It is VERY easy to stay out of poverty in America. It requires 3 simple life choices.  If you do these things, you have less than a 2% chance of being poor and a 74% chance of being in the middle class.

 

These are colorblind rules.

 

1) Graduate from high school. It's even better if you actually learn something while you're there.

 

2) This is the big one. Wait until after 21 to get married, AND don't have children until after you're married.

 

3) Have a full time job.

 

That's it. Pretty simple rules for people of all races. Ignore them at your peril.

[ghost35me]

 

Respect must be earned? To a certain degree that is true, but don't we grant each other respect until we prove we don't deserve it? Should it be different depending on one's color?

 

I could list off countless personal experiences of me being disrespected, absolutely unequivocally without a doubt due to my race without me demonstrating any behavior that should earn me such disrespect. What good would that list do? 

 

Yes, there is plenty of data to support the position that many people in positions of authority do discriminate against blacks and other minorities in this country. 

 

What good will sharing that data with you do?   

 

The players who protest are now thugs? Asking for justice is supporting thugs? Silent, peaceful protest is now considered thuggery? 

 

Actually, yes, respect is indeed earned. Why would one respect someone else without any knowledge of that person?

 

I think the word you should be using is courtesy or civility. In public, yes, people should be courteous. There are generally accepted etiquettes to which gentlepeople adhere.  That is different from respect.

 

The flag and everything this country stand for has earned its due respect.  NFL players, not so much.

 

Asking for justice does not make one a thug.  You're twisting my words.   These guys are thugs.  And they make a mockery out of calling for justice when they themselves don't adhere to it. Hypocrites. 

[ghost35me]

I will bite ACES.  I am also a white guy of privilege.  I grew up in in a low income mostly black ghetto.  I don't have a degree.  The color of my skin has everything to do with where I am now.  Great job, nice house in Empire Ranch, and a safe neighborhood that provided my daughter a chance to get an education and continue on with her advantage in life as a white person in the United States.  I did not have to work harder than my childhood friends.  I was born into privilege.  I had choices others did not in my neighborhood growing up, simply because of the color of my skin.

 

This is not only a race issue but an economic issue that makes it hard for people different than you to live like you.  Your total inability to comprehend that problem is why change is so hard.  Racism is an ugly subtle reality for people trying to succeed but it's invisible to the people in power who often decide who and who doesn't succeed in life.

 

That is why they kneel!

 

No, the don't kneel because of some false outcry against racism.  They kneel for other reasons but racism is not one of them.  That's just a cover.

 

Again, I'm not saying racism doesn't exist. It does. But that's not what is going on here.  

 

By the way, profiling and racism are two different things.  Profiling has existed from the beginning and is a natural key to survival. Can racism lead to false profiling? Sure.  But then it's probably just racism.  Profiling is related to survival.  Racism is a different social construct that is not necessarily born out of the survival instinct.

 

I'm against racism. I support profiling.

[Carl G]

I have a black friend that lives in Elk Grove.  In the last 10 years he has been pulled over 17 times and has never been cited once.  It's usually something like "I thought your tail light was out" or "I thought your registration was expired, my bad".  During these stops they detain him and check his record.  Sometimes he gets to sit in the back seat of the police car while they do this.  In 3 instances he has been face down on the street in hand cuffs.  Always released with no citation because he has never broken the law.  He's never had a ticket his whole life.  He's always held a job since the age of 16.  This is just something he gets to deal with and worry about every day he leaves his house because of the color of his skin.

 

This is why the players kneel!

 

I would love to see such a person have a dash cam that records audio too.  After two or three instances, submit it to a news station. This is the type of thing that cops should be called on.

[2 Aces]

I'm not sure that I believe apeman's Elk Grove story. Out of desperation to try to prove a point, Leftists typically will create a narrative that supports their grievance, then attempt to sell it to others so they can claim the *victim card*. If I remember right, apeman tried this a couple years ago on a similar topic. And then he magically went away for a year or so. IMHO, he's a fraud similar to UncleVinnys and Asshat, aka Who_Lib.

[Steve Heard]

 

Actually, yes, respect is indeed earned. Why would one respect someone else without any knowledge of that person?

 

I think the word you should be using is courtesy or civility. In public, yes, people should be courteous. There are generally accepted etiquettes to which gentlepeople adhere.  That is different from respect.

 

The flag and everything this country stand for has earned its due respect.  NFL players, not so much.

 

Asking for justice does not make one a thug.  You're twisting my words.   These guys are thugs.  And they make a mockery out of calling for justice when they themselves don't adhere to it. Hypocrites. 

 

 

So, we should all be entitled to courtesy and respect, regardless of our race or color, until we prove otherwise by our behavior or actions. 

 

You paint all of the players who have joined the protest with the same brush, calling them thugs. Dictionaries generally define thugs as violent criminals. These men are none such. Many of them have charitable and educational foundations. 

 

While there certainly have been cases of pro football players behaving thuggishly, such is not the case here. They aren't doing anything violent or illegal. They are having peaceful, silent protests. 

 

 

 

 

I would love to see such a person have a dash cam that records audio too.  After two or three instances, submit it to a news station. This is the type of thing that cops should be called on.

 

Unfortunately, there is little interest in the subject. According to records obtained by the press, Philando Castille was pulled over by police 52 times. He was shot and killed by a cop while attemptinig to show his CCW permit and ID. The cop thought he was reaching for a gun. Some would say that's a bit much, others would say it's good police work. Depends on one's perspective. 

[bordercolliefan]

Surely, we all know in our hearts that racism exists, even if we might disagree on the scope of it. There are psychology experiments that have shown that when forced to react quickly, almost all subjects are more likely to apply negative adjectives (like "bad" or "dangerous") to a picture of a black person than a picture of a white person. 

 

I'm sure police officers get training in how NOT to act on biases and/or stereotypes, but to believe these never come into play would just be living in a fantasy land.  Do most police officers wake up every day thinking, "I'm going to try to kill black people"?  Of course not.  But could they be influenced by unconscious biases to think a black person "just seems suspicious" or "probably has a gun on him"?  Sure.  Just like when I see a guy in a so-called wife-beater tank top with lots of tattoos, I'm more on guard then when a Mormon missionary in a suit and tie approaches.  

 

Why deny what we all know to be true-- that all of us, including police officers, are influenced by biases, stereotypes, and judgments based on appearance?  

 

Similarly, why do people seem so threatened and/or outraged that some football players want to direct attention to this issue?  I personally will not kneel, because I still believe in the project and the promise of a United States for all of us, and to me the flag symbolizes that enduring ideal.  But I'm not offended if the players choose to kneel.  Keep in mind, kneeling is a respectful gesture--that's why people do it in church.  Also, if not for Trump, I think this protest would have quickly faded.  He has done more to prolong and promote it than anyone else.  

 

All of that said, it is also true (as Avg Joe points out) that nowadays there is a lot of opportunity for people who work hard, avoid substance abuse, and delay marriage and childbearing.  I recently read that the admissions rate for white applicants to Stanford is around 4%; for black applicants it's 40%. I think Pres. Obama noted that among some people in some racial/ethnic communities, there are cultural choices or norms that do make it hard to get ahead.  So these need to be addressed too, and it would be great if these NFL players would become spokespeople for responsible marriage and parenting and staying in school (perhaps some of them do this; I really don't follow them).

 

I sometimes think that the "kneeling" debate and other largely symbolic controversies get everyone all riled up and offended, and meanwhile we're not making any real progress toward a more just society with true equality of opportunity.  In fact, to the extent these kinds of debates stir up racial divisions and resentments, we are probably going backwards.  

[Who_Do_You_Trust]

Here's a thought that many may not agree with - Racism is genetic.  It's inborn in all of us and trying to alter genetic traits is nearly impossible.  Not only do humans have a tinge of racism in their genes, so do animals.  You don't see the zebras hanging out with the rhinos.  I've even seen it at the dog park.  Dogs with floppy ears tend to congregate together, and dogs with pointy ears that stand up tend to congregate together.  And they don't hang out with each other very much.  I haven't seen it every time, but enough times that it's notable.  If you have a dog and go to the dog park, check it out next time.