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East Bidwell Complete Streets Plan


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#31 cw68

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 10:06 AM

I really wish I would have been able to attend last night's meeting. And I definitely wish I had more information as to what is specifically planned.

 

Ducky, I don't think that the whole street should be treated exactly the same since the conditions vary so greatly from end to end. In my uninformed option, one lane in each direction at Blue Ravine would not be a good idea because of the amount of traffic that area sees. I think it wouldn't really make a difference in traffic at the other end. There would still be a middle turn lane, which would help with turns. I really don't think that there is so much traffic that five lanes are needed from Glenn to Riley, however the school's needs definitely need to be specifically addressed (which will relieve some traffic off of the residential streets that border Sutter.

 

However, the city plan calls for a bike lane all the way down East Bidwell and having one on one portion probably doesn't do that much good. The sidewalks stink. One of the reasons that you don't see people walking/cycling on E Bidwell but you do on Riley is partly because E Bidwell is not at all comfortable to walk/ride on.

 

Something to remember is that roads are not just for cars. Cars are not the only thing that should be addressed. Currently cars are the only thing that is being addresses and you can see that it's not working all that well.

 

As for the businesses, I can't image that parking lots followed by more asphalt does all that much for business. Making the area more comfortable would do a lot more towards bringing people in. Right now it's a drive-thru spot that nobody really desires to spend time in.



#32 Howdy

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 10:19 AM

 The City's (and Caltrans $$$) investment thus far is necessary to get the ball rolling so to speak.

 

I see that, but who is going to foot the bill to build all this stuff from hwy 50 to Sutter Middle school? Looks like the CBD recommend plan is still 2 lanes each direction with a center turn lane and the pie in the sky plan is the 1 lane each direction with center turn lane. They also show a couple different maps and one shows 1 lane each direction starting at Blue Ravine to Sutter Middle school which would be a huge mistake. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out and who is paying for all the work. The plan for retiring in 16 years, cashing in and moving out of state is looking better all the time.



#33 Rich_T

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 11:07 AM

 

The plan for retiring in 16 years, cashing in and moving out of state is looking better all the time.

 

You mean you don't want to stick around to experience our "dynamic growth"?

 

;-)



#34 kcrides99

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 12:46 PM

http://www.smartgrow...mplete-streets/

#35 tony

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 04:24 PM

KCrides - yes, there are others out there that care and have been involved. I did make the meeting last night. I don't have much to say right now, other than that a few business and land  owners have effectively sunk any chance at making any significant changes in the CBD portion of the corridor any time soon. The draft report, including everything that was presented at the open house, is available on the city's web site. The traffic reduction argument is really a red herring, because if you listened to the consultants carefully (or read the report), you would have heard that the 2-lane option from Wales to Riley, with the roundabouts, would function just fine, with an assumed diversion of traffic of about 20% (mostly to Riley). I would note that a 3-lane (with center left turn lane) road with roundabouts has the essentially the same capacity as a 5-lane road with traffic signals. The extra lanes are only required to get cars through the traffic lights after they stack up at the red lights. It's good to remember that at traffic lights, at any given moment, three fourths of the vehicles are STOPPED, whereas at roundabouts, most vehicles get through without stopping, ore after only a brief stop. Other benefits of the road diet option are that it makes it much easier for vehicles to get out of businesses and onto the road because they have less lanes of traffic to deal with and it is slows all traffic to a safer speed by eliminating passing, a decided benefit in a business district.

 

You'll note that all that had no mention of bicyclists or pedestrians. Certainly, the pedestrian environment leaves a lot to be desired, and I would only add to what other have said that a major problem in the CBD, and especially in the newer parts closer to Blue Ravine, is that there are no connections between the sidewalk (where it exists) and the businesses (try to get to Carl's Jr. or La Fiesta from the sidewalk -- there is 15 ft of nice landscaping making sure you can't). We built a pedestrian hell, and then wonder why no-one walks anywhere.

 

As for bicyclists, the attitude expressed by Camay's comment about having lots of bike paths to ride on is exactly why, even with all those bike paths, Folsom has some of the lowest bike commuting levels in the region. As CW pointed out, the whole point of this planning process was to come up with a complete streets plan, a plan that would provide access for all modes in the corridor. But the recommended plan in the CBD (actually, the report shows no recommendation at all, just a bunch of considered but rejected options) offers a street that will remain indefinitely as off-limits to all but what is called in the industry the "strong and fearless", or roughly 1% of the people who rides bikes (I make a point to ride down E. Bidwell on occasion, just to prove that it can be done safely if you know what you're doing). The plan, unfortunately, punts by suggesting that bicyclists should be directed to School and Riley. While these are both much better streets on which to ride, they do not provide access to destinations on E. Bidwell, which is the whole point of complete streets. So, basically, the proposal to keep the status quo in the CBD is a commitment to keep the corridor as a one-dimensional travel corridor dedicated to moving cars as quickly as possible THROUGH the district, rather than making it more attractive for those who want to go TO location IN the district.

 

There are a couple of positive notes. I think the idea of extending Riley to E. Bidwell is great and should be pursued. I also was told at the meeting that the city will be looking into doing a specific plan for the CBD, which would consider zoning changes that could prompt redevelopment of the older parts and slowly evolve the development into something more compatible with complete streets-- i.e., mixed-use developments that will develop into a walkable area, which can only happen with higher density and storefronts at the back of sidewalk (this is where maestro chirps in about the illegal zoning changes). In the mean time, those who do walk and bike in the corridor, will continue to be out of luck. The other parts that we may see happen in the shorter term are minor improvements to Glenn and Wales between Riley and E. Bidwell, and conversion of School St. into a bike boulevard (which has been in the Bikeway Master Plan for about 15 years). If done right, this would address the concerns about cut-thru traffic on School, and ideally Duchow as well. But, given the city's current effective ban on any effective traffic calming, I'll believe it when I see it, because you can't create a viable bike boulevard without real traffic calming.

 

As long as we think of our streets as nothing more than conduits to efficiently move cars, we will continue to have streets that people just want to get through as fast as possible, instead of places that people want to go.  I fear we are a long way from any change in that direction beyond Sutter Street.

 

OK, so I did have a few words to say...



#36 Howdy

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 08:18 PM

This is an example of putting the cart before the horse. Have they even polled the residents of Folsom to see how many are interested in walking or riding a bike down to the CBD? I would imagine very very few. Unless you live in the neighborhoods behind the CBD who is going to be walking down there? How many people are going to walk or ride from Natoma Station or Broadstone or Empire Ranch to the CBD? And when you get down there what are you going to do? Buy some paint? Liquor? Stand in line at the DMV? Purchase some western wear?  What is the draw in the CBD to bring people in to warrant spending all this money to modify 3 blocks so people can walk or ride their bikes to nowhere?



 

You mean you don't want to stick around to experience our "dynamic growth"?

 

;-)

LOL...I will visit every 10 years and drive through saying "remember when...."



#37 caligirlz

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 11:33 PM

I just came across the S50 bike plan from another forum. They claim that isn't isnt available on the city website, so here it is. 

http://www.saclafco..../sac_030779.pdf

 

It looks there are a couple of planned overpasses as well...looks like Oak, Empire Ranch Rd, and another street I can't figure out (between Oak & E Bidwell)



#38 TruthSeeker

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:07 AM

ever since baillies left I never go to that part of town other than to go to the DMV once every few years. It's a dead zone of businesses now that we have shinier newer businesses down the road.

Those buildings are old and outdated, if the owners of those properties want business to improve they need to invest in some paint and facade updates.

Putting a patch of grass in front won't help.

Svzr2FS.jpg


#39 Rich_T

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:41 AM

I, too, have only been there in the past 10 years to go to the DMV twice.  Wait, I also went to the record store once.



#40 4thgenFolsomite

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:26 PM

those businesses seem to be doing okay, although its easy for everyone to look down on the older part of town.  the first and foremost in the lineup of people to have comments on how this area is going to be altered should be the property owners who are first and foremost going to be impacted.  not their tenant businesses, but the owners.  people who rarely venture into this area anyway may enjoy designing, but the ultimate design should be left to the real stakeholders and traffic planners.


Knowing the past helps deciphering the future.

#41 camay2327

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:57 PM

We go to the Bank of America, DMV, Gold Miners and I go to LOWES quite often, although I guess LOWES is just

out of the area we are talking about.


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#42 nomad

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:40 PM

Thought I saw a "coming soon" sign for the vacuum place in the old Radio Shack spot next to Mongolian Grill. Maybe they are getting out before the city improvements tank their business for good.



#43 Walnut

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:26 PM

This:

What is the draw in the CBD to bring people in to warrant spending all this money to modify 3 blocks so people can walk or ride their bikes to nowhere?

 

And this:

the first and foremost in the lineup of people to have comments on how this area is going to be altered should be the property owners who are first and foremost going to be impacted.  not their tenant businesses, but the owners.

 

Why should any government (city, state, or federal) put any money into improving this part of town?  Genuine question.  What problem would it solve or prevent, or what benefit would it give to the residence of Folsom?   

 

Maybe Folsom needs a lower rent district to service those businesses that couldn't support a higher rent district.  There's nothing wrong with that, honestly.   If the owners of those areas want to raise their rents or increase traffic, let them make that decision and investment, rather than relying on the government to do it.

 

The way real estate cycles, give it time, this will be the cool hip part of town eventually. 



#44 caligirlz

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 07:29 PM

I looked over the plans from the OP. I think there are some good ideas. And some not so good ideas. Regarding the CBD, many people use that end of E Bidwell as a route thru the historic district, over the Rainbow Bridge & towards GB. I do. There are times when it is very congested, and 2 lanes are beneficial to keep the traffic moving, at least until we make that right turn onto Riley and come to a stop. I rarely go the Folsom Blvd route due to the heavier traffic. OTOH, the proposal for the CBD just might be a good thing, if it also included a total upgrade to the buildings....just like the example of Lancaster Street in the plan. I think there is the potential for it to look like many successful/desirable older shopping districts (downtown Vacaville, SLO Higuera St, Main St Visalia). And with revamp, it may possibly be able to attract unique stores, which would be awesome.

 

Of all the bike-related proposals, I like the one with the median between the cars & the bicycles best. I'm not too thrilled with decreasing the width of the lanes especially if nothing is done to decrease the speeds.

 

And I'm not thrilled at all with the proposal of high density shopping/housing in the empty lot across from the palladio. Or the sight of multilevel shopping on both sides of the road as I exit the freeway & start driving down E Bidwell (see the pictures). It does sound like a developers dream.



#45 cw68

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 08:24 PM

 I'm not too thrilled with decreasing the width of the lanes especially if nothing is done to decrease the speeds.
 


Actually, reducing the width of the lanes can decrease the speeds a lot. People drive faster on wider streets, but more importantly, there are certain provisions in the CVC (California Vehicle Code) that don't allow for streets under a certain width to have low speed limits. I have forgotten what the width is that triggers this provision, but if a road is XXX wide, even if it's in a strictly residential area, even surrounding a neighborhood park, the legal speed limit can't be under 35 MPH. Cities can post lower speed limits, but if a driver is cited and ticketed, it does not hold up in traffic court.




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