284 replies to this topic

[Sue]

When did "we" become so anti-law and anti-law enforcement?

To clarify for you...Just because people would like to know, and have questions about happened, does not mean they are anti law enforcement. If someone you knew, or your child were taken in this manner, I'm sure you would have some questions too.

[Inwit]

I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with you on this. Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking.

I agree, and I would also like to point out that i am sure the FPD is not happy with how this turned out. I'm confident they are reviewing everything and discussing ways to try and prevent this from happening again. Fundamentally, we are all human, and we all learn lessons from our mistakes. Maybe in the future, they might decide that when entering bedrooms, instead of immediately going in all the way, they start by standing in the doorway, that way if a madman with a knife starts charging, you can step out and close the door creating a blockcade. Hindsight can be 20/20, I'm sure they are using this occurence so as to try and not let the same thing happen again.

[Flowerlady1]

When did "we" become so anti-law and anti-law enforcement?

To clarify for you...Just because people would like to know, and have questions about happened, does not mean they are anti law enforcement. If someone you knew, or your child were taken in this manner, I'm sure you would have some questions too.

My statements are not aimed at the ones who have questions. If a family member of mine had been injured or worse, I would indeed have questions, but I would not be attacking the police or accusing them of a 'license to kill' mentality, or saying they are small-town hicks who have no training for what they do--as well as some of the more inflamatory and frankly derogatory, comments made further back about the officers involved and the FPD in particular.

While the loss of this young man is tragic, the shooting affects EVERYONE involved, not just the family. And while everyone's hearts and prayers go out to the family, I fervently believe that hearts and prayers should go out to the police officers as well. THey are human, too, and the ones I know are kind, thoughtful, and compassionate people, and this incident has affected them profoundly, as well as their families. No one escapes from the ramifactaions and consequences of this incident, and that includes the officers who--in several cases in his thread, have been maligned and accused of all sorts of evil intent or actions. To me -- that's just wrong.
So--my other 2cents worth.

[Patricia H]

I'm new to tihs forum and wanted to first extend my deepest condolences to Joseph's friends and family. For all parties involved, this is a HORRIBLE event that took place and cant imagine walking in any of their shoes. This came to my attention because my husband is in the mental health field and told me about it. From what I recently learned, even if the family had called a psychiatric hospital or the ambulance, the issue is TRANSPORTING someone who is a danger to themselves or others. It appears that the family was, in some way, feeling scared or threatened at what Joseph's violence level was, otherwise, an ambulance would have been dispatched to the scene instead. The fact that Joseph had a knife and was possibly either under the influence of a substance or violently psychotic (whether it was due to depression, bipolar mania, or schizophrenia) posed a HUGE threat to the family's safety. I wish circumstances could have ended differently but also grateful that no other family members were hurt or killed because of it.

Edited by Patricia H, 15 May 2009 - 12:35 PM.

[Patricia H]

Okay, let's take another look at this - especially those of you who are parents: imagine being in a position where your adult child is in your home and acting strangely. If you were FEARFUL that your adult child was going to hurt YOU or someone else in your home you would call the police. If you were fearful that your adult child was going to hurt him or herself, you would call your family physician. Even considering that this family was non-English proficient, the son and family friend who contacted authorities certainly did what they felt was the proper contact (the police) under the circumstances provided them by the family.

Really - think about this, and put yourself in the same situation. Under what circumstances would you call 911? You would have to be truly fearful for yourself or others in the home. Otherwise, wouldn't you try for a medical invertention?

I fully agree with Terry's assessment. I am imagining that Joseph's family was FEARFUL, which is why the police were called.

[camay2327]

http://cbs13.com/loc....2.1076098.html


April Folsom Police Shooting Ruled Justified

The Sacramento district attorney has ruled that a shooting by Folsom police officers was justified, and the report sheds new light on some of the unusual circumstances the officers were facing.

The newly released report shows that when Folsom police officers arrived, 23-year-old Joseph Han's family wanted him put in an involuntary psychological hold. The family told officers he thought he was God, and he had been walking around the house naked, carrying a knife.

He had allegedly tried to perform sexual acts on his mother.

According to the report, three officers entered Han's room and found him holding a knife. He told them, "I'm going to cut your throat and feed it down your neck."

Officers tried to use a taser on the subject several times, but Han held onto the knife and continued to approach them. Two shots were fired, once in Han's hip and one in his chest.

Han was taken to the UC Davis Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead. Toxicology reports show the only drug in his system was marijuana.

A family spokesperson had questioned police for using deadly force immediately following the shooting.

[FrankExchange]

http://cbs13.com/loc....2.1076098.html


April Folsom Police Shooting Ruled Justified

The Sacramento district attorney has ruled that a shooting by Folsom police officers was justified, and the report sheds new light on some of the unusual circumstances the officers were facing.

The newly released report shows that when Folsom police officers arrived, 23-year-old Joseph Han's family wanted him put in an involuntary psychological hold. The family told officers he thought he was God, and he had been walking around the house naked, carrying a knife.

He had allegedly tried to perform sexual acts on his mother.

According to the report, three officers entered Han's room and found him holding a knife. He told them, "I'm going to cut your throat and feed it down your neck."

Officers tried to use a taser on the subject several times, but Han held onto the knife and continued to approach them. Two shots were fired, once in Han's hip and one in his chest.

Han was taken to the UC Davis Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead. Toxicology reports show the only drug in his system was marijuana.

A family spokesperson had questioned police for using deadly force immediately following the shooting.

A) I personally know of 2 folks for whom smoking herb resulted in permanent psychosis - and not over a period of years of use, but a few times. For some THC is a catalyst for bizarre neural effects and/or damage.

B) (Not related to your post - but BTW) I have worked with police in virtually every department in Northern California for several years - and I can tell you that my experience is that not one of them that I knew ever killed someone without feeling truly miserable over it.

[supermom]

I found this on the internet today.

It sounds as though the family is going to pursue wrongful death, now that this has fallen through.

Truly a sad day. I remember exactly where I was the day I first heard about this.Very very sad.

 

http://cdn.ca9.uscou...08/11-17930.pdf

[Carl G]

Situations with mental problems and police just don't end well.  Just a couple of days ago we saw yet another example of the bad outcome with the shooting of the homeless man with mental issues down in LA.  I don't know if this is a training thing or if some sort of social worker needs to make first contact.  I would like to see something change so people don't have to die.

[4thgenFolsomite]

if you have a family member in your own home that you can't control and who is so unstable that you feel you yourself are in danger, then that person is dangerous.  if you call the police to handle the situation, they will handle it, but you have to be prepared for the outcome.  its unfortunate, and situations don't always turn out like this, but it does happen.  they obviously didn't want to shoot him.  they tried to use the taser, they tried talking him down, but he came at them, twice. 

[mac_convert]

I hope this gets thrown out of court. Seriously a waste of the public's time and money.

[supermom]

I am sick and tired of people being killed by cops because of mental issues. 

In a situation like this one-- the man was more of a threat to others than himself. I would like to see a change in operations so that the cops backed out, slammed the door before he advanced and then called in for a tranq dart. Then a transport to a hospital. 

 

I do think this death was preventable, albeit, at this time police do not train for avoiding confrontations. 

The very mind set seen on this thread that the guy deserves to die if confrontational- if you call for cop help for a family member out of control- is quite telling in how inadequately our society views and handles mental health crisis cases. 

 

The very idea of mental health crisis is too foreign to most American families- but should not be- to law enforcement. There are just too many contacts annually made- for any law enforcement agency to not be able to recognize situations like this and have a different standard of approach to diffusing confrontations. (Maybe that means cops should have to start carry tranqs in their trunk)

 

I have personally see quite a few different successful scenarios to situations like this. Therefore, I do view the actions that happened on this day-as murder.  No, I dont think the cops on the day this happened could have done very many things differently because they had not been trained better. However, that does not make this justifiable. It merely means that the police have a very low standard of operations when it comes to confrontational mental health patient contacts.

 

I find these actions to be disgusting- much like the man who was sitting in a chair on his porch and refused to stand up and was tazed-who then had a heart attack and died in folsom a few years ago. The man was not confrontational. Merely non-compliant. The cops training gave him a justifiable reason to take an easy way out- rather than brain box storming a different approach. With as many cops as had showed up to that scenario- there is no reason why they couldn't have just bum rushed him and knocked him out of the chair and down to a prone position; then trussed him up and off to a hospital for an 'injection of calm and a banana bag'. Or-merely isolated him from moving out of his chair until he could be tranqed, or fell asleep. Yes it is possible. Temp walls can be structured quickly to keep situations like this from become violent or dangerous. putting a single guard on a box and telling them to call in when the guy eventually falls asleep is one heck of a non-confrontational approach to handling people-if you believe in individual rights and the right to life.

 

 

Is this the cops fault at the time of the incident? No. It is the fault of the state training program for cops. There definitely should be a new standard for handling people in a mental crisis. The reason you are seeing so many law suits for wrongful death- is because too many people are being killed when their deaths could have been prevented by using different policing strategies. I am not sure if any of the families believe the police showed up to their homes and intentionally set about to end the life of a mental suspect. But what those family members are stating- is that it is far above and beyond reason to believe that the state guidlines for policing has not embraced new tactics that will show they are committed to 'helping' the suspect as well as the people around them- while safeguarding the basic constitutional right to live.  

 

Yeah, that idea has not gotten a lot of traction in some circles, but the engine is powering up. It truly is time for many sectors in our society to change their outlooks and their operational styles in dealing with the mentally ill. This includes the availability of mental health care as a part of health insurance. Most health insurance companies at this time will only allow counseling for addiction,depression, diabetes, and adhd. That means that the majority of 'types' of mental health that actually has a potential for violent crisis interdiction are not being addressed. There is no excuse why mental health is not covered under health insurance-except that most mental health specialists prefer to maintain private practices in order to charge high dollar for care. That revolution is taking place in hospitals around the country and different insurance companies are concluding it is time to find a way to have their own full service practices in out-patient clinics separate from main hospitals.

 

And as a final note- every single major civil right that has had to be protected for the general public-from police.. was succeeded by the death and lawsuit/civil rights proceedings in this country. Cops just don't change until they get sued. 

 

So I find the ambivalence towards this lawsuit quite disgusting. This is about protecting people from future crises turning badly. As long as there is such a thing as a mental illness there will be mental health crises. Restructuring how they are handled is tantamount to proof that our law enforcement community cares about all the citizens they are protecting. Especially those who can't protect themselves.

[ducky]

I am sick and tired of people being killed by cops because of mental issues. 

In a situation like this one-- the man was more of a threat to others than himself. I would like to see a change in operations so that the cops backed out, slammed the door before he advanced and then called in for a tranq dart. Then a transport to a hospital. 

 

I do think this death was preventable, albeit, at this time police do not train for avoiding confrontations. 

The very mind set seen on this thread that the guy deserves to die if confrontational- if you call for cop help for a family member out of control- is quite telling in how inadequately our society views and handles mental health crisis cases. 

 

The very idea of mental health crisis is too foreign to most American families- but should not be- to law enforcement. There are just too many contacts annually made- for any law enforcement agency to not be able to recognize situations like this and have a different standard of approach to diffusing confrontations. (Maybe that means cops should have to start carry tranqs in their trunk)

 

I have personally see quite a few different successful scenarios to situations like this. Therefore, I do view the actions that happened on this day-as murder.  No, I dont think the cops on the day this happened could have done very many things differently because they had not been trained better. However, that does not make this justifiable. It merely means that the police have a very low standard of operations when it comes to confrontational mental health patient contacts.

 

I find these actions to be disgusting- much like the man who was sitting in a chair on his porch and refused to stand up and was tazed-who then had a heart attack and died in folsom a few years ago. The man was not confrontational. Merely non-compliant. The cops training gave him a justifiable reason to take an easy way out- rather than brain box storming a different approach. With as many cops as had showed up to that scenario- there is no reason why they couldn't have just bum rushed him and knocked him out of the chair and down to a prone position; then trussed him up and off to a hospital for an 'injection of calm and a banana bag'. Or-merely isolated him from moving out of his chair until he could be tranqed, or fell asleep. Yes it is possible. Temp walls can be structured quickly to keep situations like this from become violent or dangerous. putting a single guard on a box and telling them to call in when the guy eventually falls asleep is one heck of a non-confrontational approach to handling people-if you believe in individual rights and the right to life.

 

 

Is this the cops fault at the time of the incident? No. It is the fault of the state training program for cops. There definitely should be a new standard for handling people in a mental crisis. The reason you are seeing so many law suits for wrongful death- is because too many people are being killed when their deaths could have been prevented by using different policing strategies. I am not sure if any of the families believe the police showed up to their homes and intentionally set about to end the life of a mental suspect. But what those family members are stating- is that it is far above and beyond reason to believe that the state guidlines for policing has not embraced new tactics that will show they are committed to 'helping' the suspect as well as the people around them- while safeguarding the basic constitutional right to live.  

 

Yeah, that idea has not gotten a lot of traction in some circles, but the engine is powering up. It truly is time for many sectors in our society to change their outlooks and their operational styles in dealing with the mentally ill. This includes the availability of mental health care as a part of health insurance. Most health insurance companies at this time will only allow counseling for addiction,depression, diabetes, and adhd. That means that the majority of 'types' of mental health that actually has a potential for violent crisis interdiction are not being addressed. There is no excuse why mental health is not covered under health insurance-except that most mental health specialists prefer to maintain private practices in order to charge high dollar for care. That revolution is taking place in hospitals around the country and different insurance companies are concluding it is time to find a way to have their own full service practices in out-patient clinics separate from main hospitals.

 

And as a final note- every single major civil right that has had to be protected for the general public-from police.. was succeeded by the death and lawsuit/civil rights proceedings in this country. Cops just don't change until they get sued. 

 

So I find the ambivalence towards this lawsuit quite disgusting. This is about protecting people from future crises turning badly. As long as there is such a thing as a mental illness there will be mental health crises. Restructuring how they are handled is tantamount to proof that our law enforcement community cares about all the citizens they are protecting. Especially those who can't protect themselves.

Supermom,  your reference to the man tased on the porch isn't accurate if you are referring to the one on Market St.  The police negotiated with that guy for three hours during which he threatened to shoot them.  What they were worried about was he would go inside the house, which would have created a more dangerous situation.  The article says he was doing well afterwards and the family thought the police department handled the situation appropriately.  Nothing about him having a heart attack and dying afterwards.

[Carl G]

It is a tough situation.  If any person is coming after a cop with a weapon, they officer has the right to defend themselves.  Keep in mind the rooms and hallway are fairly small and the distance to 10 - 15 feet can be covered in a fraction of a second.

 

The training I would like to see is when an officer gets called into a situation like this, provided everyone is safe, stay back and allow some sort of counselor to come in and try to talk the situation down.  The counselor may be an officer with specialized training something similar to a hostage negotiator.

[supermom]

Supermom,  your reference to the man tased on the porch isn't accurate if you are referring to the one on Market St.  The police negotiated with that guy for three hours during which he threatened to shoot them.  What they were worried about was he would go inside the house, which would have created a more dangerous situation.  The article says he was doing well afterwards and the family thought the police department handled the situation appropriately.  Nothing about him having a heart attack and dying afterwards.

Yeah- you may be right- I may have confused two separate but alike incidents.