134 replies to this topic

[The Average Joe]

Yep. So how much maintenance do they need? It's a buried concrete vertical pipe... with a cover.

[supermom]

.City meeting Jan 28 Lew Howard Pk, discuss "sewer access roads."
Engineering done by Quincy, outside firm at cost $1/4 M.
http://www.folsom.ca...px?BlobID=22605


.Map of three areas to receive "sewer access roads", at the highest point in all of Folsom.    Allegedly roads are for "maintaining manholes" in this hilltop, forested area.    

http://www.folsom.ca...px?BlobID=22606

 

Well, thank you Channel 13 for listening about city sewer woes!!!!!!

 

Meeting is Wed. 28th at north end of Lew Howard Park  (where the raw sewage open-air pit was built a few years ago).

 

The city engineers have not followed the environmental process, therefore federal agencies and state agencies had made no input to these three huge paved road projects for    SEWER ACCESS   at the top of the highest point in town.

 

Well, you know me, just had to ask city director of sewer, and city engineer for their Approved blueprints & plans.    Looks to me as though the city is looking for a location to apply for more federal funds for paved trails.    Remember?   The $3 million GRANTS of FED money (for Phases 2 and 3 of the Johnny Cash Prison trail) was  pulled away from the city last year.    No blueprints there either.    

 

Residents, do you really like the city planning quietly to build $6 Million worth of roads in the Hinkle Creek watershed?    Yes, this is your SEWER monies, allegedly.     Just another ruse.    

Did you know at least 15 residents have sued the city for raw sewage spills and other pipe issues at Folsom Bluffs, above the American River?    Look at Jan 27 city council agenda.      Now the city has at least 2 dozen houses of people suing them -- with environmental (SEWAGE)  issues as the problem.

 

Great work  CBS  Channel 13 KOVR.  

Going door to door shows you really care about keeping raw sewage out of the American River.

So this all comes down to a back-up plan?

[Robert Gary]

Sounds like a lot to do about nothing. A locked gate doesn't sound like much of a crime magnet.

[ducky]

I don't see a problem with more crime for these residents, but I would want to know why, after all this time, they need access roads.  It's going to be expensive to put roads back there.  It has to be more than just an occasional checking of the manholes.  Do they have some capital improvement project that will require them to get a lot of equipment in there and why?  That would be my question at the meeting tomorrow night at the Rotary clubhouse.

 

According to maestro's link, it looks like there are three separate roads going in three separate areas behind homes, not just along Oak Avenue.  Winding Canyon Lane as well as River Rock.

[tony]

...

Well, you know me, just had to ask city director of sewer, and city engineer for their Approved blueprints & plans.    Looks to me as though the city is looking for a location to apply for more federal funds for paved trails.    Remember?   The $3 million GRANTS of FED money (for Phases 2 and 3 of the Johnny Cash Prison trail) was  pulled away from the city last year.    No blueprints there either.    

 

While taking advantage of maintenance roads to provide dual use as recreational paved trails sounds like a good use of taxpayer money, I'm not sure how popular these will be, as they are all mostly dead ends.

 

As for the Johnny Cash accusations, what are you talking about? 

[maestro]

I don't see a problem with more crime for these residents, but I would want to know why, after all this time, they need access roads.  It's going to be expensive to put roads back there.  It has to be more than just an occasional checking of the manholes.  Do they have some capital improvement project that will require them to get a lot of equipment in there and why?  That would be my question at the meeting tomorrow night at the Rotary clubhouse.

 

According to maestro's link, it looks like there are three separate roads going in three separate areas behind homes, not just along Oak Avenue.  Winding Canyon Lane as well as River Rock.

 

Ducky,  according to Army Corps expert on these precise matters, these 3 paved roads will cost a minimum of $6 Million from the sewer fund.       Moreover, they cannot be wide enough for the real need up in the forest --  access for fire pumpers and engines to combat urban interface wildfires.      Crime has always been an issue in that forest.

 

On a more direct level, the neighbors are justifiably terrified.    Try to find these places in reality.     Take a trip and get a look at Canyon rim "street", and Winding Canyon.    Unbelievable unless you view it.

 

Accessing a manhole at the highest point in town, which serves few houses?     That is another story which requires a lot of investigation.     

 

Revocation of  Phase 2 & 3 JC trail fed funds:  contact SACOG who pulled $3 million.    Mz. Howell said city council decided "to fund 2 & 3 ourselves."    Last council meeting they did a Resolution to request different federal monies intended to "open access".    Where?  Who knows.   No Approved Engineer's plans.   But city wants to open  Reclamation land at the dam, and state prison lands.      Can you imagine your fed tax $$ going to provide more "open access" to the prison grounds and strategic dam?   

[ducky]

 

Ducky,  according to Army Corps expert on these precise matters, these 3 paved roads will cost a minimum of $6 Million from the sewer fund.       Moreover, they cannot be wide enough for the real need up in the forest --  access for fire pumpers and engines to combat urban interface wildfires.      Crime has always been an issue in that forest.

 

On a more direct level, the neighbors are justifiably terrified.    Try to find these places in reality.     Take a trip and get a look at Canyon rim "street", and Winding Canyon.    Unbelievable unless you view it.

 

Accessing a manhole at the highest point in town, which serves few houses?     That is another story which requires a lot of investigation.     

 

Revocation of  Phase 2 & 3 JC trail fed funds:  contact SACOG who pulled $3 million.    Mz. Howell said city council decided "to fund 2 & 3 ourselves."    Last council meeting they did a Resolution to request different federal monies intended to "open access".    Where?  Who knows.   No Approved Engineer's plans.   But city wants to open  Reclamation land at the dam, and state prison lands.      Can you imagine your fed tax $$ going to provide more "open access" to the prison grounds and strategic dam?   

 

That's a lot of money.  Like I said, seems there would be more than regular maintenance that needs to be done to justify that kind of expenditure.

 

I haven't walked those hills.  From memory of what the area in that ravine behind River Rock looks like, I probably wouldn't want to in casual wear because of an aversion to poison oak, ticks, and rattlesnakes.

 

I'm not sure what the JC trail has to do with this, but I think what you may be referring to is the fact that the artwork couldn't be included in that project and will be privately funded?  

If they are going to open up some sort of overlook like they used to have  when the old dam road was open, I think that would be fantastic.  Otherwise, if I'm not quite deciphering your post and that's not what you meant, sorry.

[kcrides99]

Oh maestro, there you go again with just enough information to be dangerous. No documents provided to this point specify what level of improvements or roadway width or design parameters are involved in the project. Your army corps "friend" could not realistically put a price tag on a project without knowing the scope, the types of improvements visioned etc. I for one am sick of the mis-information you continue to spread on this forum and other venues.

 

Your statement  that "crime has always been an issue in that forest" may be the case; however, the reality is open spaces without access create more problems than those with legitimate users. Bad guys do not want to be seen, so they will avoid areas with regular access. Others have said this could cause a fire issue... well what is stopping a fire from happening now. This trail/road will provide better access for fire and police to prevent ongoing/future problems.

 

In reality the neighbors are afraid of change, not the scapegoats (environment, crime, etc) that have been presented.

[supermom]

 

 

As for the Johnny Cash accusations, what are you talking about? 

*coughs

 

Ducky,  according to Army Corps expert on these precise matters, these 3 paved roads will cost a minimum of $6 Million from the sewer fund.       Moreover, they cannot be wide enough for the real need up in the forest --  access for fire pumpers and engines to combat urban interface wildfires.      Crime has always been an issue in that forest.

 

On a more direct level, the neighbors are justifiably terrified.    Try to find these places in reality.     Take a trip and get a look at Canyon rim "street", and Winding Canyon.    Unbelievable unless you view it.

 

Accessing a manhole at the highest point in town, which serves few houses?     That is another story which requires a lot of investigation.     

 

Revocation of  Phase 2 & 3 JC trail fed funds:  contact SACOG who pulled $3 million.    Mz. Howell said city council decided "to fund 2 & 3 ourselves."    Last council meeting they did a Resolution to request different federal monies intended to "open access".    Where?  Who knows.   No Approved Engineer's plans.   But city wants to open  Reclamation land at the dam, and state prison lands.      Can you imagine your fed tax $$ going to provide more "open access" to the prison grounds and strategic dam?   

Why not just build a regular sized road and put emergency vehicle light changers on poles out there? I'm sure the criminals will sit there at the entrance to the street until they get a green light.

[maestro]

 

That's a lot of money.  Like I said, seems there would be more than regular maintenance that needs to be done to justify that kind of expenditure.

 

I haven't walked those hills.  From memory of what the area in that ravine behind River Rock looks like, I probably wouldn't want to in casual wear because of an aversion to poison oak, ticks, and rattlesnakes.

 

I'm not sure what the JC trail has to do with this, but I think what you may be referring to is the fact that the artwork couldn't be included in that project and will be privately funded?  

If they are going to open up some sort of overlook like they used to have  when the old dam road was open, I think that would be fantastic.  Otherwise, if I'm not quite deciphering your post and that's not what you meant, sorry.

 

The neighbors were told by a city engineer whom they questioned, the so-called "sewer access road" would indeed be utilized for other access, i.e. as a "trail."       The city was still burning from having lost the federal transportation funds ($3 Million grant for Phases 2 & 3 of JC trail on prison land.)    The city wanted the $3 million granted by SACOG and rescinded for good reason.     Since they applied for more than needed, these free-money grants are a source of cash.   So city needs to apply for funds at another location where it was not federal land or state land, and where fewer people will notice the proposal.    The logical place, where the city claims it can do whatever it wishes, is above Hinkle Creek.    The city began planning for this open paved trail project over a year ago, but the neighbors never heard one word until they got a letter announcing the Jan 28 meeting in a few days.    The cost estimate expert is Army Corps man.   His estimate is very low considering the terrain, tree removals, retaining walls, importing materials without access, etc.

 

  If the city starts out stating they are paving for a necessary sewer maintenance pavement , they figure they can justify doing whatever paving they wish, wherever they wish, calling it an essential public works incursion into the forest.    These are pavements that are city's favorite kind of "free-cash" trail -- apply for big federal bucks and do what you wish.

 

Hope that is clear:   1.  city lost a huge federal grant for trail on prison lands and fed land near the dam.   2.   city wants those huge sums of "free money" because they have not been required to do the full engineering, environmental process (which costs huge bucks out of the grant, but which city must pay UP Front).   3.   If SACOG who metes out the federal transportation grants took away the $3 million for cause, then find another agency to grant the city free-money.     Find another agency granting fed dollars, but not demanding upfront compliance and very expensive City Engineer Approved,complete blueprints.     

 

There are huge sums of federal grant dollars out there, and it appears lots of grants are approved without the applicants doing the UP FRONT costly environmental compliance, and actually building exactly what was engineer-approved.       Guess some might say free fed money is given without enough strings to ensure it is used for the stated purpose, fully engineered,  built to codes in the right place, and with FULL participation of the people and state and federal agencies.      Where are comments by the state wildlife, forest fire folks, or water guardians,   on this huge set of unconnected projects?     Where are the full documents with formal Approval by City Engineer?     Where is the evidence these roads should be deemed necessary and coming from the sanitary sewer budget?      Hope this much is clear:   free money for "trails" is wanted, especially if you don't have to do the very expensive hard work up front.     It is the city which admits they built a new bridge over Hinkle Creek without residents' input, and they plan another to expand this as a "trail" of some sort -- not a sewer access road which is closed to the public for safety.

 

The neighbors had this sprung on them at the same time another community above the river is suing the city over wanton raw sewage damage which the city refuses to remediate.     The neighbors want to see the full set of CEQA environmental documents -- including the Public Hearings records (OOpps, no hearings happened    just a Neg Dec by the city).

As a private enforcer of the Clean Water Act, I am livid to hear some houses up there recently had no sewer service for 3 days.     Finally the sewer division put a plastic pipe above ground, so these poor people could flush, cook, and shower.     

Some residents there think it's normal to have a truck pump out the manhole regularly because of "sludge."     Few people know there are sewer pipes up there which nearly double back on themselves like u-turns.    Not good.

 

If KOVR 13 had not gone door to door asking about the city letter mentioning the Jan 28 meeting,  no one would have known anything.     Hope it is all clear.     The free-money from grants is worth applying for, because no matter what is in your application, you have a good chance of getting millions.    The problems in this watershed are massive, and sewer money should not be spent on roads, but proper pipes.    What do we pay a City Engineer to do?     

One day soon enough pipes will burst and the city might consider controlling its sewage.

 

Again, if people don't try to locate this, and drive it, and then later walk it, their opinions are un-informed.    Go there to Canyon Rim and Hinkle Creek and take a look.   Frankly the residents were shell-shocked when the city letter arrived.   

[Stop South of 50]

If the "Best of Folsom" returns for 2015, can we have a category titled "Best MyFolsom Nut"?

[tony]

...

Revocation of  Phase 2 & 3 JC trail fed funds:  contact SACOG who pulled $3 million.    Mz. Howell said city council decided "to fund 2 & 3 ourselves."    Last council meeting they did a Resolution to request different federal monies intended to "open access".    Where?  Who knows.   No Approved Engineer's plans.   But city wants to open  Reclamation land at the dam, and state prison lands.      Can you imagine your fed tax $$ going to provide more "open access" to the prison grounds and strategic dam?   

So, if you say it enough times, it must be true. You've repeated this canard about SACOG rescinding funding and the JC trail not having approve plans about a hundred times, with absolutely no evidence to support your accusations. I've looked into it and find no evidence of SACOG rescinding trail funds for the Johnny Cash Trail. The city did go back to SACOG and ask to get some of the Phase 2 grant money transferred to Phase 1 because they increased the length of phase 1 and the bids came in high for the bridge. SACOG approved that transfer, so the city has had to apply for additional grant funding to cover Phase 2. And this business about no approved engineer's plans is completely false. I signed the plans for the Phase 1 Johnny Cash Trail as PM, two other engineers in our office signed and stamped the detailed path and bridge plans, and Steve Krahne signed off on them for the city. Enough already!

 

As for the topic at hand, the scandal is not that they are building an access road that somehow might be useful for recreation as well (and I don't know if that is the plan), but the question is why they let the developer put the sewer and all the manholes in with no access in the first place? And if they are trying to provide recreational access to this very nice public open space, where exactly is the scandal in that? Just because homeowners don't want it in their back yard, doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do (unless it is actually in their back yards). 

[supermom]

 

 

As for the topic at hand, the scandal is not that they are building an access road that somehow might be useful for recreation as well (and I don't know if that is the plan), but the question is why they let the developer put the sewer and all the manholes in with no access in the first place? And if they are trying to provide recreational access to this very nice public open space, where exactly is the scandal in that? Just because homeowners don't want it in their back yard, doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do (unless it is actually in their back yards). 

 

Tony , don't you think this is a circular and unproductive statement is resolving the situation?

It is rather like:

mmm, I like twinkies

Ban twinkies in Highschool!

It is much easier to just ban vending machines in all public schools in folsom so that we can circumnavigate any federal or state laws requiring proof that the contents (which may change often depending on supply and demand) are unhealthy.

Ban vending machines!

Wait, if twinkies are bad for you, why were they even invented? why were they ever allowed to be sold in schools? Twinkies must not be bad for you.

Blame the superintendent of facility designs! Blame the janitor for signing vending contracts! 

Blame parents for giving money to their kids!

Wait, thats just mean. kids need to have a right to money!

Well, I still like twinkies.

 

God I love the twinkie argument.

[TruthSeeker]

If the "Best of Folsom" returns for 2015, can we have a category titled "Best MyFolsom Nut"?

 

So, you're all against South of 50 development but all for putting in roads in a nature preserve for access to a sewer vent?

Got it. You're the first nominee for your new suggested Best of category. 

[maestro]

 

 

 

As for the topic at hand, the scandal is not that they are building an access road that somehow might be useful for recreation as well (and I don't know if that is the plan), but the question is why they let the developer put the sewer and all the manholes in with no access in the first place? And if they are trying to provide recreational access to this very nice public open space, where exactly is the scandal in that? Just because homeowners don't want it in their back yard, doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do (unless it is actually in their back yards). 

 

Tony , don't you think this is a circular and unproductive statement is resolving the situation?

It is rather like:

mmm, I like twinkies

Ban twinkies in Highschool!

It is much easier to just ban vending machines in all public schools in folsom so that we can circumnavigate any federal or state laws requiring proof that the contents (which may change often depending on supply and demand) are unhealthy.

Ban vending machines!

Wait, if twinkies are bad for you, why were they even invented? why were they ever allowed to be sold in schools? Twinkies must not be bad for you.

Blame the superintendent of facility designs! Blame the janitor for signing vending contracts! 

Blame parents for giving money to their kids!

Wait, thats just mean. kids need to have a right to money!

Well, I still like twinkies.

 

God I love the twinkie argument.

 

 

 

Supermom, 

You hit the nails on the head.       When some people cannot utilize facts, evidence, and plain logic, they resort to name calling and accusations.          Don't you wish Tony,  Jim & other wanna-be's    would just publicly ask the council members to address these issues?           They could just pick up a phone and call the agencies dispensing grant monies, investigating Folsom sewer system, etc.    They could demand access to the Folsom SSS map (sworn accurate & complete).

 

Instead,  Twinkie Ranting.      Luv it!   

 

Here's hoping Ducky et al take an actual tour of Canyon Rim Lane.     Tony should recognize it will make June 21, 2007, wildfire that threatened homes in Lake Natoma Shores look like a mere trashfire.    These people have every right to be terrified.      How about an organized tour to look at the lanes, forest under houses, above-ground sewer pipes, improper sewage conveyances, etc.