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Teens To Plead Guilty


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#31 cw68

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 10:34 AM

QUOTE(doj_gal @ Aug 10 2007, 09:55 AM) View Post
Nine times out of Ten I would have totally agreed with you however due to my line of work I see on a daily basis what our prison system does to people...people who are both bad and good people prior to their mistakes after incarceration are never the same and often times continue upon that life path because they were not helped to be a better person...

I agree they killed an innocent person willingly and damn well sould have known better...they are to blame and should recieve a punishment...that is why I suggested the 10 year speaking engagement...that is a longtime and think they would have to speak weekly, if not more, for a decade about what they did...I think that would serve them much more so then throwing them in a box for 23 hours a day surrounded by the areas worst scum!! At their speaking engagements they would be able to impress upon young people the dangers of driving fast and recklessly and it would also allow the boys to truely realize what they did was wrong and not just a mistake...but honestly the worst thing in the world...to have to speak and relive those few moments every week...that's a punishment...have to raise money and awareness for their cause that's a POSITIVE PUNSIHMENT>>> the jail system, which they may get a few years in, will never help them or other young people like the speaches will...

Believe me when they did the drinking and driving class when I was a teenager...it was an older man, whom only got a dui and ran the prices for all the things he now has to pay for...who cares I sure didn't...he was not convincing and did a poor job at trying to convey his message...if you put those young boys, whom the students can identify with and who truely have a message of one bad judgement ruining lives, then you may in turn affect some change...if only in a few lives...that is something positive coming from something so horrible!!!!

Chipshot,,, if it was up to you what would your exact terms of punishment...time/place be?

I'd say kids who disregarded others' safety for a selfish thrill and who took the life of an innocent bystander are scum. They killed somebody and I don't think they are any better, or deserve any less punishment, because they were "good" kids before. I think your idea of talking to kids about them killing another human being is a good one, but they should have punishment as well as rehabilitation.

My 21-year niece just got a DWI, blew a .25 (!) and simply said to me, "No big deal. It's a $721 fine and I lose my license for six months, but I can still drive to school or work. It's the second one where you have to spend at least six months in jail that I'm avoiding." (Wisconsin, so I'm sure the punishment is different here.) She isn't taking anything seriously. I told her the judge should make her have mandatory alcohol counseling and she replied that it's a joke, just a bunch of people forced by a judge to get into a room to say they have a problem with drinking. Said half the time they all go out for drinks after the meeting. (She has a lot of friends who drink too much and she's met out with friends after the meetings.) I know she's trying to posture herself, but it's jail she's afraid of.

My younger bro-in-law has had a few run ins with the law, many small ones, home detention with an ankle bracelet, felony conviction, etc. One after another, after another. However, two years ago he had to spend 90 days in county jail and he hasn't broken the law since. Said it scared the sh*t out of him and he never wants to be "in" again.

It's a combination of punishment and rehabilitation that works. Not just one or the other.

#32 folsombound

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 12:18 PM

QUOTE(Duke @ Aug 10 2007, 11:13 AM) View Post
Perhaps the minors are pleading simply because the DA's office is fully prepared to go forward with a provable Vehicular Manslaughter case...



It's probably something like that. They were so innocent and adamant that they were not racing but apparently some evidence showed up that proved otherwise so now they are willing to plea bargain. This whole episode has been disgusting. These 2 deserve some serious jail time.

#33 Jolene

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 01:17 PM

QUOTE(doj_gal @ Aug 10 2007, 10:05 AM) View Post
How are those teens gonna SEE a tangible punishment? If those boys go to jail..not one teen will remember about it in 2 months...however if they are at the schools to speak to those teens they sure will remember then?



You know, I'm pretty sure that I've heard of prisoners who have gone out in the community and done speaking engagements. Both of those things can happen, here. Go to jail and have to perform speaking. That would even have more impact, because they can talk about the horrors of jail time while they're enlightening others on the dangers of street-racing.
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#34 Steve Heard

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 01:42 PM

dojgal

My argument with your position is that you state the following:

"...these boys who seem to have such a promising future would only crumble if placed there...nothing positive for the community or anyone's future would come from this...10 years in prison will release them in there late 20's early 30's without an education, without any ADULT skills that they can turn into a profitable career to contribute to the society and under their belt is 10 years of angst against the system and learned ignorance due to the fact that they were subjected to the worst people who truely will never amount to anything...

...I think that would serve them much more so then throwing them in a box for 23 hours a day surrounded by the areas worst scum!! the jail system, which they may get a few years in, will never help them or other young people..."

You have judged them as being good young men with promising futures, based on what? What makes them better than any other kid who commits a crime? All of the others in jail are the scum of the earth, but these two darlings deserve better? The 'jail won't do them or society any good' argument is used before judges and juries every day. Sometimes it works. Sometimes there are so many advocates for a criminal, so many character witnesses, such an outpouring from the community, from the parents' friends and relatives, that the judge or jury is swayed to be more lenient.

What about the kid who doesn't have those connections? He goes to jail and becomes the scum of the earth?

Punishment should fit the crime, and we should all be treated equally under the law. I don't know that these boys' futures were any more promising than the kid who robs a liquor store or steals a lady's purse, but it shouldn't matter. They took a wife, mother, teacher, and community member away by racing down Iron Point, denied they were racing, and one even made sure that before his car was towed, he was able to remove his stereo speakers.

These guys deserve a break?

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#35 doj_gal

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE(stevethedad @ Aug 10 2007, 02:42 PM) View Post
Punishment should fit the crime, and we should all be treated equally under the law. I don't know that these boys' futures were any more promising than the kid who robs a liquor store or steals a lady's purse, but it shouldn't matter. They took a wife, mother, teacher, and community member away by racing down Iron Point, denied they were racing, and one even made sure that before his car was towed, he was able to remove his stereo speakers.

These guys deserve a break?


What is in the bolds is the problem...those chose to harm intentionally for personal gain...just as the teens whom did drive fast...but who hasn't...I am sure you have drove faster than the speed limit right, ever accidently ran a red light...ever talked on your phone while driving...ever not looked twice and left a stop sign..ever not look carefully behind you as you put your car in reverse...you know those are all things that could have resulted in someone being harmed or killed...you know they are are illegal or potentially harmful but you still have done some if not all of them right...and you are a good person...live a positive life right so why should you just be thrown into a jail cell for years for a lapse in judgement?...I think all of those things above are equally as bad a racing...and can be equally as deadly...

I am not advocating no jail time...however years of jail time will not benefit anyone...no one will truely learn from this tragedy...obviously the kids were not scared of jail time when they chose to drive that fast...maybe because many young people think that "It will never happen to me" and maybe if more young people 18-25 could speak to 12-18 year olds an impart their life story than maybe other families would be spared from situations like this...however after years of incarceration...the kids will just look at them like middle aged thugs who have been in jail and cannot relate...believe me that is what I thought of the older man who came and spoke at my school...and frankly I have never thought about him until the discussion today...however when my friend died of speeding...his own fault...I sure remembered the heck out of that...I guess maybe your age doesn't allow you to see what will really help todays youth...prison isn't the only answer and years of it will not send a message to anyone...I promise you!!!!

#36 brown

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 02:26 PM

QUOTE(doj_gal @ Aug 10 2007, 03:15 PM) View Post
What is in the bolds is the problem...those chose to harm intentionally for personal gain...just as the teens whom did drive fast...but who hasn't...I am sure you have drove faster than the speed limit right, ever accidently ran a red light...ever talked on your phone while driving...ever not looked twice and left a stop sign..ever not look carefully behind you as you put your car in reverse...you know those are all things that could have resulted in someone being harmed or killed...you know they are are illegal or potentially harmful but you still have done some if not all of them right...and you are a good person...live a positive life right so why should you just be thrown into a jail cell for years for a lapse in judgement?...I think all of those things above are equally as bad a racing...and can be equally as deadly...


Well there's the problem right there. To equate talking on a cell phone while driving, accidentally running a red light, or not looking twice at a stop sign with racing another car down a busy road at almost twice the speed limit is asinine.

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#37 doj_gal

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE(brown @ Aug 10 2007, 03:26 PM) View Post
Well there's the problem right there. To equate talking on a cell phone while driving, accidentally running a red light, or not looking twice at a stop sign with racing another car down a busy road at almost twice the speed limit is asinine.


How is it asinine? A person not paying attention due to talking on cell phone could have killed that lady just as easily..people run red lights everyday and kill people...so if you race it makes that death more important than the stupid soccer mom on the cell phone, while eating and yelling at her kids to be quiet who runs into and kills a person? She made plenty of mistakes but they were true accidents right?

#38 brown

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE(doj_gal @ Aug 10 2007, 03:40 PM) View Post
How is it asinine? A person not paying attention due to talking on cell phone could have killed that lady just as easily..people run red lights everyday and kill people...so if you race it makes that death more important than the stupid soccer mom on the cell phone, while eating and yelling at her kids to be quiet who runs into and kills a person? She made plenty of mistakes but they were true accidents right?


Did I say one death is more important that another? No I did not. I just said that equating talking on a cell phone while driving with what these kids were doing is ridiculous, which is what it is.
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#39 ChipShot

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:03 PM

QUOTE(brown @ Aug 10 2007, 03:26 PM) View Post
Well there's the problem right there. To equate talking on a cell phone while driving, accidentally running a red light, or not looking twice at a stop sign with racing another car down a busy road at almost twice the speed limit is asinine.

I think pretty-much everyone agrees with us on this. It is asinine. Yes, I said earlier I was done with this thread, but the reasoning by dol_gal on this defies logic, and is exponentially more convoluted than anything I've ever heard in my life. Does she REALLY work for the DOJ?? Please tell me "no". I am truly in disbelief that ANYONE would equate a distracted driver (no, I don't like them either) with someone who drives willingly 90 MPH down Iron Point and kills someone. doj_gal exemplifies what's wrong with our "justice/court system". The system is broken, but people like her just don't have the guts to admit it. soapbox.gif
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#40 doj_gal

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:13 PM

QUOTE(ChipShot @ Aug 10 2007, 04:03 PM) View Post
I think pretty-much everyone agrees with us on this. It is asinine. Yes, I said earlier I was done with this thread, but the reasoning by dol_gal on this defies logic, and is exponentially more convoluted than anything I've ever heard in my life. Does she REALLY work for the DOJ?? Please tell me "no". I am truly in disbelief that ANYONE would equate a distracted driver (no, I don't like them either) with someone who drives willingly 90 MPH down Iron Point and kills someone. doj_gal exemplifies what's wrong with our "justice/court system". The system is broken, but people like her just don't have the guts to admit it. soapbox.gif


I absolutely agree with everything said in earlier posts and believe that your view to not look outside of the box on this is a huge part of the flawed judicial system...also the fact that it is proven that incarceration is not the best way in which to effectively change people only prevent the truely incapable of further harming the innocent...it's a day care for adults with absolutely no other value than containment...and YES I do think a purposefully distracted driver is the exact same...the problem is you don't see so...even when the outcome is exactly the same and often times it is the distracted driver that feels no remorse "cause it was an accident"...I don't understand how talking on your cellphone while driving is an accident...seems pretty well thought out and malicious to me>>>>>

#41 ChipShot

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:15 PM

Anyone ever heard the phrase "GROSS VEHICULAR MANSLAUGTHER" ??????? That's what these punks should be facing...and that comes with a nice little prison term, and not a slap on the wrist. A jury would no-doubt convict them in a heartbeat. Too bad our D.A. Jan Scully is so gutless.
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#42 Steve Heard

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:15 PM

QUOTE(doj_gal @ Aug 10 2007, 03:15 PM) View Post
What is in the bolds is the problem...those chose to harm intentionally for personal gain...just as the teens whom did drive fast...but who hasn't...I am sure you have drove faster than the speed limit right, ever accidently ran a red light...ever talked on your phone while driving...ever not looked twice and left a stop sign..ever not look carefully behind you as you put your car in reverse...you know those are all things that could have resulted in someone being harmed or killed...you know they are are illegal or potentially harmful but you still have done some if not all of them right...and you are a good person...live a positive life right so why should you just be thrown into a jail cell for years for a lapse in judgement?...I think all of those things above are equally as bad a racing...and can be equally as deadly...

...I guess maybe your age doesn't allow you to see what will really help todays youth...prison isn't the only answer and years of it will not send a message to anyone...I promise you!!!!


Those boys didn't accidentally speed. They had willful disregard for the posted speed limits, and have been made fully aware of both the dangers of and the laws against speeding. Their actions are vastly different than of those who get in an accident under the circumstances you describe.

Many a robber or purse-snatcher has pleaded a temporary lapse in judgement of someone with an otherwise spotless record. They still committed the crime, as have these boys.

And don't be fooled by my age. With it comes experience. I am not out of touch with today's youth, nor with what helps them.

For example:

* I am the board of directors with the Folsom Cordova Community Partnership, which runs programs for at-risk kids

* I am a mentor with the Roots and Horizons - a mentoring program for children of incarcerated parents (the scum of the earth, as you put it)

* have given free self-defense lessons for homeless kids at the Mather facility

* am one of the founders of the 'Slow Down Folsom' campaign

* sat on the planning committees for the Folsom Healthy Families Forums, working with police, counselors, healthcare, teachers and community members to bring information on drug abuse, crime and internet safety to Folsom parents and kids alike

Oh, and I've got two teenage daughters, and continually counsel them and their friends on many aspects of life, including right and wrong.

I may not be a child expert, but I've got a little experience, and I'm learning more each day.

Perhaps as you mature and gain experience, you will come to feel differently about the actions of these two promising youths, and perhaps you'll grow to see promise in others less fortunate, as well.

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#43 Duke

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE(folsombound @ Aug 10 2007, 01:18 PM) View Post
It's probably something like that. They were so innocent and adamant that they were not racing but apparently some evidence showed up that proved otherwise so now they are willing to plea bargain. This whole episode has been disgusting. These 2 deserve some serious jail time.


Indeed.

... "While Folsom police and prosecutors maintain the teens were street racing, Adamson said his client denies that. "His definition is a starting line and a finish line and whoever gets there first wins. That's not at all what they were doing," Adamson said."...

You bet they're better off pleading. The minor's "definition", and the suggestion that "... a starting line and a finish line" are required to engage in street racing is a stretch. I'm betting a Superior Court judge simply wouldn't buy it.


#44 mrdavex

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 04:08 PM

Regardless of whether these two college-bound fools are shipped off to Sing-Sing or rehabbed, how do we make sure that the unfortunate events of this really tragic accident make us think about the way we (or our children) drive? While we can certainly throw the book at Mommy & Daddy for buying Junior a shiny new Eurotrash Mobile, almost any able bodied car can go 80 MPH, and any 2000 lbs+ moving piece of steel is a deadly weapon. How do we address that jacka$$ that cut off the car behind me on eastbound Iron Point (where the 3 lanes merge into 2) just so he could be one car ahead when he stopped at the red light at Oak Avest so he wouldn't ding my car)? How do we keep that idiot who disregards the red light at the Humbug-Willow Creek trail crossing from mowing down a pedestrian? What about those kiddies texting, completely ignoring the road? I'm tired of hearing about another innocent driver or pedestrain being killed by someone's intentional driving negligence. I'm tired of paying higher premiums on my auto and health insurance due to all the 20k annual auto accident deaths and countless more injuries.

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#45 camay2327

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 04:34 PM

QUOTE(doj_gal @ Aug 10 2007, 03:15 PM) View Post
What is in the bolds is the problem...those chose to harm intentionally for personal gain...just as the teens whom did drive fast...but who hasn't...I am sure you have drove faster than the speed limit right, ever accidently ran a red light...ever talked on your phone while driving...ever not looked twice and left a stop sign..ever not look carefully behind you as you put your car in reverse...you know those are all things that could have resulted in someone being harmed or killed...you know they are are illegal or potentially harmful but you still have done some if not all of them right...and you are a good person...live a positive life right so why should you just be thrown into a jail cell for years for a lapse in judgement?...I think all of those things above are equally as bad a racing...and can be equally as deadly...

I am not advocating no jail time...however years of jail time will not benefit anyone...no one will truely learn from this tragedy...obviously the kids were not scared of jail time when they chose to drive that fast...maybe because many young people think that "It will never happen to me" and maybe if more young people 18-25 could speak to 12-18 year olds an impart their life story than maybe other families would be spared from situations like this...however after years of incarceration...the kids will just look at them like middle aged thugs who have been in jail and cannot relate...believe me that is what I thought of the older man who came and spoke at my school...and frankly I have never thought about him until the discussion today...however when my friend died of speeding...his own fault...I sure remembered the heck out of that...I guess maybe your age doesn't allow you to see what will really help todays youth...prison isn't the only answer and years of it will not send a message to anyone...I promise you!!!!


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Your idea must be to let them right back out to do it again????


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