219 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

The Sacramento Bee is reporting this morning that Sibley Street will be closed on a trial basis for 30 days. The closure will be from 4-7 p.m. on weekdays.

I can't believe the City Council has reversed its position on this! Several months ago, Mayor Miklos called me and assured me (in a message on my answering machine) that Sibley Street would not be closed. Kerri Howell stated the same thing, in an email to me. So, I don't know what has changed the city's position on this? It seems like it came out of the blue.

The Bee is full of quotes from the fellow who runs the day care center down on Sibley. Understandably, he is afraid he will lose business with the street closed. I don't blame him -- I considered that center for my daughters, but I don't think I would consider it now, knowing I might have to go all the way up to Riley to get to it.

I generally don't use Sibley between 4 and 7 pm (I use it in the mornings and at mid-day), so I don't feel I can complain about a 4-7 pm closure. However, I would like to know just how they are going to limit the closure to those hours. Are they really going to have some guy run out there every day at 4 pm and 7 pm to put up and take down the barricades?? I fear this is going to become a de facto 24-hrs-a-day closure.

Sibley Resident, I congratulate you -- I know you have fought for this and I am sympathetic to your woes. I just hope the rest of us don't end up sitting in hopelessly gridlocked traffic, and I hope the poor man who runs the day care center doesn't lose his business.

[Terry]

Don't feel too sorry for Ed who owns the daycare center - I've stopped in there twice and called them 3 times about their OWN DRIVERS who speed on Sibley, Bidwell and Lembi, and who fail to stop fully at stop signs, and who drive in the bike lanes on Lembi. And they were asked by the city to let their clients know the speed limit on Sibley and Bidwell, but it didn't improve things.

He and his clients are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

The barricade Is going to be moveable - I think like they have at state parks where there's a metal pipe gate and fence.

[bordercolliefan]

Terry,

If you are right that Creative Discovery's own drivers are speeding, then that is outrageous -- particularly when they are entrusted to transport children! Parents... take note. (Now I remember why I will never let anyone else drive my kids...)

Still, I do feel for someone who bought what he thought was a viable business (after all, there was a child care center there for years and years). He could in no way have anticipated that the road in front of his center would close -- literally isolating his business from his customers.

I would support other traffic measures to discourage traffic cutting through down to Folsom Blvd, (i.e., no left turns onto Bidwell or Natoma during rush hour) -- but complete closure just seems drastic to me. It always seemed to me that the residents of the area were overreaching when they kept rejecting all other conceivable traffic calming measures and just kept insisting on closure -- made it seem like their true motive was not simply to un-do the effects of the dam road closure, but to achieve a cul-de-sac existence that they never had even before the dam road closed!

Well, we'll see what happens. Any info on why City Council suddenly changed their minds? Any idea when the closure will begin?

[Sibley Resident]

I’m not going to rehash everything that has been discussed on the other thread regarding this. I do feel the need to remind everyone that I and the other residents in this neighborhood are in the same gridlock around town you are. The difference between us and the rest of the city is that we are in it every time we drive around town like you but we are also in it when we pull out of our driveways to the time we pull back in and that gridlock is on our front door steps a considerable amount of the day. The city looked at the times we were most effected and are trying to do something about that time. We have been currently living on a freeway, not in the neighborhood it was just a few short years ago and it still amazes me that there are people out there, that think this is o.k. I guess it must come down to the fact that as long as they are not inconvenienced anymore than they already are, they are perfectly ok with others having to burden so much more, so they do not have to share the burden. I’m sure a significant number of these same people would quickly change there attitudes if it were their home or their neighborhood. Our committee made this recommendation months ago. However, the city wanted to continue analyzing the situation and look over every possibility before they took any measures to help us, especially something like this. They needed to be sure that they looked at every possibility first. Unlike us who live in this neighborhood and know exactly what the problems are the city needed the data to see it for themselves. Only after all of the data came in over the last 6 months and exhausting every possibility, they have agreed that this looks like the best possibility to achieve the results our neighborhood is hoping for and the city would like to provide. As many of you know we have been meeting since October and the data they have been collecting has been prior to that. This is a well thought out plan that is based off of the data and the objective. Commuters need to use the arterial system and not destroy the cities neighborhoods. No one has considered this solution lightly.

In addition we have not rejected any measures, we would accept anything that would help us, anything. However the residents along with city officials, including traffic engineers, after knowing what our problems are and looking at the data and applying every possible scenario, came up with this as the most viable solution. This was not pulled out of thin air. We looked at everything from, no left hand turns to chicanes to speed humps to speed tables to gateways to narrowing roads (you can’t narrow Sibley anymore than it already is) etc.. etc… The idea that we have spent the last 6 months in meetings and analyzing data and doing research and have not considered everything, is ridiculous.

As far as the day care is concerned. I have heard many commits from them that are extremely upsetting. One statement was when you buy a home on a street with businesses you should expect traffic. I guess they can’t figure out that their business is run out of a house and that these houses were here decades before that house was turned into a business. I would like to remind everyone that between Glenn and Natoma is entirely residential except for the one-day care ran out of a home. I would say when you buy/make a business out of a home in a residential neighborhood you should expect the residence to get a little upset. Imagine your next-door neighbor turning their house into a business and when you complain about the traffic, noise, unsafe parking, unsafe driving etc… they tell you to move. I have also heard from them that if we are upset about the traffic than we should all move. It’s easier I guess for the 50+ residences to move leaving their homes, some well over 25, 30, 40 years in these homes and leave thier problem for some one else than it is for a day care run out of a house. The fact that they are running their business in a neighborhood, I would hope that they would be a little bit more considerate to the neighborhood they are in. I have a lot to say about them and the problems they bring to this neighborhood but the last thing we wanted to do was get into a fight with any business. We saw what happened over at Sutter and Coloma with the Sutter Street Merchants vrs residents and we did not want that to happen here. We did everything we could to consider these businesses, including the Day Care. In fact the Day Care still has 4 major accesses to it. For being in a residential neighborhood that is pretty good. I would like to also add that we put so much effort into considering these businesses and how their customers get to them that the Day Care is the only one who I know of that has complained. I do know of several others that actual support us and believe the city needs to help us. We worked long and hard on this with the city and all we are asking from everyone else is to give us a chance to see if it will work and for us to have the hope of getting some relief to these problems and our quality of life and our safety back in our own neighborhood.

[Orangetj]

This is GREAT news! I simply can't understand why anybody would gripe about the road being closed for 3 hours a day. 3 hours a day is not the full closure so many people were worried about. Personally, I'd like to see more constant traffic calming in the area, but this is at least some reprieve. Are those of us who live along this street not entitled to SOME reasonable quality of life??? Basically, we have two states of traffic in the area - backed up bumper to bumper traffic and speeders rocketing through the neighborhood to get wherever they're going. It's not reasonable to have dense traffic running through a neighborhood every day. It's not reasonable that the residents of our own town seem perfectly comfortable cutting down our streets (Sibley, Lembi, Bidwell, etc.) at way over 25 mph. If Folsom's residents and those who travel through Folsom won't be considerate in their use of these streets, the city has a responsibility to step in to protect the residents of the area. The only people who will really be negatively affected by this are those who use Sibley as a bypass for Folsom Boulevard during their commute home. As far as I'm concerned, these people have no business driving down a residential street solely for the purpose of shaving a few minutes off of their commute. I live in this neighborhood and even I make the effort to minimize my number of trips down Sibley. For instance, If I'm up at Walmart and want to get across the river, I drive down Glenn to Folsom, rather than cutting down Lembi and out Sibley to Natoma to Folsom. Unfortunately, many of Folsom's residents aren't willing to take that extra minute or two (I've timed it) to avoid driving through a neighborhood.

Concerning the daycare, I've got a couple of thoughts. First of all, I too have seen their vans once or twice speeding down Sibley (40ish mph) and barely stopping at the intersection of Sibley and Lembi. I have also heard their complaints that any sort of closure will just force them out of business. I find that hard to believe. It seems to me that if the parents who use that daycare are happy with them, they aren't just going to change daycare providers to avoid having to take a couple more minutes to get there. Heck, I work and live in Folsom and drive up to El Dorado Hills to pick my daughter up from daycare - the time it takes to get there is not nearly as important to me as having her at a place I'm comfortable with. Perhaps the day care owners should focus more on providing excellent service as a means to retain their clientele rather than on the accessibility of their facility to within a residential area. As the earlier poster said, there are still several avenues of access to the facility and this will only block one of them.

Congratulations to those who have worked so hard to affect some change for the better in this area.

OrangeTJ

[Lembi Resident]

Thank you Sibley and OrangeTJ. Your posts express the thoughts of so many of us in this neighborhood.

We appreciate that the city is willing to give us a reasonable trial period to hopefully find some relief for our traffic problems. I hope the day care owner and residents will soon come around to a less selfish and more community-spirited attitude.

Thank you Folsom City Council, City staff, and City Police and Fire for your efforts to make this traffic calming trial possible.

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (Sibley Resident @ Mar 28 2004, 10:05 PM)

I would like to remind everyone that between Glenn and Natoma is entirely residential except for the one-day care ran out of a home. I would say when you buy/make a business out of a home in a residential neighborhood you should expect the residence to get a little upset. Imagine your next-door neighbor turning their house into a business and when you complain about the traffic, noise, unsafe parking, unsafe driving etc… they tell you to move. I have also heard from them that if we are upset about the traffic than we should all move.

This is an excellent point! I am trying to remain objective here, but some of the comments the owner of the daycare has made have just been incredible. IMO, he needs to recognize that he is operating a business in the middle of a neighborhood and that the people who actually LIVE there deserve to be treated with some respect, not as adversaries. Given his stance that traffic calming would negatively impact his business, I find it kind of ironic that I had actually considered placing my daughter in daycare there until I heard his comments about closure of the street, or any other efforts to make the street less attractive to through traffic. Once I knew what little regard he held for the community he operates in, there was no way I was going to patronize his business. It seems to me that a reduction of traffic volume in front of his business would be a good thing for the safety of the children attending that school.

[bordercolliefan]

I think it is disingenous to talk about Creative Discoveries Child Care Center as being the same thing as a neighbor running a business out of a house.

First, how many years has that child care center been there? *Many* years. It was Phoenix School for quite a few years and Creative Discoveries bought it a year or so ago. So, this is not some newcomer who suddenly decided to open a business in his or her house.

Second, I have toured that facility and it is hardly a "house." Part of it may have been a house at one time, but for some years now it has been
a full campus with 2 parking lots, at least 2 playgrounds, and at least 2 separate large buildings with 4 or more classrooms. This is NOT a housewife doing child care in her house. They have at least half a dozen staffmembers -- maybe more-- and care for well over 50 children. I know for a fact that when they purchased the property, the current owners invested heavily in upgrading the facility and installing various furnishings and equipment (built in tables, etc.) suited to the infant and toddler set.

I have no particular interest in the child care center one way or the other. But let's be HONEST and not minimize the investment that the day care owner has made.

As I have always said, I am sympathetic to your desire to get the commuters out of your neighborhood and onto the arterials. Surely some well-placed left-turn restrictions would accomplish this goal. But instead you have opted for a "solution" that penalizes your fellow Folsom residents just trying to get to child care centers, schools, and churches in the historic area.

Furthermore, are you really going to be satisfied with a 3-hour a day closure? Or, is this a precursor to demanding a full closure?

Only time will tell the result of this closure. But I predict that in the coming years, the City Council is going to be faced with an endless variety of demands for road closures and restrictions from other neighborhood groups who see their traffic increase as Folsom's population grows. I also fear that the Historic District will go the way of so many other American downtowns where people decide it just isn't worth the hassle to shop OR live there, and the downtown becomes run-down and eventually abandoned.

[Orangetj]

I am sure you are correct that the owners of Creative Discoveries have invested much in the way of money and time into operating a successful business. Additionally, the reality is that they probably have a minimal impact on the traffic in the area. Regardless, it seems to me that a business owner who operates a business in a neighborhood should have some consideration for the residents of the neighborhood. This is not demonstrated by speeding through the neighborhood or fighting against efforts to increase the safety of an area.

I, for one, will support just about any measure to reduce traffic in this area. It does not have to be a full closure, either. Like you said, several strategically placed turn restrictions, plus some physical traffic calming devices (speed humps, chicanes, roundabouts, additional stop signs, etc.) could be very effective.

It is my understanding that the original proposal put forth by the citizen's advisory committe did NOT include closure of Sibley, but instead utilized a variety of other traffic calming measures. Unfortunately, the city did not support the proposal and requested that they go back to the drawing board. It was this second plan that included the break away closure. Perhaps somebody who was involved can chime in here. Do not assume that a full closure is considered the only solution by those who live here. In fact, closure of the street will probably be more of an inconvenience for those of us who live here than it will be for anybody else. Guess what - We're willing to deal with it because the alternative (increasingly heavy traffic and speeders) is worse. Ultimately, we're just looking for some way to reclaim our neighborhood from those who treat it as just another through route or a shortcut to someplace else. I don't cut through neighborhoods (my own included) just to make it easier to get where I'm going...why do others think it's appropriate to do so?

Perhaps your perspective might be different if you spent a week or two in our shoes, with thousands of cars traveling in front of your house each day. Imagine if your own street suddenly became a popular and convenient bypass for arterial routes and 4,000 to 6,000 cars a day started using it. What would you do? Picking up and moving is not an option for everybody. I can accept that there is always going to be some level of traffic volume on these streets since they are "through" streets, but it has gotten past the point of being acceptable. Heck, In the past two years it has gotten significantly worse. What will it be like two years from now?

[Sibley Resident]

QUOTE

I also fear that the Historic District will go the way of so many other American downtowns where people decide it just isn't worth the hassle to shop OR live there, and the downtown becomes run-down and eventually abandoned.

Our point exactly, this is what is happening. The home owners that live here and care about this neighborhood and these homes and have also invested a considerable amount of money, time, effort into making these houses their homes are the ones that are being run out of here.

QUOTE

Surely some well-placed left-turn restrictions would accomplish this goal.

I have already addressed this in the other thread. This would only move the traffic within the neighborhood and not move the traffic out prior to getting here. We have recommended everything from the no left hand turns to speed humps to gateways to diverters on and on and on. We have been shot down on everything because the objective is to move the traffic out of the neighborhood and not to move it around within. The speed humps was nixed by our emergency vehicles who do not want them, for what they feel are very valid reasons, hampering response time and damage to the vehicles. They were able to provide documentation of many cities removing these, because they seem to be more of a problem than a help. The no left hand turns was nixed because they would move the traffic within and not out. We have looked at and considered and applied every possible solution but they have all been turned down for one reason or another, sometimes valid reasons and sometimes I'm not so sure, but they do have their reasons.

It amazes me that anyone would think that we are thrilled about having to cut off access to our own homes or our neighborhood, making us go around because others do not have the courtesy to stay out of a neighborhood. If you are not coming to or from a location within this area. Or are here to appreciate and admire the Historic District and are strictly cutting through from point A to point B, then No you do not belong in here. This is a neighborhood, it may not look like track homes but it is no less of a neighborhood than any other neighborhood, it has homes, driveways, families, children and neighbors. If anyone is going to be inconvenenced by this that is using the neighborhood appropriately, than I would say you should be angry at the ones that are causing these measures to be tried, than at the residents trying to protect their homes and neighborhood

This assumption that those of us that have been educated on the situation, educated on the solutions and have worked with experience people regarding this situation, have not looked at everything is again absolutely ridiculous. It must be nice to sit back and be able to just tell us that we are wrong and are over reaching , however being able to view the data and being informed about the situation and working with those experienced dealing with these situations, we have come up with what we believe will work best to obtain the objective with as little impact to the neighborhood and business as possible. I wish I had the luxury to be talking about someone else’s neighborhood, no, actually that is said out of frustration, I would not wish what we have been going through on anyone else. Again the fact that we are being driven to this, because others do not have any courtesy, and again we are the ones that will have to go the one step further than the rest of the community, being inconvenienced even further just to receive 3 hours a day of relief. Wow, it's amazing that people think we are thrilled about having to do this to get some relief.

If anyone thinks that the city officials and the residents here want to go through all of this if it was not truly believed, that this is necessary, to get the traffic out, is not looking at this objectively. If you believe that we have not applied all the text book solutions and very inventive ideas to this situation trying to resolve this before reaching this conclusion. I don't know what else I can say.

Webmasters note:
I'm just fixing your quote tags, that's all I'm editing...

[bordercolliefan]

No one has answered my question.

Are you satisfied with a 3-hour a day closure, or are you going to keep pushing for full closure?

[Sibley Resident]

The city has asked over and over again for people to stay out of the neighborhoods, to stop cutting through. They have been quoted many times asking this in the Sac Bee and in the Folsom Telegraph, they have asked time and time again at the city council meetings and have even posted the request on the city’s website. It is obvious that simply asking people to respect one another, to respect the neighborhoods and drive like a sane person has not worked. The city officials recommended a 4 hour a day closure from 3pm to 7pm to alleviate the most congested point of the day (documented by the data) in our neighborhood. The city council changed that to 4pm to 7pm. As I have stated over and over again, that our problems are all day, depending on the time of the day it consist of congestion or speeding. The city is trying to reduce the congestion/volume for us and to protect their neighborhoods. I greatly appreciate this and I’m willing to give this an honest try to see if this will reduce it to an acceptable level, so I cannot give you a yes or no answer regarding this until I see the results. Some of us will receive a 3hour benefit of reduced traffic but this comes at a significant cost, yet again to us. We will have to decide along with the city if this cost is worth the benefit after we have tried it. I’m willing to except just about anything that will help us at this point. This does not solve speeding and I will be continuing to pursue relief for that area and depending on this trial and the results, I may or may not be pursuing volume control.

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (bordercolliefan @ Mar 29 2004, 12:10 PM)

No one has answered my question. Are you satisfied with a 3-hour a day closure, or are you going to keep pushing for full closure?

We have yet to see how it works. I don't think the question can be answered until we see what the impact of this partial closure turns out to be. I do think, though, that if this works like we hope it will to reduce traffic volume during the peak of the commute, perhpaps the speeding issue can be dealt with through other measures (physical traffic calming measures). We'll just have to wait and see.

I am particulary interested to see what effect this has on Lembi Drive traffic. On the one hand, I can see it reducing the traffic coming down Lembi dramatically, as it seems most of those people who cut through from Riley subsequently turn right at Sibley. On the other hand, though, the 3 hour a day nature of the closure may confuse people at first so I expect to see more northbound people getting to the roadblock and then turning right onto Lembi to cut up to Riley. Once people get an understanding that they can no longer drive down Sibley to ultimately get to Folsom, perhaps they'll start turning at Glenn (where they should be now) since this will be the fastest way to get across the river. Hopefully this will have the effect of reducing overall volume on Sibley bewteen Glenn and Lembi and the side effect of reducing traffic on Lembi. We'll see. That's the great thing about a "trial" period.

[bordercolliefan]

Where exactly will the barricade be? Will it block both directions at Lembi -- thereby forcing all traffic to turn onto Lembi?

[Lembi Resident]

bordercollie:
In a different thread you mentioned that you live in Natoma Station and that you drive along Sibley during non-peak hours. Why then do you seem to be so consumed with this issue? The traffic patterns of the area in question do not affect you as profoundly as they do the residents. Yet, you are rather aggressively arguing against a trial.

It is a 30-day trial, the results of which will be analyzed at the end of the period. At that point, further decisions will be made. Many of my neighbors and I would find in hard to answer your question about our satisfaction with 3 hours of closure. We would first like to give the trial a chance to alleviate our traffic problems. In the spirit of fairness and community, we ask that you and all other Folsom residents also give it a try.

As we have mentioned before, many neighbors have been discussing these traffic concerns with the City for three years. A citizens' committee, along with City Staff, has put in some exhausting hours over the last 6 months to formulate a rather extensive list of traffic calming options. The limited closure is but one of the measures to be implemented during the trial. If the intended results are not achieved, there are other traffic calming options.

Please do not paint an exaggerated, biased, and dismal picture of the possible results of diverting traffic for 15 out of 168 hours a week. Let's just give it a fair trial. Thank you.