60 replies to this topic

[Bill Z]

Anything greater than 30 seconds and TCP will timeout. Anything less, and "normal use" will go unnoticed, besides being annoyingly slow. If you're just a casual web/email user, no, you likely don't care about "outages", but don't go redefining what an outage is just to make Comcast appear flawless.

And I've never said Comcast was flawless, I've got lots of bones I've picked with them over the years. Everything from turfing my yard to being late on appointments where I had to take a 1/2 day off work for nothing. I will back you 100% when you say their customer service sucks.

[mylo]

I don't think I am re-defining outage. I don't know enough about how the overall system works, but i know that with the total volume of bits being transmitted that some form of time-sharing has to be going on. so i suspect what you are calling an outage is merely their system not receiving or transmitting data to you while it is busy with data elsewhere. That's not to say they couldn't do a better job of how they share the limited transmission resources with all of their customers, but it doesn't mean the system is down and not operating thereby causing a true outage.

I've been a network engineer for 14 years. I even ran my own ISP (in dialup days). I know how the bits get split. Comcast has real "outages". Actual lost routes, dropped packets, etc. that cause greater than an annoyance if you're doing anything besides TCP 80 web browsing. Try maintaining an SSH session through that much loss. Or for the gamers out there watch your ping and lag. It's Comcastic!

My issue is less about the technical infrastructure. Having seen it in the early days, and understanding what they use today, it's technologically sound. I take much greater issues with their lack of customer service, lack of decent change control, and general lack of serious network management.

Overall, as highlighted by their recent packet filtering activities, it demonstrates a complete lack of concern for their customers. They don't care if you're happy. They're a big monopoly that just wants your money and doesn't have to offer decent Internet service.

[Bill Z]

I've been a network engineer for 14 years. I even ran my own ISP (in dialup days). I know how the bits get split. Comcast has real "outages". Actual lost routes, dropped packets, etc. that cause greater than an annoyance if you're doing anything besides TCP 80 web browsing. Try maintaining an SSH session through that much loss. Or for the gamers out there watch your ping and lag. It's Comcastic!

My issue is less about the technical infrastructure. Having seen it in the early days, and understanding what they use today, it's technologically sound. I take much greater issues with their lack of customer service, lack of decent change control, and general lack of serious network management.

Overall, as highlighted by their recent packet filtering activities, it demonstrates a complete lack of concern for their customers. They don't care if you're happy. They're a big monopoly that just wants your money and doesn't have to offer decent Internet service.

See, that's where I disagree with you on what an outage is. The system hasn't stopped working, it's just not working good enough for your usage. In the verancular, most people are going to view an outage as something is broke and it requires someone to do something to fix the problem, what you are calling an outage includes poor system design induced problems that no one needs to work on to get the system up & running again. the system is still running, just not to your satisfaction.

[mylo]

See, that's where I disagree with you on what an outage is. The system hasn't stopped working, it's just not working good enough for your usage. In the verancular, most people are going to view an outage as something is broke and it requires someone to do something to fix the problem, what you are calling an outage includes poor system design induced problems that no one needs to work on to get the system up & running again. the system is still running, just not to your satisfaction.

Again, let me Google that for you:
http://letmegoogleth...nternet service

An Internet service provider (ISP, also called Internet access provider or IAP) is a company that offers their customers access to the Internet. The ISP connects to its customers using a data transmission technology appropriate for delivering Internet Protocol datagrams, such as dial-up, DSL, cable modem or dedicated high-speed interconnects.

If I cannot access the Internet (IE, maintain an SSH connection to a host that I know is available on "The Internet") then my ISP is fundamentally NOT Providing... Internet... Service.

Whatever the reason, be it bad network management, infrastructure fault, lack of capacity, or filtering configuration. It's still an outage of service. Comcast even admits this and this year has refunded more than 1/3rd of my service charges.

[Bill Z]

Again, let me Google that for you:
http://letmegoogleth...nternet service

An Internet service provider (ISP, also called Internet access provider or IAP) is a company that offers their customers access to the Internet. The ISP connects to its customers using a data transmission technology appropriate for delivering Internet Protocol datagrams, such as dial-up, DSL, cable modem or dedicated high-speed interconnects.

If I cannot access the Internet (IE, maintain an SSH connection to a host that I know is available on "The Internet") then my ISP is fundamentally NOT Providing... Internet... Service.

Whatever the reason, be it bad network management, infrastructure fault, lack of capacity, or filtering configuration. It's still an outage of service. Comcast even admits this and this year has refunded more than 1/3rd of my service charges.

Could you maintain an SSH connection (that is greek to me) on a 52k modem? 4.8K modem? If not, then even though they are providing internet service and there is no outage, the system just isn't capable of supporting your needs.

As Comcast is capable of supporting my needs and most users needs, your posting of they have outages 73% of the time or whatever is very misleading to the average consumer.

[mylo]

Could you maintain an SSH connection (that is greek to me) on a 52k modem? 4.8K modem? If not, then even though they are providing internet service and there is no outage, the system just isn't capable of supporting your needs.

As Comcast is capable of supporting my needs and most users needs, your posting of they have outages 73% of the time or whatever is very misleading to the average consumer.

Yes. I have maintained telnet connections on 300baud modems through SLIP/PPP.

My statement is not misleading. Constant outages will affect casual web browsing. Perhaps not as drastically or annoyingly as being disconnected mid-session, but as the Internet grows more streaming media based, you're really going to notice when your phone call to Grandma keeps cutting out randomly.

[Bill Z]

Yes. I have maintained telnet connections on 300baud modems through SLIP/PPP.

My statement is not misleading. Constant outages will affect casual web browsing. Perhaps not as drastically or annoyingly as being disconnected mid-session, but as the Internet grows more streaming media based, you're really going to notice when your phone call to Grandma keeps cutting out randomly.

OK, that would be annoying, but I don't use VOIP, and I don't plan to.

but i still will think of that as poor quality service and not an outage.

Minor interuptions in service, while annoying do not require someone to go out and "fix" the problem to get the system back online. the system is still running, just not to your requirements/expectations/whatever.

[mylo]

OK, that would be annoying, but I don't use VOIP, and I don't plan to.

but i still will think of that as poor quality service and not an outage.

Minor interuptions in service, while annoying do not require someone to go out and "fix" the problem to get the system back online. the system is still running, just not to your requirements/expectations/whatever.

A bad route may clear itself up, may cause itself to fail, or may require human intervention. Either way, it's caused me not to be able to access the Internet. I can't count how many times Comcast has routed my home IP to San Jose or some other whacked out location. I don't know if that's because of bad change control, screwed up EIGRP, typos, or whatever, and I really don't care. I just want to access the Internet! It's the service I pay for and Comcast consistently fails to provide.

[Bill Z]

A bad route may clear itself up, may cause itself to fail, or may require human intervention. Either way, it's caused me not to be able to access the Internet. I can't count how many times Comcast has routed my home IP to San Jose or some other whacked out location. I don't know if that's because of bad change control, screwed up EIGRP, typos, or whatever, and I really don't care. I just want to access the Internet! It's the service I pay for and Comcast consistently fails to provide.

I downloaded a 73MB file the other night. It took a few minutes averaging at >200KB per sec. It did it in one single download attempt. It's the service I pay for and I consistently get it.

It blows the doors off a landline modem I used to use and the ??? (what was pre-DSL that required two landlines) from HP my wife used to have.

[mylo]

It blows the doors off a landline modem I used to use and the ??? (what was pre-DSL that required two landlines) from HP my wife used to have.

ISDN, now reborn as iDSL (or, "I'm too far from the POP" slow DSL) I remember getting my first bonded ISDN and being so happy to get 128k!! After that, I switched to a microwave dish to get 256k, Wooo!

Yes, Comcast is riding the coat tails of broadband cable Internet that @Home helped bring to the masses.

Sadly, however, with their almost complete monopoly (baring limited DSL access and [praise Him] now AT&T UVerse) they have completely bastardized the infrastructure and shaved every hair of decent customer service out of the once-market-leading company I used to love.

Now THAT's Comcastic!

[eVader]

Again, let me Google that for you:
http://letmegoogleth...nternet service

An Internet service provider (ISP, also called Internet access provider or IAP) is a company that offers their customers access to the Internet. The ISP connects to its customers using a data transmission technology appropriate for delivering Internet Protocol datagrams, such as dial-up, DSL, cable modem or dedicated high-speed interconnects.

If I cannot access the Internet (IE, maintain an SSH connection to a host that I know is available on "The Internet") then my ISP is fundamentally NOT Providing... Internet... Service.

Whatever the reason, be it bad network management, infrastructure fault, lack of capacity, or filtering configuration. It's still an outage of service. Comcast even admits this and this year has refunded more than 1/3rd of my service charges.

As Dogbert would say, "The Network is DOWN!!!".

I however don't agree that it can be called an outage. Perhaps a limitation or failure to support all protocols. Should it support SSH?-- Yes. DirectPC satellite Internet service offers web, email, ftp etc but just can't handle an IPSec or Shiva VPN tunnel. It is so bad that a 53K modem VPN is lightening quick (but of course we know it isn't).

[Bill Z]

ISDN, now reborn as iDSL (or, "I'm too far from the POP" slow DSL) I remember getting my first bonded ISDN and being so happy to get 128k!! After that, I switched to a microwave dish to get 256k, Wooo!

Yes, Comcast is riding the coat tails of broadband cable Internet that @Home helped bring to the masses.

Sadly, however, with their almost complete monopoly (baring limited DSL access and [praise Him] now AT&T UVerse) they have completely bastardized the infrastructure and shaved every hair of decent customer service out of the once-market-leading company I used to love.

Now THAT's Comcastic!

Yep, ISDN was what it was.

[mylo]

I however don't agree that it can be called an outage. Perhaps a limitation or failure to support all protocols. Should it support SSH?-- Yes. DirectPC satellite Internet service offers web, email, ftp etc but just can't handle an IPSec or Shiva VPN tunnel. It is so bad that a 53K modem VPN is lightening quick (but of course we know it isn't).

It's not SSH, it's TCP timeouts. The same TCP that times out from web browsing. It just is much more noticeable on a state-full connection like SSH, gaming, VPN, VOIP, etc. etc. etc.

[dlutz]

It's not SSH, it's TCP timeouts. The same TCP that times out from web browsing. It just is much more noticeable on a state-full connection like SSH, gaming, VPN, VOIP, etc. etc. etc.

Mylo,

While I'll always agree with you on their service, their network throttling/shaping, and their monopoly status, I just can't say I've had the same experience with performance.

I know how you and I must sound like the swmr/Chipshot versions of the Tech Forum, but I've not had an outage in probably over 6 months. My speeds are consistent at a solid 8Mbit down bursting to 20Mbit, my uploads are always at 2.5Mbit, and my ping times hover between 30ms and 35ms without fail with virtually no drops or timeouts.

I have Comcast business class which gives me a static IP and I run an SBS server, 5-6 PC's, Xbox360, a Wii, and Vonage all off the connection (sometime all at once). Compared to some DSL I've had in the past, this is the most stable connection I've ever had.

If you can show me something equal or better in the same price range I'd be happy to consider it.

[mylo]

I used to think I just had an unlucky connection with Comcast. Just with any ISP, there's bad lines, bad modems, etc. that can easily cause my symptoms.

4 houses, 7 modems, 5 lines back to the pole, 3 whole house wirings, and an infinite number of "drive-by" truck rolls and countless hours of customer 'service' calls I gave up on that theory.

I talk to Comcast customer service on average once a week. I'm glad you concur on their lack of service, traffic shaping, and monopoly status. Just count yourself fortunate that you haven't had the technical difficulties that have plagued me for most of this century.