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Stop The Madness!


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#1 David

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Posted 31 October 2002 - 01:21 PM

Here are the last few posts from a very lively discussion we were having on the old board. I'd like to keep this one going so here it is...

Folsom First! [guest]
Follow the leader! Posted 10-30-2002 22:56


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Its ashame how many of you have had the wool pulled over your eyes, there is so much fiction in these statements that it makes me sick, First of all does anyone remember the election in either between 1988-1992 when a vote for slow growth or pro growth was on the ballot, the latter one won my a majority, and because of that you are now living in Folsom. It was the decision of the citizens of Folsom to allow growth, but now you all want to change election results, sounds a little familar. If Bob is so great why hasnt he or any of his group ran for office, easy answer, they would not be elected. He may have done some things for Folsom, and if that is the case then my hat is off to you. But I beleive as many others do that he is causing more problems than fixing them. The many problems our city faces, come on this sounds bad, its like were are Rancho Cordova or something, we have problems just like everyone else, but they are sure far from many. If there were that many problems facing Folsom why do our property values continue to rise every year, people are standing in line to purchase our homes when for sale. The Police are the greatest along with the fire department! Betty even stated that, what is with you all, use some common sense when these subjects appear, dont just jump on the band wagon when it drives by because it looks fun. People that are complaining about low income housing in the Praire Oaks area, I bet that ampitheater does not sound to bad now does it. You Mr. Jackson are the type of people that are needed her to bring back logic, it just like the Democrats always saying the Republicans are going to take your social security, yet it never has happened. Thank you for letting my frustaion out.

Tim Mattos

bettyemahan
The above Posted 10-31-2002 00:02


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None of you above is ALL right or ALL wrong. Everyone in Folsom wants what is best for them and for Folsom.

Opinions are great and a part of our American heritage.

What matters here is what is FACT, and what is opinion. The facts speak for themselves!!

David [guest]
Facts speaking for themselves... Posted 10-31-2002 02:37


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OK, since we are now on to facts lets post a few obvious ones as Tim has already started to do.
1. Folsom is the best community in the Sacramento area to live in. Anyone disagree? Just look at Rancho Cordova, Orangevale, Citrus Heights, Carmichael, I could go on. Look at the property values here, they are going up because people like to live here. It's a great city! Well planned and developed!
2. The general plan for the city has worked incredibly well thus far. Sure there are problems associated with growth, but there are also a lot of benefits that outweigh the problems. The City Planning Department should receive an award for making Folsom such an incredible place to live.
3. I welcome continued growth in Folsom because of what I have seen so far. The city is great, and continued growth will provide greater resources and benefits for those who live here now. It seems that some think that continued growth will drain existing resources. Why? Do the people who have lived in Old Town Folsom for 50 years pay for your neighborhood park and aquatic center by themselves? The community benefits from growth and the stores and business that come along with it.
Here's an example of how growth can be positive. I lived in Cerritos down in SoCal and the city developed a mall and automall. Over time the tax revenue generated by these facilities allowed the city to develop absolutely incredible parks, and a library that is better than any other in the state. Sound familiar? The growth of Folsom's population will allow for greater funds to be generated through the mall and additional business that will become a part of the community. We just might great library out of development too!
4. After reading these posts I am puzzled why activists who are so vocal here dislike the city so much? It doesn't make sense? What more do you want from our elected officials. We have a great city because of them. And they are very responsive to constructive criticism. In what other city would the Mayor have an open meeting for anyone who wants to come and discuss problems with him?
I think we have a great city and great elected officials, who while not perfect should be applauded for their efforts not attacked.



#2 jobu

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Posted 31 October 2002 - 01:32 PM

I think everyone feels Folsom is a great place to live, but it's a shame that there are a lot of things that make it frustrating as well.

It's human nature to want to keep improving, and seeing what else we can improve upon... compared to Sacrramento, Citrus Heights, Rancho ordova, etc., Folsom is a GREAT place to live. However I feel there is always room for improvement.

A lot of times too, people fail to realize that the "new" Folsom is not even 10 years old. Every new suburban city looks good at 10 years old. I think people want to make sure Folsom doesn't suffer from sprawl like Citrus Heights, etc did. Lack of planning results in higher crime, more blight, etc. Don't get me wrong, ever since Citrus Heights became a city, it has done a ton to restore the beautification of the city, but the fact that it had become "run-down" in 30 years... we just want to make sure Folsom doesn't suffer the same fate.

#3 EDF

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Posted 31 October 2002 - 04:33 PM

You know Tim... you got it wrong.... our group is not "slow growth"... Instead we are a "grow it right" group....

Are you aware that according to the city's own ordinances are totally lacking in developed park space...

The south of 50 argument is about how you count open space...
We have had in the past folks on the planning commission that thought open space was a front yard....

When I moved to Lexington Hills 13 years ago... the developers promised lots of stuff... but never delivered... it wasn't the a very vocal group got in the face of the city council did things happen... We even formed a neighborhood group... the Lexington Hills Neighborhood Organization...

We've had the city misuse excess Mello Roos funds... excess L&L fees... move some figures around here and there... one of our guys found out about it.. Our group then was instrumental in getting the city to purchase the lots over in Beacon Hill that now have a park... one of the few in the south part of Lexington Hills...

Bob Fish was the one that wrote the grant to get us some trails over there and we organized and got the FOLSOM KIDS PLAY park... So if it wasn't for activists like us... nothing would get done... but of course we could have relied on the city council to do it for us...

If it hadn't been for activism... we wouldn't have the pool on Riley...

Tim Mattos... do you live in Folsom?....

#4 David

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Posted 31 October 2002 - 09:45 PM

EDF,

What an interesting post. Here's what I can't figure out. You say you are not against growth, but it seems like a false statement when "your group" seems to oppose any future development south of the freeway.

According to the Alliance of Folsom Residents Website, (which I think is your group but I am not certain). Your stated goals are...

"Maintain the current City of Folsom boundary and the Sacramento County Urban Services Boundary."

AND

"Limit city spending to the needs of the citizens of Folsom, and eliminate spending which encourages growth outside of Folsom. "

If that is not no growth, what is? Sure there are issues with development, but there are obvious differences between Folsom and Citrus Heights. As an unincorporated area Citrus Heights didn't have much planning, but we do. You are comparing apples and oranges in this respect. That is the reason why Folsom looks better. In 30 years we will continue to see a terrific city that has been well planned out.

Also, from his posting Tim Mattos obviously lives in Folsom. What kind of below the belt comment is...

"Tim Mattos... do you live in Folsom?...."

You seem so paranoid of the infamous developers that you remind me of someone on a witch hunt. Stop attacking people and address the issues.

#5 Folsom First

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 07:54 AM

EDF,

First off , Yes I do live in Folsom, for 30 years, Im very local and seen everything grown and I love it. I lived here when nothing was here so yes I love the growth because I now have endless entertainment now.
If you ever read any of my post before I have always said that if developers promised things to be built, then they better do it, the city should enforce those agreements. As to open space I have reluclantly agreed with Bob on a few items on that list, drive ways no, medians no, front lawns no, but back yards I can go on because some of these backyards in these new homes have hills in the back were things can not be built, plus most are pretty small as well.
So now that we etablished I have been here twice as long as you, should I throw that in your face and say you dont know Folsom, no!

Tim Mattos

#6 EDF

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 08:02 AM

David...

Members of the Alliance don't oppose any future development... by the way the Folsom Alliance comprises all sorts of people... for one I am a real estate broker that would greatly benefit from increased development... and I have... we just want them to build it right....

What we say is we don't believe the city when they say they will save 30% of it as "open space"... how do you define "open space"... we agree about the 30%, but we want the parks along in addition to that... there have been instances where one planning guy thought front yard landscaping was "open space" and could be used in the calculations for compliance in a development agreement.... this has been their history so far... so why would anything change south of 50....

What I object to is the way the city... with the approval of the City Council, has handled things...

#1... we are way way short of active parks... sure they are building some now... in the already developed areas.. many of the parks promised around where I live came in too late for my kids to enjoy... they are grown now... we had a tough time finding ball parks for little league in the early 90's...

#2... school construction is always behind... and we have had to fund two school bonds here in the last 10 years... the developers were behind all the bonds because they benefit without having to pay any of the money for the new impacts...

#3... roads are always behind... what about the Iron Point mess by the high school... or all the construction going on at Oak Avenue Pkwy and Bidwell....

#4... don't tell me you haven't read the paper about the sewer spills... it can't handle the capacity... and who paid for that fine... I didn't hear about any benovelent developers coming in with a check... did you... that's right it was the taxpayers in town... did anyone get fired?... no... oh there is a scandal going on now and they blame a "hostile employee" for all the hub-bub....

#5... I don't know about the developement agreements for the Broadstone Mall now... but I know for a fact that the city agreed to give up some of the sales tax money in a rebate... What about the little Kikoman deal... The Bee pointed out there wasn't that much of a benefit for what we gave up on that... they don't really employ all that many people because of automation... but they want an extension of the tax rebate....

I have been to many city council and planning meetings when in spite of neighborhood complaints... inspite of the law in many cases... approval of projects slicks right on through... because according to them they are "substantially in compliance"... which is a subject view by the council....
You know... they can tweak a requirement here... ignore a code there... mitigate this law over there... and voila... APPROVED!!!!!

What we want is a city council to listen and once in a while throw a bone our way... How about something like the "regional" parks they promised us in their news letters about the east area prior to approval by the city...

And as far as Tim's comment that Bob wouldn't get elected... you know and I know it takes a lot of money to get elected... Even if you are a crook, a liar and incompetant... you can get re-elected because lots of people don't check the facts... their entire lives are in front of the tv.. or taking care of kids... and don't have time.... except for some slick campaign brochures... big ads in the local news papers... and all those big campaign signs...

regarding whether or not Tim lives in town... I heard he didn't.... if I was wrong... I am sorry...

As for a website... I am not part of the Folsom Alliance... but if you go to www.folsomreport.com you will find out more about us and how we feel...




#7 Folsom First

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 10:03 AM

EDF,

Can you tell me one city that is perfect, I didnt think so, and I dont think anyone here said it was. Every growing city has problems, whether it be schools, roads or anything else. Stopping developement is not going to happen, as you said there is to much money flying around, is it right, probally not!
Will a vote happen for across the 50 south area, I doubt it for to many reasons as well. Who ever told you I didnt live here, I would love to know, probally came from someone in your group, something that would not suprise me, since they have the tendancy to go over board!
I can not believe you are able to sit there a say your group is not against growth, has there been anything new into Folsom that they have not opposed, I doubt it.
As to Bob or anyone in your group running for election, if there are that many people out there that support your ideas, I am sure they would be willing to donate some money for your cause, so I stand at my last statement about not being elected!

Tim Mattos

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 11:14 AM

The whole point is not to rehash what hasn't been done correctly and the problems of the past, but to look for leaders
who will plan for the future, which WILL include growth. Eric King has proved to be very thoughtful in balancing the needs
of the city for balanced development and maintenance of the quality of life. Kerri Howell understands there are two sides
to planning as well. There are others who could do so also.

NANCY MITCHELL has experience with leadership in the community. She has a CPA credential and knows how to be
fiscally responsible. She intends to plan for Folsom's future, including those years (soon to come) beyond build out.
She intends to do so with public input. Let's get some people on the council who will represent what we want to see.

Vote for NANCY MITCHELL,
ANDY MORIN,
KERRI HOWELL

#9 NRB

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 11:32 AM

I agree that Andy Morin and Nancy Mitchell will serve the residents of Folsom well. Both candidates went out of their way to answer my questions and address my concerns. They have proven to be both accessible and dedicated to the citizens of Folsom. I chose Steve Fairchild as my third candidate because he believes in the right of Folsom residents to have a say in what happens south of 50 and because, quite honestly, his lack of political experience is refreshing!
Want a dog park in Folsom?
Go to www.FIDO Inc.org

#10 valdossjoyce

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 11:41 AM

I don't think EDF was attacking people---developers aren't people, they're businesses. The businesses are owned and operated by people, but they don't live here. Sure no city is perfect. But if we want Folsom to be great, we have to do our part. That means speaking up when we see something happening that we think is wrong. We've had some bad experiences with City Council in the past, and are trying to prevent that from happening again. This is what's so incredibly fabulous about being an American. In this great nation we're allowed to VOTE, we're allowed to SPEAK OUR MINDS! And that's what this forum is all about. When citizen's criticize their elected officials, they're not being negative, they're being Americans. My parents fled a nation where only party members could vote, and people who talked were "arrested" in the wee hours of the night. Not everybody with good ideas should be running for City Council. Otherwise we'd have hundreds of candidates instead of 8 or whatever. There's a role for every interested person to participate in our city. And every voter should engage the brain, read, debate, etc. If a candidate can't take the heat, then he/she should get out of the kitchen. God bless America!

#11 Folsom First

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 01:32 PM

I think thats were you are wrong, developers are people to, the way I look at it is they may be a bussiness, but they come to our city, spend there money on land purchases and developement, then they have to make sure they manufacture a product that is good, otherwise it dont sell and then they loose money and then we loose property values. They place amenities into these developements to try to stay in the same line, if not to outdo other developements.
After all that is probally why you bought your home were you are now. When we elect people to office, they are to repesent us, the citizens of this city, however there are some who dont like what happenes and makes a roar everytime something has happened that they do not like. If that does not work then they try to sue.
Is there anyone out there who does not like the east area shopping or home area now, it very nice, clean and bustling with people enjoying the quality of life here in Folsom. That was done by developers, so I guess we should say thank you for building the shopping centers!

Tim Mattos

#12 EDF

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 02:14 PM

So Tim...

I haven't seen any so called "amenities" done by the developers ion their own unless there was some protest from the community's involvement... I can look at Lexington Hills where I live...

Look at Briggs Ranch... they are just now getting their only park...

get a grip Tim... All the pro-growth full steam ahead crowd like you just wants more development.. we say... just build it right... put the amenities in... not after you have taken your profit out and left us holding the bag trying to figure out where to get the funding to complete it all....

I guess in your mind all the apartments at the Bidwell/Oak Ave Pkwy/Blue Ravine triangle is ok with you... The city council approved that... we got a few concessions... but they screwed up because the general plan and zoning were not aligned and the general plan takes priority... so they got there deal... of course we got the same old... "well we have to do this or they will sue" statement...

That same argument is being used by the No On "P" crowd...



#13 Folsom First

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 03:13 PM

edf,


First off, use your name, at least the first!

Second, I live in that triangle and love it, nice bike trails and creek!

Third, you get a grip, you are not a build it right group, its more like dont build it type! And dont try telling us otherwise. Your website says it all!

Fourth, The NO on P crowd seems to be winning! We see the future and realize it will come and might as well do it now when its more cost effective, do you understand supply and demand! I doubt it!

Fifth, go hug a tree! biggrin.gif

Tim Mattos

#14 valdossjoyce

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 03:33 PM

Folsom First:

You do miss my point. Developers are in BUSINESS---that doesn't make them good & that doesn't make them bad. But people go into BUSINESS to make a profit. Then they take that profit home to their families to spend where ever they like. They don't have to live in the community where they made their profit. WE DO.

Our city govenment represents us, the PEOPLE, when it negotiaties with the developers/businesses who come here to make profit. That's why we must have smart, savvy, shrewd, honest, people in city government because they're negotiating these deals on OUR behalf. Most importantly, they must be INDEPENDENT--that is, no potential conflict of interest with the BUSINESSES with whom they are negotiating.

A negotiation is an adversarial proceeding. Each side wants to get the best bargain for itself. Council members/candidates who think they represent businesses and developers have it wrong. They represent voters. That's how democracy works. Those of us who live here get to vote. Those who make profits here do not. They should not be getting involved in our politics, but they do so because it can help their business. The money they spend on our political races is a business investment that's made with the goal of improving profit.

It's just that simple. Capitalism and Democracy 101 in a nutshell.

#15 valdossjoyce

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Posted 01 November 2002 - 03:55 PM

P.S. to my last post. Don't try to lump into one "group" those who disagree with you on a particular issue. Maybe there are some who "make a roar and then try to sue" whenever things don't go their way. But I'm not one of them. I always try doing things nicely first. Get the information, form an opinion, tell city council what I think, debate with my neighbors, etc. And I don't sue my city. It's like getting screwed by my lawyers twice (I'd have to pay the lawyer bringing my lawsuit and then pay for the city's lawyers defending my lawsuit)--it's not my style. But if, after trying gentle persuasion, I have to up the volume a bit then I will eventually ROAR--and by golly, the 1st amendment to the US Constitution guarantees my right to ROAR!




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