147 replies to this topic

[October15]

God certainly does a mean Wash & Wax.
[attachment=1300:carwash.jpg]

yikes.

[Carl G]

I was speaking specifically of the idea of the Trinity.

Was it at the Council of Nicaea in 325 when the Trinity dogma was solidified?

Critics of the Bible say that the Trinity concept is unique to the New Testament which is why I pointed out the Genesis reference. As a side note - A Jewish friend did not believe the wording when of the Genesis passage; she felt it was a Christian change to the Old Testament. She went back to her copy of the Torah and was surprised to see the exact same thing.

One principle of understanding is letting Scripture interpret scripture. The New Testament very clearly identifies the Trinity. For example, Jesus gave the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20 NIV) with these words: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." There are many other New Testament references.

The Trinity was not fully known in the Old Testament, but there are references to all three persons of the Trinity. God is referenced throughout the Old Testament. Here are some references to the Holy Spirit:

Genesis 1:2 - Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Psalms 104:30 - When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the earth.

Zechariah 4:6 - So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.

Remember I mentioned earlier that you should use Scripture to interpret Scripture. Here is a New Testament reference to Christ found in John 1:1-5 -

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Looking back the the creation account you repeatedly see "And God said" which is understood to be Christ carrying out the work. So in the first three verses of the Bible you see God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son.

Other Old Testament scripture supporting this concept is Psalms 33:6 - By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth. And Proverbs 8:27 - I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep. And Psalms 107:20 - He sent forth his word and healed them; he rescued them from the grave.

Finally, the term "the angle of the Lord" can often, but not always, be seen as a reference to Christ. http://www.biblegate...q...amp;x=0&y=0

[bishmasterb]

Carl,

Perhaps you can list a direct OT reference to God as the Son? Surely, such a fundamental part of Christian dogma would be outlined directly in the OT, instead of vague, ambiguous references.

[Carl G]

Carl,

Perhaps you can list a direct OT reference to God as the Son? Surely, such a fundamental part of Christian dogma would be outlined directly in the OT, instead of vague, ambiguous references.

Here are some passages from Isaiah:

42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.

where the servant it Christ. And

48:16 where the Messiah is speaking and all three persons are mentioned:
"Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.

and finally 61:1 where Christ is speaking

The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,

It should also be noted that in the New Testament that Christ referred God as his Father (John 5:17-18) - Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Please note they did not deny that God had a Son. Isaiah teaches that. Their objection was that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Please note that in their minds the Son is equal with God.

[Ras712]

I believe:

The whole is more than the sum of it's parts.

I believe in:
The conservation of matter.
The conservation of energy.
What goes around comes around.
Love.

I give thanks, but don't name whom/what I thank, I think being truly grateful is enough.

AND-

You can't convince anyone to believe anything, so why bother?!?

[bishmasterb]

Carl,

Thanks for the response. But none of those OT references refer to a God as a Son. Are you aware of any OT references that refer to God as Son.

Again, if the Trinity is a fundamental cornerstone of Christian belief, I find it hard to believe that God would have not been clear about it.

[bishmasterb]

I believe:

The whole is more than the sum of it's parts.

I believe in:
The conservation of matter.
The conservation of energy.

Just curious...if matter and energy are conserved, how is the whole greater than the sum of the parts?

[Ras712]

*mind blown*

uhhh... that must be where the mystery comes in.

[Mrs.D]

People are never consistent in what they attribute to God.

I've had many wonderful things happen in my life. I am as thankful for those things as any religious person -- I try never to take for granted the good things that happen in life.

At the same time, if I attributed those good things to God's interference, then I would also have to blame him for all the terrible things I see: a friend's child suffering a painful disease; a child who never knows the security of a 2-parent family because her parents divorce acrimoniously; a family victimized by a dishonest employee.

After a while, God doesn't seem so great anymore. Or maybe, he just doesn't interfere in our lives day by day as people seem to assume.

I cringe when I hear people rationalize awful things as some greater plan of God: "Well, it was terrible she got cancer, but it was God's way of helping her see what was really important in life." We don't talk that way about people: "Well, it was awful that he murdered your sister, but at least his actions helped you appreciate your remaining siblings more." --So, why do we give God -- who supposedly is powerful enough to do ANYTHING -- so much leeway?

I am currently reading "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold S. Kushner (a Rabbi- I mention this because I would take what is written differently if it were written by some non-religious leader. I personally associate myself with Methodist, but no label seems perfect to describe my beliefs). I am reading this because my stepmom's cancer has gotten significantly worse and I was confronted with the reality that she will most likely die in the next couple of years (I am attempting to be overly optimisitic- I do know that we will be very grateful for more than a year let alone a couple years). Other than losing my grandparents when I was younger, I have never had to deal with death-no friends, no family members. I used to believe that things happened for a reason. That every person was put on this earth for a purpose and that if they died 'prematurely' that either the purpose had been served or that a purpose was being served with their death and that it was up to the people around them to not let the purpose go unnoticed. Now I am just mad as heck and trying to figure it out. There is no way that I will learn all that my mom has to teach me before she dies. There is no way that my dad will be 'better off' because at least he had her in his life for a short time. So I turned to this book. I am still reading so I have no great wisdom to share...but I do know that this book is helping me put things into perspective. It is comforting to read about a religious leader questioning blind faith--asking how a women sitting in the hospital after being hit by a drunk driver can say that "God saved her" when down the hall there is a family grieving the death of their son/daughter/mother/father(insert family/friend) by a different drunk driver. If both people were "good" and "moral", why would God save one, but not the other? It may make the person who survived feel better, but does telling a grieving family that it was 'Gods plan' make them feel better about their loss? I also don't think God has bad things happen to good people to test their faith- although I used to believe that God would never give me more than I could handle. So I try and take all of this and make sense of it.

I thought I might have some great conclusion to end my post, but I don't. I don't know what I believe - or atleast I don't know how to articulate it. But I do know that bad things happen to lots of good people and when they do, it really stinks. Thanks for reading.

[cw68]

People are never consistent in what they attribute to God.

There are definitely many ways to look at the same thing.

A few years ago, my sister tried to commit suicide. She called me from her cell phone to say "goodbye" and told me she had taken a bottle of pills at her home in Wisconsin. I called 911 on my cell and CHP connected me with the local agency in her county. They called me when they arrived on her doorstep to find an empty house. Apparently, she drove away so that nobody could find her.

Though she lives in a fairly small town, nobody could find her. A couple of hours passed and time was almost running out. Suddenly, I called the officer assigned to me and asked if anyone had checked the hockey rink or the driving range. Turns out she was in the parking lot of the driving range, they found her in time and her attempt at ending her life wasn't successful.

During this time, her husband (my bro-in-law) was stationed in Kuwait with the Army. While over there, he reconnected with God. One time he asked me, "How can you not believe in God? He told you, all the way in California, where Kathy was that night, all the way in Wisconsin. What other proof do you need?"

I responded, "That wasn't God, that was common sense. My sister is a hockey and golf Mom and has driven to these places literally thousands of times in the past few years. I was just thinking of where she would drive to simply out of muscle memory." My sister said the last thing she remembers is driving erratically and remembering that she only wanted to kill herself, not others and she chose to go to the driving range because she could get there with her eyes closed.

So we both see something different from the same thing. My bro-in-law sees a miracle and I just see common sense.

[October15]

I am currently reading "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold S. Kushner (a Rabbi- I mention this because I would take what is written differently if it were written by some non-religious leader. I personally associate myself with Methodist, but no label seems perfect to describe my beliefs). I am reading this because my stepmom's cancer has gotten significantly worse and I was confronted with the reality that she will most likely die in the next couple of years (I am attempting to be overly optimisitic- I do know that we will be very grateful for more than a year let alone a couple years).

Now I am just mad as heck and trying to figure it out. There is no way that I will learn all that my mom has to teach me before she dies. There is no way that my dad will be 'better off' because at least he had her in his life for a short time.
...

I thought I might have some great conclusion to end my post, but I don't. I don't know what I believe - or atleast I don't know how to articulate it. But I do know that bad things happen to lots of good people and when they do, it really stinks. Thanks for reading.

Hey....I have a friend who lost a long battle with cancer with her mom. She's an incredible e-mailer...funny and kind...if you'd like someone to walk alongside of this with you...she might be a good person. PM me and I'll check with her if that would help.

[Andrea V]

There are definitely many ways to look at the same thing.

A few years ago, my sister tried to commit suicide. She called me from her cell phone to say "goodbye" and told me she had taken a bottle of pills at her home in Wisconsin. I called 911 on my cell and CHP connected me with the local agency in her county. They called me when they arrived on her doorstep to find an empty house. Apparently, she drove away so that nobody could find her.

Though she lives in a fairly small town, nobody could find her. A couple of hours passed and time was almost running out. Suddenly, I called the officer assigned to me and asked if anyone had checked the hockey rink or the driving range. Turns out she was in the parking lot of the driving range, they found her in time and her attempt at ending her life wasn't successful.

During this time, her husband (my bro-in-law) was stationed in Kuwait with the Army. While over there, he reconnected with God. One time he asked me, "How can you not believe in God? He told you, all the way in California, where Kathy was that night, all the way in Wisconsin. What other proof do you need?"

I responded, "That wasn't God, that was common sense. My sister is a hockey and golf Mom and has driven to these places literally thousands of times in the past few years. I was just thinking of where she would drive to simply out of muscle memory." My sister said the last thing she remembers is driving erratically and remembering that she only wanted to kill herself, not others and she chose to go to the driving range because she could get there with her eyes closed.

So we both see something different from the same thing. My bro-in-law sees a miracle and I just see common sense.

I agree with you! Just because you are smart enough to but 2 and 2 together, does not mean god did it for you! HA

[Carl G]

Carl,

Thanks for the response. But none of those OT references refer to a God as a Son. Are you aware of any OT references that refer to God as Son.

Again, if the Trinity is a fundamental cornerstone of Christian belief, I find it hard to believe that God would have not been clear about it.

I'll have to do a bit more research on that one. But let me say this. I believe you yourself said you do not understand the whole concept of the Trinity. Don't feel bad, no one does. The Trinity is one of the mysteries of the Christian faith. I'm quite comfortable to say we will not understand it until we get to heaven. Then all those things will be made clear.

I do not believe that we humans can begin to comprehend all the greatness and glory that is God. As such he has not reveled himself to us. That is coming. In fact, we have great difficulty understanding even what we have been told. When talking about the understanding of God, I like to draw a parallel with math. When you started learning math you make have first played with numbers, then learned to count, then count is patterns (2, 4, 6, etc.), then learned math, then subtraction, then multiplication and division, then fractions, then algebra, then geometry, then trigonometry, then calculus, then ....

You started with the simple stuff and built on that foundation until you understood some fairly advanced math. The same is true for religion. God did not start us with religious calculus. He started us with simple counting. As we could understand and handle more, more was reveled.

The concept of the Trinity get more fully developed in the Epistles of the NT. The point that should be noted is there is nothing in the OT that is contradicted by the NT. In fact the NT helps us to understand better what God is telling us in the OT.


In the OT Christ is called many things. Look at the passage below talking about a 'son' and calling him 'Mighty God.'

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

[chris v]

I take it you have never had anything miraculous happen in your life.

If I told you, you would never believe it....

Midgets riding Unicorns dude, MIDGETS and UNICORNS!

[Dave Burrell]

I believe in God, but I don't believe in paying a minister 20% of my salary to tell me how to live, so that he can drive a Cadillac - plus I can talk to God for free anytime I want - don't need a middle man to do it for me.

IMO, too many religions these days are just a big $$ business - look how large some of the churches have become around here - it looks to me like those churches are more concerned with revenue income and building bigger places then they are about teaching people about God.

Why do people/religions need multi-million dollar super structures ? Is it because they are materialistic?