34 replies to this topic

[EDF]

TO: NRB and OctoberLily

First of all I am not a chicken hawk... I served in the Air Force during the Vietnam War although I was ordered to Kwang Ju, Korea...if ordered to go to a war zone... I would have gone... I just got lucky....

My dad flew missions in Alaska on a B-24 as a bombadier during WW2... and was a career air force officer... which means I was an Air Force brat... my brother also served in the Air Force and both he and my dad spent time in country (Vietnam)... Phu Cat and Camron Bay...My Grandfater fought in WW 1... my ancestors also fought in the Civil War... None of us wanted war.. but we were fighting for our country and the things it stands for...

I would have no problem if my sons were needed to fight a war... you folks don't seem to understand that we are in a war for our survival that is different than any other war... if they were killed.. sure I would be sad... but I would still be proud...

The elites that have allowed these "sum bitches" in our country in the name of political correctness and diversity and look what it gets us...

I don't care one damn bit if we go and bomb the Arab Middle east back into the stone age... and I don't care one damn bit what they think of us... They hate us and want our stuff that's all I need to know... I don't care how many of them we kill... I don't want even one our boys to get killed...

Those folks know one thing and that is strength and the willingness to use it... right now they don't respect us... they think most of us are like you two... gutless....

I know history and if we don't take care of this problem know we are bound to repeat it... have you ever heard of the Roman Empire... illegal immigration and the lack of a moral compass is what caused its fall.... sound familiar?

[OctoberLily]

I have to retract what I said about Bush Sr. I believe that he did serve in the military. My mistake. Sorry about that.

I think war is not going to solve any of our problems. If we go to war with Iraq because they have nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction, are we going to go to war with North Korea as well?

What about the other countries who have these same weapons? Are we going to go to war with them too?

If we go to war, our economy would be hurt and that is what the people who are against the U.S. want the most. They have no respect for life - they showed us that on 9/11. Therefore, killing is nothing to them. They are will to send their own children to die for their cause. What they want the most is to hurt our economy - otherwords, hurt us where it will hurt the most - in our pocket books.

The Bush family have a lot to gain if we go to war with Iraq. They are in the oil business. If we go to war, oil prices will go up. Oil supply will be scarce and who stands to gain if that happens?

EDF, you fought in Vietnam. I know Marines who fought in Vietnam and I know many of them would rather forget that war than to return there again in the future.

It is in the Terrorists benefit if we declare war on all the countries who harbor them. That is why they are all over the world.

As far as your comment about being gutless. . .I won't take that personally.
You don't know me so I know that your comment is based on emotion - not fact.

[EDF]

Bush Sr. was the youngest fighter pilot I think in the US Navy during WWII

he was shot down but rescued by a submarine... there is footage of it... I think it was used during the campaign in 1988...

Dubya... did fly in the Texas Air National Guard....

I did not serve any time in country during the Vietnam war.. I was stationed in Korea.....

If we don't go to war and destroy these bastards we will be destroyed...

and as far as being gutless you are right... it wasn't personal because I don't know you..

you don't seem to understand that these Muslims have these private schools called Madrasas... I am not sure about the spelling... but they teach young kids from a very early age to hate anyone but Muslims... they are told tht if they die for Allah in Jihad they will get 73 virgins in heaven...laugh but that is the truth...

its really a war of cultures... and I for one think ours is the best... don't you?... they all want to come here don't they... trouble is they don't assimilate... they want to bring their sewer of a culture here... I reject them....

other than that.. I don't really have an opinion

[April]

I found an article that will answer many questions about oil and if we are going to war for oil ,or not.

Please go to: http://www.fromthewi...02_caspian.html

I'm sure it will enlighten many.

[bettyemahan]

Amen EDF-!!!-------Those long legged birds aren't the only ones who stick their heads in the sand!

To state that going to war benifits the Bush family is so stupid it is funny. I guess what they mean is all the oil all those terrorist supporters are sitting on and we pay through the nose for!! Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the rest, including Kwait that Bush Sr. fought to save!!!

How can anyone believe you, I, Bush, or any of us wants anyone to be killed in a war???!! All those terrorists countries are connected and they killed 3000 in NY!!! Wake up!!!!!

It is our Pres. who knows we have more oil under Alaska than all of those put together and that the drilling to get at wouldn't hurt the environment a mm as much as the fires burned in fireplaces every winter day by most people talking down getting rid of Ben Laden's buddy!!!!!.

[April]

Well, I believe in defending ourselves and our country, but it's like this........when your home land is attacked, you should think about the people there first, you know, secure the home lands? But we have not got enough people on our borders, or at our air ports, or at our sea ports, to check cargo as needed, because there is too much coming in.
We are not ready for another attack, like the one at the World Trade Center; they even said that on TV.
So why don't we close our borders?
Why don't we stop trade with those countries who won't back us up?
Why isn't immigration stopped temporarily?
Why are people from other countries still allowed to come in and out of our country?
Why isn't there more done to keep us safe, here at home?
And why are we sending all our troops over there, when we just may need them here?

One thing everyone is concerned about is the fact that once war starts, we will get attacked again, because our CIA and our FBI are not capable of stopping it.
They have said themselves, that they can not catch every e-mail, or phones conversation, and that the way information is shared by the Terrorist, it is hard to decipher.

I personally feel that we will spend a ton of money going to war, and then afterwards, we will have NO Saddam Hussein....he will escape. Just as we have NO Bin Laden, because HE escaped.
If you don't mind a big income tax increase, fine. But our nation is in debt and just like with California and it's huge shortfall, we, the tax payers, will pay the bill for generations for this war.
It's all fine and good to defend one's country, but I don't think we have a very good batting average here. Look at the recent past, how many times have we marched off to defend this or that, and come back without the prize.
This will be no different, watch and see. But the good thing is, the weapons companies
will make a ton of money.
The bad thing is, war will keep people's attention off what they should be paying attention to...........the way our country is being poorly run and the "Pork Belly politics.
I want the economy fixed, and our home land safe, first.
If we don't get the economy turned around in a hurry, we may not have a country too much longer.

[bettyemahan]

The economy is where it is because-----

[bettyemahan]

The economy is where it is BECAUSE WE WERE ATTACKED BY TERRORISTS, for one reason----for another because billions have to be spent BRINGING THE MILITRY AND DEFENSE BACK after that traitor Clinton trashed the military bases, gave and sold secrets away, and did nothing about improving our borders----he in fact, opened them up with that deal with Mexico! GET REAL! It takes money to defend, protect, and rebuild!!! Sit back and wait for the next accack from the NEXT MAIN TERRORIST IN LINE, who supplied Saddam, and THEN we won't have a country to worry about, much less an economy!

[camay2327]

April, you and some other on these boards seem to feel strongly about certain things.
Have you written the president, your congressmen (women)?

I served 22 years in the Navy and spent 1 1/2 years in VietNam during the 1967-1969 time frame. Yes, I came back through Travis Air Force Base and San Francisco. Yes I saw
the people taunting and spitting on our troops. We went because we were in the service
and told, ordered to go. We did what we had to do and a lot of people did not come back. They did do their job, however.

If you come from a military family, you would understand.

I do believe that we need to defend our own country. I do believe we need to stop
illegals from coming into the country and kick out the ones that are already here.

Why should we be spending our hard earned money for schooling, medical and whatever
for illegals.

I guess someone got me started.

Cal

[April]

Cal,

Your question about me writing to my congressman....what are you saying? Are you saying I should not be posting to this board like everyone else? I should shut up and let the rest of you have your say, but should not have mine? I’ll choose to let that question pass, rather than get angry. Whether I have written anything to my congressman is not germane to the subject at hand. Rather than attack me personally, you should try to address the issue.

I’m a very rational person....or try very hard to be. I try to take myself, and my ego, out of the situation, when I run into a problem. I question my opinions, and look for data to provide some insight, then question my opinions once more. Regardless of the way I feel, emotions have seldom brought me the answers I need, when I have a problem.

I do know there is a time to feel and a time to think. I do know that in defending myself, it is better to think, than feel. Going off half cocked will get you beaten every time.

A well placed punch is much better than an emotional jab, and you need to think when you fight. Other wise, your emotions get in the way. Your service training should have taught you this.

I also know there are other things one can do when confronted, than attack with physical force. One should consider other advantages, instead of attacking when emotions are out of control. And one should try to insure that no innocent lives be lost.

As this world is entering a time of high technology, and we hopefully are becoming a more evolved race of beings, I would hope that to kill and pillage would soon be coming to an end, in regards to solving our problems. We can’t dismiss the fact that war kills and injures innocent lives, and seldom gets the guys at the top, who are the real problems.

If we dismiss this, we have not come any further than our brothers of the stone age.

This country seems to be getting more and more violet, and our TV, movies and music is evidence to that. I’d rather use my brains to get what I need, rather than hit somebody other the head with a club. Might, is not always right.

Your statement regarding being in the service and from a military family......I can only guess that has some relevance because you feel I attacked the service men somehow, in my post.

My father was in WW II, I had three uncles in the Navy and my husband is a Vietnam Vet. But that does not make my opinions more valid, or less so. Does it yours?

What is it I am supposed to understand? That in the military the mentality is to strike first, and ask questions later?

I do not blame our troops for the failure of some of our missions. I blame the poor planning on the part of our military leaders. I also blame the motives of our country, in always thinking that to fight with bombs and bullets is the only way to resolve a problem.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to blow Sadam Hussein right off the map, along with Bin Laden. But I sure wouldn’t give them six months warning before I did it!

I have more of a "Sniper" attitude. Down and dirty, quick and simple. Take the main guy out, and leave the citizens alone. But then we couldn’t use all those weapons the military has bought and made for with our money.

But if you noticed, there was a lot of talk about attacking Afghanistan before we actually did it. Bin Laden had more than enough time to get into hiding, and that’s what he did.

And he got away, little surprise. Others died, some children died, but Bin Laden is still alive. Our Special Forces or Black Opts could have dealt with him, and he’d be dead now.

Why didn’t they?

Can you please explain to me why our president had to talk so much before acting?????

Almost every night on the news, there he was, saying the same thing over and over, about how we were going to get Bin Laden. But we DIDN’T!

And here we have the same thing with Sadam Hussein. He has had all kinds of time to hide his weapons, because there was all this talk before we went over there. I’m sure Bush didn’t have to give that information to the press. So when we get there, naturally, Sadam’s weapons are gone.

It’s one thing to defend yourself, but quite another to stand on the highest mountain and scream about the fact that you are going to, for months on end.

If I’m going to come after you, I’m sure not going to let you know it! I’ll hit you so hard, with such surprise, that you won’t see it coming. I’ll sure not give you time to prepare.

And I won’t harm your family or neighbors in the process!

And yes, I understand there are rules set by the United Nations regarding war. But I don’t think they require six months notice or tons of press coverage regarding our plans to attack. That is all fan fair for politics.

As far as not allowing illegals into this country, the terrorist that attacked the World Trade Center were allowed here LEGALLY on the grounds they were going to attend college. THEY were not illegal! The fact is, they were not kept track of and not picked up when their Vistas expired. The INS did not do their job! They have not done their job for decades, and are allowed to make excuses, rather than be held accountable.

Solution: Stop all those entering the United States and turn them back at the borders.

Track down those who are here illegally and kick them out. Find those who have been legally here for under six years and keep track of their every move. And stop all imports, until we have enough man power to check every single box and package.

Very little of this has been done, to the detriment of our welfare and safety. Our very lives have been put into jeopardy by our own government, with their lack of focus on protecting this country. Instead, they focus on war over seas.

Instead, we get frequent warnings of terrorist attacks that have hurt the economy and put fear into our lives.

It’s like opening all the doors and windows of your house, in the middle of the night, and then telling your children there is a chance criminals will come in and kill them. But not to worry, you will go get them and hurt them if they do. Simply insane.

The United States has a very bad reputation around the world. We need to ask ourselves why and try to fix that. But instead, we get on the defensive and try to justify our position and tell the world how powerful we are, and how we will attack all who cross us.

Our government has dealt with the lowest of the low in the past, in order to obtain their goals. Thus our involvement with Bin Laden. Has it occurred to anyone that this is similar to the drug dealer getting killed by his client????? Does our government really need to go about it’s business this way.

Would you tell your son or daughter to go hang with the meanest kid in school, in order to get cheap tickets to the Basket Ball game? Well, that is exactly what our government did. Is it such a surprise that tactic turned around and bit us in the butt?

Will the Bush family gain from getting more oil from Afghanistan? Do the research before you balk. Will we stop terrorism by attacking Iraq? I don’t think so.

We are fighting a new kind of war here. A war where the soldiers welcome death if they think they can go to heaven and be with those virgins. These soldiers are cunning and their weapons are simple. They managed to kill thousands of our people without ever dropping a bomb or firing a bullet. It’s time for us to reexamine how we fight, and what we are willing to sacrifice, to cling to our out dated notions of conflict.

I think it’s time to stop getting emotional about issues and start asking some questions.

This patriotic, gum waving mentality has not gotten us very far in the past, without us losing thousands of our sons and daughters. If we call ourselves intelligent people, surely we can see that the future of weapons is becoming very nasty and could result in generations of genetic mutations, if not the killing of millions all at once.

The next war will not be just bombs and bullets, but weapons beyond your worst nightmares. The death and suffering will be horrendous and we just may lose.

And worse, the United States may cease to exist.

If you think that is not possible, you need to get more information. This country has discounted the ability of anyone bringing it down, and that is very very dangerous.

It was the real reason we had the attack of the World Trade Center.

I feel that if we attack another country, we will have all we can handle on the home front, just to keep the attacks here at a minimum. And don’t be fooled.....we will get the worse they have in regards to terrorist attacks. They haven’t pulled out their nastiest tricks yet.

This is a new dawn and we should realize we have a different kind of monster on our hands, than in passed confrontations. Careful planning and a different approach is called for, not more of the same as in the past. Our nation needs a different policy, we just CAN NOT have business as usual.

[OctoberLily]

EDF, Camay and April all have a valid points.

April, In my reading of Camay's post, I think he was actually agreeing with you and not discounting your messages. Any event, I actually agree with your post above.

We are going into war with a country we - the U.S. - helped stock military arms during their war with Iran.

We also assisted Bin Laden army with military arms during Afganistan's war with the Soviets.

At this time, we have provided Israel with military arms against the Palestinians. I worry about this country and the future relationship with the U.S. when we stop supporting there land hogging battles with the Palestinians.

It's quite ironic to me that now 2 out of 3 countries that we have sold or given military arms to in the past are now intending to use those military weapons against the U.S.

It's also ironic that we haven't been able to topple Saddam Hussien in the past. We still haven't found Bin Laden. And now North Korea is taunting us and the World with their weapons of mass destruction. They are simply thumbing their noses at us as if to say - come and get us to!

Our military weapons and our "LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD!!" attitude is the reason why the Muslims and other terrorists groups hate the U.S. Government. They see us as the "root of all evil" because WE (the U.S.) create these weapons for killing and we willingly offer these weapons to them in their war if it benefits the agenda of our government. We have made one friend and many enemies. However, our "friends" have turned their backs against us once they have the weapons in their hands and we act surprised?

I do not support this war and wrote to the President when I heard we were going to war and I told him what my thoughts were about it. I'm not sure if that helped his decision one way or another but I sent it to at least clear my mind that I did not sit idly by and watch more of my friends and family get exposed to biological weapons. I reminded him of the way the military soldiers were treated when they returned from the Gulf and how many suffered. I reminded him of the deliberate attempts of the Government to deny these Gulf War veterans their right to medical help from being exposed to biological weapons by their denying their diseases. I also asked him to prevent such travesties from happening again to our soldiers today and in the future.

April was on point when she said we - the U.S. - are vulnerable to another attack if we rush into war with Iraq. Our country is not secure and we have been infiltrated and the enemies are here - waiting. . .

This means that not just U.S. soldiers will be exposed to biological weapons but also the entire U.S. population. That means you, your spouse, your children, grandchildren and everyone else that you know of. We CANNOT allow this to happen. We are NOT secure in the U.S. We need to prevent a biological war from happening HERE in our country.

I'm not saying run and hide your head in the sand. I, too, want justice to be served because of all the people that have died from the WTC and the Pentagon. I want justice for the way our lives have changed since 9/11 but we cannot rush into war unprepared.

9/11 wasn't an after thought. It was a well planned event. They planned this for years and the U.S. was aware that something was coming. Airlines were forewarned but they did not want to pay the expense of making their planes safe. If they are going bankrupt now - it was their own fault. They played a part in allowing the 9/11 tragedies to take place because it was not in their financial well being to take strategies to prevent a take over of their planes.

These terrorists also waited patiently while Clinton as President closed many military bases down and allowed many soldiers to retire and opt out of their military contract because he felt the military was the least necessary item on their agenda. They saw our military being stripped down to the core. Once Bush became President, they saw an opportunity to retaliate against the U.S. and humiliate the son of the President who attacked "one of their own" during the Gulf War.

Just as all of these attacks were planned. . . they have warned us that more are to come.

I have my reservations against war because it will leave the door open for more attacks in our country. I also strongly believe that our government is not prepared for it. Our military is not prepared for the kind of war they are going to fight. This war does not involve rifles, marksmanship and strategy. This war involves biological and chemical weapons being dispersed in the air, water and land. It's hard to fight something you cannot see. We can not rush into war unprepared because the battle is not just going to be in the Middle East but at home - right here where you and I live.

I fear for all of us.

[camay2327]

April, you do have the right to say what you want on this board. I wouldn't say otherwise.

I only asked if you had written the president and senator's, etc. I have several times
in the past. Maybe it doesn't help, maybe it does.

Enough said.

Cal

[valdossjoyce]

So many good points made by people who disagree. I love it. That's because our problems are complex. Politicians and the media try to break them down into digestible sound bites for the ADD masses.

My thoughts, yes, war is heck. No question about it--my parents suffered big-time from WWII. (read about it on p. 4 of this week's Folsom Telegraph). I read somewhere (The Art of War???) that the wisest general is the one who loves his troops as men and nevertheless makes the decision to send them into battle, because then he has truly agonized over the decision and has probably made the correct one. I think those who say Bush is making war policy simply to benefit his oil cronies and his own investments underestimate him. He's not that shallow and he's not evil. And just because he's not in the battle, he's no worse than most other leaders. Historically, the leaders who send soldiers to war are rich old men. The soldiers who die on the front lines typically are young and from poor families. It's been that way for centuries in most countries.

If there's anything personal about his sabre-rattling with Iraq at all, I think it's a family thing--he's going to finish the job his dad failed to finish. Dad should have concluded the Gulf war by allowing our forces to march on to Baghdad, but he was too concerned about maintaing our good guy image and retaining the support of nations who seldom give us much support anyway. But more likely, I believe Dubbya sees a connection between 9/11 and Iraq and a whole lot of other countries who help the terrorists.

I don't see why we can't "fight terrorism at home" and fight wars abroad, if necessary. Some of you guys make it sound like an either/or proposition. One involves military personnel, the other CIA, FBI, INS, etc. The only conflict might be budgetary.

And before anyone gripes about the CIA/FBI inability to protect us from another 9/11, think about it for a minute. How can every citizen of a nation of our size be guaranteed safety from people who are filled with hatred and have no fear of suicide missions? It's an impossible task. Measures are being taken to secure the borders, keep tabs on foreignors, etc. but many of the same folks who are outraged at the thought of war express even greater outrage every time our government attempts to do anything meaningful for security on our soil. They seem to want it both ways. Preserve civil liberties, don't trample on anybody's rights, don'toffend anybody by profiling, and yes, please guarantee my safety because there'll be heck to pay for the next 9/11.

And we wonder why other nations laugh at us? We are perceived as soft. We want war--but only if not one innocent life is lost and no American soldier dies. We want to stop terrorism--but don't want to offend the thousands of "out-of-status" foreignors living among us. We don't even dare call those who come here illegally "illegal aliens"; they're just "undocumented". Our liquid border weren't created by the President, the military or the FBI. It's the Santa Claus Congress that just can't say no. Can't seal off the border because Mexico will get mad and the latino vote will be lost. Can't check people's passport's after they've been here awhile because that would too much like racial profiling and could spill over into the African American vote. It has made us sitting ducks.

And you're right that the element of surprise has been lost. One reason the Osama's and Husseins get away from us is because we play by good guy rules. We give them lots of advance warning, just to make sure we've given them every last chance to do the right thing. Then, duh, we have to hunt them down. There are plenty of places for them to hide. The real irony is that some of the very nations to whom we've sent oodles of money to buy their friendship have been harboring terrorists all along. You'll recognize them by the cold shoulder they're giving us now.

I don't have the answers. I'm just deeply troubled by the naivete
of those who think we can wage a war against terrorism without making sacrifices.

You're right, war doesn't solve problems. But sometimes it does stop evil in its tracks--long enough so we can work on the problems. Do we need another 9/11 or a Hitler until we finally "get it"?

[bettyemahan]

BRAVO VDJ!!!!!!!

[cybertrano]

The country is facing a dilemma here. I hate to see American men and women dies for this war because there seems to be no major provocations at all from Iraq for war. Perhaps there is none that we can think of. However, if we wait for Sadam to develop nuclear weapons, it will be much harder to take care of the problem. Look at the Korean situation and you will see what I mean. If and when Sadam will get nuclear weapons he will hold the USA and Israel hostages for his demands. By then can we send our troops in to dislodge him and be nuked? What to do?