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#16 Rich_T

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:08 PM

I'm not sure you are correct, Rich T. My understanding is there are people whose gender (or sex, if you wish) is "eyeballed" when they are born--i.e., do they have a penis or not and based on that they are deemed "boy" or "girl"-- but their internal plumbing and hormones paint a more complex picture. For example, you might look like a boy on the outside but have some female parts inside or high levels of female hormones.

I'm not an expert on this, but that's the impression I have.

That might be part of the explanation for why some people who appear one gender feel so certain they were meant to be the other gender.

 

Well, the Y chromosome would seem to trump the female hormones, and AFAIK, most of the situations do not involve true hermaphrodytes with male and female organs.  I have the impression (and I'm happy to be "educated" otherwise) that most situations involve people who "feel" like a man or woman, in defiance of their physical situation.

 

And I still maintain that even if one feels that s/he is "meant" to be the other gender, that it perpetuates a stereotype for a man to start dressing "like a woman" (or vice versa), in order to identify with being a woman (or man).



#17 bordercolliefan

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:38 PM

I just pulled this from the Wikipedia entry for "Causes of Transsexualism." I haven't read every line of it, but it is certainly suggestive that there may be biological-based factors that lead to it. It is more complicated than whether one has an X or Y chromosome.

Genetics[edit]

The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. Hare et al. found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repetitions of the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.[22]

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.[23]

Brain structure[edit]

In a first-of-its-kind study, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[24]

In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[25]

In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[26]

In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[27] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[28]

In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[29]

While the resolution of MRI tomographs in general can be fine enough, independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types. Therefore such images do not show detailed structures such as BSTc and INAH3, and studies on BSTC were done by bisecting brains postmortem.

However, MRI does much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[30]

An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[31]



#18 Steve Heard

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:22 PM

I completely agree with this. Society already allows a significant range of gender interpretation (e.g., "tomboy" women, effeminate men etc.) so why can't you just be who you are, without resorting to surgical and chemical mutilation of your body?

I find it bizarre that we are supposed to accept the idea of people getting their penises chopped off and taking drugs to grow breasts... yet if I went to the doctor and said, "I've never really felt at home with my gimpy left leg, please chop it off" I'd be sent right to the psychiatrist. How about encouraging people to accept the body they have, instead of mutilating it?

 

 

Aren't people mutilating themselves for beauty, vanity, to make a statement? Tattoos, piercings, implants, tucks, trims and lifts are supposed to make us feel better about ourselves, I suppose. 

 

My good friend has incredibly beautiful daughters. They are a mix of Filipino, French and Mexican heritage. Truly gorgeous girls. One of them is not happy with her incredible looks. Over the past few years she's gotten fake boobs, worked weights so her butt would get bigger, got some tats and piercings, and most recently lip injections and I think an eyebrow lift, making her look almost cartoonish. 

 

It's her business, but she looks so different from what she was just a few years ago.

 

 

The creepy freaky weirdo extremely high maintenance Kardashians did that to him.

 

I'm surprised he hasn't committed suicide, I know I'd be tempted to end things if I was married to that high maintenance narcissistic witch.

 

That was actually hilarious.


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#19 Rich_T

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:42 PM

I just pulled this from the Wikipedia entry for "Causes of Transsexualism." I haven't read every line of it, but it is certainly suggestive that there may be biological-based factors that lead to it. It is more complicated than whether one has an X or Y chromosome.

Genetics[edit]

The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. Hare et al. found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repetitions of the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.[22]

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.[23]

Brain structure[edit]

In a first-of-its-kind study, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[24]

In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[25]

In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[26]

In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[27] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[28]

In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[29]

While the resolution of MRI tomographs in general can be fine enough, independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types. Therefore such images do not show detailed structures such as BSTc and INAH3, and studies on BSTC were done by bisecting brains postmortem.

However, MRI does much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[30]

An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[31]

 

I guess that's interesting, but honestly I'm too brain-dead at the end of the workday to digest it all.  I'll come back to it later.  :-)



#20 Darth Lefty

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 12:10 PM

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#21 supermom

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 12:35 PM

I just pulled this from the Wikipedia entry for "Causes of Transsexualism." I haven't read every line of it, but it is certainly suggestive that there may be biological-based factors that lead to it. It is more complicated than whether one has an X or Y chromosome.

Genetics[edit]

The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. Hare et al. found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repetitions of the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.[22]

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.[23]

Brain structure[edit]

In a first-of-its-kind study, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[24]

In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[25]

In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[26]

In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[27] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[28]

In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[29]

While the resolution of MRI tomographs in general can be fine enough, independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types. Therefore such images do not show detailed structures such as BSTc and INAH3, and studies on BSTC were done by bisecting brains postmortem.

However, MRI does much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[30]

An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[31]

If that were true- which I doubt - Im sure people will say later-"we now know"...

 

This would all come down to the basic scientific theory the Nazi Germans believed in-many years ago

 

Its all about a hormone imbalance a shot will fix it.

 

(ofcourse-the cocktail is and prolly always will be a contentious belief ranging from no not at all- to just how much juice does it take..-and then people will be afraid of it because of the american doctors entire generation of "hormone studies" on women in the past which caused birth defects and cancer")

 

maybe its more humane to let transexuals run around half-naked and confused - than to cocktail-juice them into one gender.



#22 bordercolliefan

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 04:43 PM

" It is more complicated than whether one has an X or Y chromosome. "

 
If someone has male parts and a Y chromosome, It's really not that complicated,That makes them a male.
 


What about hormones? What about someone who has a Y chromosome but excessive amounts of estrogen and other female hormones?

You can put your head in the sand if you want, but more and more studies are showing there is a biological basis for these things--including for being gay.

#23 4thgenFolsomite

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 05:00 PM

Today people just talk about it more.  Cole Porter had it right a hundred years ago.  "anything goes"


Knowing the past helps deciphering the future.

#24 folsombound

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 08:48 PM

I get Gay and I get Lesbian.  Unfortunately I don't get "transgender".  Apparently that is way above my pay grade!



#25 Rich_T

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 09:44 PM

 
If someone has male parts and a Y chromosome, It's really not that complicated,That makes them a male.
 


What about hormones? What about someone who has a Y chromosome but excessive amounts of estrogen and other female hormones?

You can put your head in the sand if you want, but more and more studies are showing there is a biological basis for these things--including for being gay.

 

I'd say those are two different discussions.  If someone with XY can combine with a woman (XX) to make a baby, then that first person is a male, period.  To me, the Y chromosome trumps the estrogen factor.

 

Meanwhile, being gay isn't about the Y chromosome; it has to do with other biological factors, which are then complicated by cultural trappings and affectations.



#26 supermom

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 08:00 AM

If someone was XY then presumably s/he could get with an XX or a YY and create a child.

Then one would have to ask if it would be appropriate and humane to allow XY to try. What if XY can create a child with YY but then the Organs are not all there and the Pregnancy is not viable? Is it right to allow XY to make that attempt merely based on a decision to try? Would it be right to allow XY to surgically implant or stem growth organs; in order to attempt to procreate?

 

Sure its easy to take the easy road with this discussion and say well if the person has the appearance of XX but has the chromosome of XY then they should be allowed to procreate- but at what point does genetic/surgical interference with procreation become illegal?



#27 FolsomEJ

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 09:10 AM

Could I suggest everyone pause for a minute and read a quick wikipedia article on chromosomes before they further comment?  There is a LOT of misunderstanding here.

 

http://en.wikipedia....mination_system



#28 Rich_T

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 09:51 AM

Could I suggest everyone pause for a minute and read a quick wikipedia article on chromosomes before they further comment?  There is a LOT of misunderstanding here.

 

http://en.wikipedia....mination_system

 

Seems pretty straightforward:  "XY system in mammals: Sex is determined by presence of Y." (from your link)

 

Sure, supermom mistakenly introduced the non-existent "YY", but other than that, I don't know why you wrote that there is a lot of misunderstanding here about chromosomes.



#29 bordercolliefan

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 12:12 PM

Meanwhile, being gay isn't about the Y chromosome; it has to do with other biological factors,


Ok, but as soon as you acknowledge this, then the question becomes what do we as a society do about these folks who because of "other biological factors" are gay, transgender, etc.

That's why I say we need to stop throwing everyone into the male-female box. Not everyone fits so neatly.

#30 supermom

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 12:16 PM

 

Seems pretty straightforward:  "XY system in mammals: Sex is determined by presence of Y." (from your link)

 

Sure, supermom mistakenly introduced the non-existent "YY", but other than that, I don't know why you wrote that there is a lot of misunderstanding here about chromosomes.

supposedly gender is defined by an xy in a chromosome. I personally think its an poorly guessed "scientific" theory. Sexuality is as spirual as thought for humans. Period.






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