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Int'l Walk/bike To School Day


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#31 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:26 AM

QUOTE (tony @ Sep 4 2009, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Robert: The problem here is you keep asserting, based on no evidence whatsoever, that somehow kids walking and biking to school results in more people driving. Though I'm not aware of anyone doing a study of one of the Folsom school programs, your assertion has been soundly shot down by common sense and the observations of those who have participated. Would you have us spend taxpayer dollars to hire a consultant to count cars on walk and bike to school day? In what scenario could you possibly come up with 1500 rides to save 1200? Even if every kid who walked/biked to school got picked up by their parent in a car (clearly not the case), that would be 1200 rides, assuming none of them carpooled.

Or your transit scenario: assuming that transit riders drove instead of taking transit on that day because it affected their schedule. In the Sacramento region, the transit mode share is about 5%. In Folsom, it is certainly less than that. So, 5% of 1200 is 60 parents. If every parent who normally takes transit drove that day (again, highly unlikely), that would add 60 round trips. That leaves about 240 trips by car for planning and fire department visits. Robert, you say you want facts, but you're spouting nonsensical numbers to make a point.

It should make people like you, Robert, feel better because there are less cars on the road to get in your way.


The evidence I have is that I know first hand of a friend who normally takes light rail to Butterfield everyday, but on this day drives to & from work. On this day the year before made 3 trips back & forth to work and school, because of the biking.

I also know of a client who has their grandparents drive down from Lincoln to take pictuers of the kids riding to & from school on this day. Add those 100 miles of commuting into the equation. How many other grandparents drive over this day to see their grandkids ridng their bikes to school?

You know very well that some parents follow the kids to school in their cars. There isn't any savings when this happens is there?

You know very well that some parents do have to make extra trips because the kids can't carry their back packs or musical instruments to school on their bikes.

How about those parents who follow the kids to school and then are afraid to leave the kids bikes at school, so they take them home only to return later in the afternoon to drop them off so the kids can ride them home. I've seen this as well.

There are additional car trips generated with the organizing and planning of this event no matter how much you want to imply there isn't. Everyone of these trips would need to get counted into the total of trips that this event generates.

There is a cost involved when the police & fire show up. Fire could be out doing comercial inspections or cutting back brush in open space. Police work is never finished.

The bottom line is simply making the claim that there are 1200 trips saved because of this event is misleading. My sole motive for asking the questions that I did was to point out no matter what is the subject or project there are other factors to consider, we can no longer afford to look at things from one perspective.

The problem is people get so personally wrapped up in their projects, that they are absolutely impervious to anyone asking any questions about the merits of the project, because they take it personally as though its a reflection on them and NOT the project.

Its really too bad that a person can't ask legitimate questions without being castigated and having false lables applied to them while being prejudged.


#32 john

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:34 AM

Robert, for pete's sake, give it up!!! Can't you just support the idea of getting kids to be a little more active? That's all this is - nothing more! Sheesh!



#33 Darthvader

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:34 AM

QUOTE (Robert Giacometti @ Sep 4 2009, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The evidence I have is that I know first hand of a friend who normally takes light rail to Butterfield everyday, but on this day drives to & from work. On this day the year before made 3 trips back & forth to work and school, because of the biking.

I also know of a client who has their grandparents drive down from Lincoln to take pictuers of the kids riding to & from school on this day. Add those 100 miles of commuting into the equation. How many other grandparents drive over this day to see their grandkids ridng their bikes to school?

You know very well that some parents follow the kids to school in their cars. There isn't any savings when this happens is there?

You know very well that some parents do have to make extra trips because the kids can't carry their back packs or musical instruments to school on their bikes.

How about those parents who follow the kids to school and then are afraid to leave the kids bikes at school, so they take them home only to return later in the afternoon to drop them off so the kids can ride them home. I've seen this as well.

There are additional car trips generated with the organizing and planning of this event no matter how much you want to imply there isn't. Everyone of these trips would need to get counted into the total of trips that this event generates.

There is a cost involved when the police & fire show up. Fire could be out doing comercial inspections or cutting back brush in open space. Police work is never finished.

The bottom line is simply making the claim that there are 1200 trips saved because of this event is misleading. My sole motive for asking the questions that I did was to point out no matter what is the subject or project there are other factors to consider, we can no longer afford to look at things from one perspective.

The problem is people get so personally wrapped up in their projects, that they are absolutely impervious to anyone asking any questions about the merits of the project, because they take it personally as though its a reflection on them and NOT the project.

Its really too bad that a person can't ask legitimate questions without being castigated and having false lables applied to them while being prejudged.


I agree with you 100% on your views. However, when it's "for the kids" all common sense and reasoning can go out the window and you don't dare question why else you'll be labeled un-American, a kid hater, etc.

You really have to wonder who does all this really benefit in the end? Adding to the organizer's resume? With over-crowded classrooms and hectic days already what is the greater good?

...Saying what people are thinking but are afraid to say....

#34 supermom

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:44 AM

I am curious how there is cost in the PD and FD in showing up?

They are already patrollling the areas anyway or on duty at the station.

Would be different --wouldn't it?--if they had to bring on additional employees on those days--

Do you have info that supports that?

And Robert--it's kinda a inference to claim your being castigated-here-so far the two people invovled have appeared to be more puzzled by your take of walk/bike day-than aggressive...............

But-I did see some validity in your point on parents driving back and forth for backpacks-however my overall personal experience in this-is that usually parents pre-plan this and the "numbers" of parents driving back and forth are pretty small.

I sorta chalk up that sort of stuff as this_ sometimes costs not validated by logic can be validated by common sense and a life long lesson. In this case, it would be about
personal and healthy choices that can affect your overall health-for the rest of your life.

The cost-therefore-is completely validated by logic-in circular reasoning.

smile.gif

#35 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (john @ Sep 4 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Robert, for pete's sake, give it up!!! Can't you just support the idea of getting kids to be a little more active? That's all this is - nothing more! Sheesh!



Where did I say I don't support the idea of getting kids to be a little more active?

Do you see what a false preconception that is?

#36 cw68

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 01:16 PM

QUOTE (Robert Giacometti @ Sep 4 2009, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The evidence I have is that I know first hand of a friend who normally takes light rail to Butterfield everyday, but on this day drives to & from work. On this day the year before made 3 trips back & forth to work and school, because of the biking.

I also know of a client who has their grandparents drive down from Lincoln to take pictuers of the kids riding to & from school on this day. Add those 100 miles of commuting into the equation. How many other grandparents drive over this day to see their grandkids ridng their bikes to school?

You know very well that some parents follow the kids to school in their cars. There isn't any savings when this happens is there?

You know very well that some parents do have to make extra trips because the kids can't carry their back packs or musical instruments to school on their bikes.

How about those parents who follow the kids to school and then are afraid to leave the kids bikes at school, so they take them home only to return later in the afternoon to drop them off so the kids can ride them home. I've seen this as well.

There are additional car trips generated with the organizing and planning of this event no matter how much you want to imply there isn't. Everyone of these trips would need to get counted into the total of trips that this event generates.

There is a cost involved when the police & fire show up. Fire could be out doing comercial inspections or cutting back brush in open space. Police work is never finished.

The bottom line is simply making the claim that there are 1200 trips saved because of this event is misleading. My sole motive for asking the questions that I did was to point out no matter what is the subject or project there are other factors to consider, we can no longer afford to look at things from one perspective.

The problem is people get so personally wrapped up in their projects, that they are absolutely impervious to anyone asking any questions about the merits of the project, because they take it personally as though its a reflection on them and NOT the project.

Its really too bad that a person can't ask legitimate questions without being castigated and having false lables applied to them while being prejudged.

I'm all behind you asking legitimate questions, but you're not. You're asking biased questions.

To clarify: I never claimed that there were 1200 trips saved. I said 1200 kids got out of the car and walked or biked to school. Your suggestion that 1500 trips for 1200 kids were made is simply ridiculous. A large number of these kids are siblings and on a normal day 100% of these students don't ride in the car to school. Regardless, 1200 kids got the physical benefit of walking to school, a major plus of this event.

As for the grandparents who drove from Lincoln to take pictures of their grandchildren walking to school: either the parent and/or the grandparents need to chill out or if a child walking is really a photographic-worthy event, said kid needs to walk more. To question the validity of this local program using a completely un-normal and probably not reapeated example shows your bias.

As for the parents who don't feel comfortable leaving the bikes there: buy a lock, share a lock or have your kid walk. Or don't have them participate. It's an optional thing after all, remember. Again to judge the validity of the program based upon the few parents who don't plan appropriately shows your bias.

I really don't know anyone who followed their kids to school. Perhaps people don't tell me because of my involvement. Regardless, doing so is crazy. If you don't want them to walk, don't have them walk. Even with this factored in, fewer miles are driven because of this day.

Yes, some trips are made for this event and I never denied their existence. I did, however, call out to you that in my instance, these trips were minimial and that is on purpose.

Nothing is perfect, nothing is free. The net net is that Int'l Walk and Bike to School Day is a good thing, even with the costs and efforts associated. If you have a problem with the City sending personnel, take that up with them. I hope you also complain about the helicopter during Red Ribbon week. That is much more expensive and requires the use of a lot more public servants.

For those of you insinuated that this day is all about me, all about my resume and that I take personal offense at your critisism, wake up. I don't do this for me, I do this for my kids and my community. Complain all you want. If you have questions, complaints, pass them along, but don't expect me not to refute them nor should you expect me to not listen to them. (Note to self: don't have the city vehicles involved. When the kids ask about them, I'll tell them it upset Robert Giacometti and other tax payers, so I wasn't going to waste their money.)

This is why people are hesitant to make efforts to help their community and volunteer their time. I'm out. For those of you who support, participate or volunteer in conjunction with this day, thank you.

#37 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 04:10 PM

QUOTE (cw68 @ Sep 4 2009, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm all behind you asking legitimate questions, but you're not. You're asking biased questions.

(Note to self: don't have the city vehicles involved. When the kids ask about them, I'll tell them it upset Robert Giacometti and other tax payers, so I wasn't going to waste their money.)

This is why people are hesitant to make efforts to help their community and volunteer their time. I'm out. For those of you who support, participate or volunteer in conjunction with this day, thank you.


Cw, if you feel I'm being over bearing or picking on you by asking questions, then I'm sorry.

Thanks for all your efforts in putting this program on for the community. I truly do see the value in getting kids out walking and /or riding to school instead of being driven.

#38 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 04:26 PM

QUOTE (supermom @ Sep 4 2009, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am curious how there is cost in the PD and FD in showing up?

They are already patrollling the areas anyway or on duty at the station.

Would be different --wouldn't it?--if they had to bring on additional employees on those days--

Do you have info that supports that?


smile.gif


Its a hidden cost.

Fire prevention is probably a key componet to a firefighters duties, clearing fire hazards from open space, inspecting commercial buildings etc etc. If every commercial building in town was inspected and every hazard area was cleared, then they could offer free residential inspections. We have had a high number of fires in Briggs Ranch, so maybe an inspection or two could have prevented these from happening?

I'd personally rather have our Firefighetrs doing these types of things then participtaiting in Walk or Ride to School Program. Although, I do see the value of them being there as well.



#39 tony

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 06:22 PM

QUOTE (Robert Giacometti @ Sep 4 2009, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The evidence I have is that I know first hand of a friend who normally takes light rail to Butterfield everyday, but on this day drives to & from work. On this day the year before made 3 trips back & forth to work and school, because of the biking.

I also know of a client who has their grandparents drive down from Lincoln to take pictuers of the kids riding to & from school on this day. Add those 100 miles of commuting into the equation. How many other grandparents drive over this day to see their grandkids ridng their bikes to school?

You know very well that some parents follow the kids to school in their cars. There isn't any savings when this happens is there?

You know very well that some parents do have to make extra trips because the kids can't carry their back packs or musical instruments to school on their bikes.

How about those parents who follow the kids to school and then are afraid to leave the kids bikes at school, so they take them home only to return later in the afternoon to drop them off so the kids can ride them home. I've seen this as well.

There are additional car trips generated with the organizing and planning of this event no matter how much you want to imply there isn't. Everyone of these trips would need to get counted into the total of trips that this event generates.

There is a cost involved when the police & fire show up. Fire could be out doing comercial inspections or cutting back brush in open space. Police work is never finished.

The bottom line is simply making the claim that there are 1200 trips saved because of this event is misleading. My sole motive for asking the questions that I did was to point out no matter what is the subject or project there are other factors to consider, we can no longer afford to look at things from one perspective.

The problem is people get so personally wrapped up in their projects, that they are absolutely impervious to anyone asking any questions about the merits of the project, because they take it personally as though its a reflection on them and NOT the project.

Its really too bad that a person can't ask legitimate questions without being castigated and having false lables applied to them while being prejudged.

Robert: So, you have two anecdotal examples. No, I don't know of any parents who followed behind to carry a backpack. I suppose the musical instrument scenario may happen, but there aren't that many basses and trombones out there. My problem with your whole argument has been that you've taken the exceptions and extrapolated them to the whole population.

As for the grandparents, I like to think of it as getting them to see their grand kids. That's a good thing, right? Should we avoid having school plays and sporting events to make sure the grand parents don't travel too much as well? More importantly, if the grandparents think that their kid walking to school is such a big deal, then we've got a lot of work to do still. In fact, the concept that we have to have a special day in the first place for parents to even consider letting their kids walk or bike to school says quite a lot about our society, and more specifically our land use and transportation decisions these days.

With that said, I'm happy you at least agree that getting kids to walk and bike to school has some value. And believe me, for this particular event, the costs are insignificant compared to -- if their are more Supermoms out there -- the many benefits.




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