45 replies to this topic

[Robert Gary]

I'll just stick with being a mom.

A very worthly profession and a great investment on your part. Your being at home with your kids will make them better adults and I'm sure also statistically will make them more likely to finish college. I certainly have nothing bad to say about stay at home parents.

I just don't see how you can draw the line about which degrees are tax-worthy. There is so much more to education than that piece of paper.

Well you could have two approaches. One, you could just statistically look at the increased income of graduates of various degrees vs. those without degrees and fund those degrees accordingly.
Or, you could consider all the state subsidy of higher education to be a loan. Then take any amount of income that the person later pays taxes on in excess of someone without a degree (say $40,000/yr) and forgive a portion of the subsidy based on that income tax paid.
We can figure this out.


-Robert

[Robert Gary]

That decision was just recently struck down by the same court that issued it

http://www.sfgate.co...?...J.DTL&tsp=1

Great news!!

-Robert

[Parizienne]

No one is suggesting that the state pay for an art degree. It's about knowing how to think. It's about creative thinking in the workplace. Lots of people get art degrees, but the people sponging off the state aren't starving artists. There may be some out there, but my guess is that a starving artist will use his creative noggin to find another way to make a living because he's got the ability to think beyond the ordinary uneducated person.


(sigh).

Ugg, that is what got us down this road of using public funds to pay for degrees in things like art, etc. There is little cost/benefit return to tax payers for those majors. I understand using public funds in public Universities to pay for engineering, science, etc majors because of the increased income tax those graduates will pay. My first degree was in Computer Science and I probably paid the state back 20 times on that investment in income tax alone.
-Robert

[Parizienne]

Then tell me why the Asian countries are sending their business leaders HERE to find out how to INNOVATE?

I went to a national conference a couple of years ago where the top scholars in creative thinking and education were speakers. In attendance was a huge entourage of leaders from China and Korea who wanted to understand how to TEACH creativity since they couldn't seem to do it effectively back home. Their methods do not emphasize innovative thinking. Their methods emphasize precision and accuracy. There is certainly a place for that, but without creativity, you might as well just hire a computer or a robot to do your calculations for you.

They have got the nuts and bolts, yes. But they are far behind us in creative thinking. That grows businesses, and they know it. It expands their markets and they know it. It's what we've got and they don't, and they admitted as much.

I am not clueless, thanksverymuch!


Pari.

Thank you for providing a position to all the businesses that are looking overseas for Math, Engineering, and Software people. "Sorry Art Major Jarred, we need a programmer not a guy with a paintbrush who can analyze the job."

Meanwhile...China, India, South Korea, Russia, etc continue to kick our arse providing smart productive people but all the artsy kids here who can "think outside the box" will seem really cool when they ask you if you want to Supersize your order.

No offense but if anybody follows your thinking they are clueless.

[np1518]

When I was 13 I worked for my brother landscaping. I remember digging a ditch next to my brother-in-law. He was a graduate from college with a degree in art.

That job taught me that I needed to stay in school and get a degree, but not in art!

Aren't we being a little harsh with the art majors here? How many products do you think our engineers would be selling without branding and packaging that are designed by none other than art majors? Who do you think designs every single piece of printed packaging material, magazine, book, website, and graphic for video games and animated movies (to name just a few)? I'm sure the guy who came up with the Apple logo isn't digging ditches right now....

[Robert Gary]

If you have everyone getting certain degrees then the pay for someone with those degrees will go down because everyone will have them so they all will be competing for the same jobs.

No, that is called the "zero sum" fallacy in business. Because I gain you must lose. Its not true. I've worked for several companies that would love to hire in the US but get discouraged by the low numbers of engineers we turn out here. By comparision they can go to India and they are kicking out engineers at a high rate. Today the salery difference between the US and India is smaller than its ever been but I still have companies going to India simply because they get 20 times the applications for every job opening vs. here.

-Robert

[Robert Gary]

Aren't we being a little harsh with the art majors here? How many products do you think our engineers would be selling without branding and packaging that are designed by none other than art majors? Who do you think designs every single piece of printed packaging material, magazine, book, website, and graphic for video games and animated movies (to name just a few)? I'm sure the guy who came up with the Apple logo isn't digging ditches right now....

They may be art majors. In my experience things like logos, packaging, etc are usually done by guys/gals with marketing degrees though. I've often thought of outbound marketing as a practical business application of art

-Robert

[Robert Gary]

Then tell me why the Asian countries are sending their business leaders HERE to find out how to INNOVATE?

That's true but it has nothing to do with art majors. I'm not sure how you define innovation but most of the innovation that the Japanese want to model has been from US based technical people (although less than 50% are US citizens). You won't find Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, etc in an art class. We didn't have many art majors in silicon valley. In anycase, this discussion is missing the point. Its all about statistics and odds. If you want to go into a major that has low odds of increasing your income, go for it, but don't ask the middle class taxpayer to pay for it. That was my point.

-robert

[np1518]

They may be art majors. In my experience things like logos, packaging, etc are usually done by guys/gals with marketing degrees though. I've often thought of outbound marketing as a practical business application of art

-Robert

Actually logos and packaging are done by graphic designers and packaging designers, both art majors. "marketing guys/gals" usually use programs like paint and are not trained in logo or packaging design.

[Robert Gary]

Actually logos and packaging are done by graphic designers and packaging designers, both art majors. "marketing guys/gals" usually use programs like paint and are not trained in logo or packaging design.

I've never seen a logo developed by a guy with an art degree but its possible. Its just not my experience. On the other hand I've seen hundreds designed by guys with marketing degrees. Again, we're talking odds. BTW: No one would use Paint to develop logos. The right hand of marketing is Power Point and most logos, etc start off in something like Power Point or Word. Very non-tech but that is how those guys work.

-Robert

[np1518]

I've never seen a logo developed by a guy with an art degree but its possible. Its just not my experience. On the other hand I've seen hundreds designed by guys with marketing degrees. Again, we're talking odds. BTW: No one would use Paint to develop logos. The right hand of marketing is Power Point and most logos, etc start off in something like Power Point or Word. Very non-tech but that is how those guys work.

-Robert

I'm sorry but your badly mistaken. Logos are NOT designed in PowerPoint or Word, they are designed using Adobe software, like Illustrator. Marketers work WITH art majors to create marketing materials but you will find that most every major corporation with a recognizeable brand has an in-house design team or uses an advertising agency which employs artists. BTW: PowerPoint is for presentations, not for designing logos (you can't even create a vector-based image in PowerPoint or Word.....

[Robert Gary]

I'm sorry but your badly mistaken. Logos are NOT designed in PowerPoint or Word, they are designed using Adobe software, like Illustrator. Marketers work WITH art majors to create marketing materials but you will find that most every major corporation with a recognizeable brand has an in-house design team or uses an advertising agency which employs artists. BTW: PowerPoint is for presentations, not for designing logos (you can't even create a vector-based image in PowerPoint or Word.....

True, but nearly all the logos I've seen done were done by marketing guys in Power Point. I'm not saying its the best tool, but it really is the most common in the trenches.
I think if you look you'll see that most of your "in-house design teams" have marketing degrees. That has certainly been my experience. In anycase, I don't think it really affects this discussion.

-Robert

[tessieca]

Sad to see that the really interesting and helpful article posted by Revolutionist has become a dicussion about art majors in college. I was really heartened by the earlier discussion and people sharing the realization that parental participation in education is ESSENTIAL and should be welcomed and encouraged by the public schools. Parents do this more effectively in elementary school, then taper off in middle school and leave it to the kids and teachers in high school. Kids in high school probably need the family involvement even more, and I'd encourage each of you to continue when you get there.

Just an aside, and I didn't try to find the study that shows that parental expectations of kids (particularly mothers) influence kids not to have sex early also.

Parents are the most important influence for kids! Go Moms and Dads!

[bordercolliefan]

Just an aside, and I didn't try to find the study that shows that parental expectations of kids (particularly mothers) influence kids not to have sex early also.

Parents are the most important influence for kids! Go Moms and Dads!

All of us want to hope that's true... and then we see an example like Sarah Palin's daughter.

I think you do what you can, and then you just cross your fingers that your child's rebellious impulses (which most kids have at some point) tend toward the harmless (weird hairstyle; too much eye make-up) instead of toward the life-changing (teen pregnancy).