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A Community Park For Residents Or For A Private Business


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#16 ducky

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:38 PM

I've seen your letter in the Orangevale View and the comments in the Final 9 blog. I'm not confused and don't see why all the ranting. Seems more of a personal beef and not really anything to do with the park or disc golf course itself.

#17 DalOwnerX3

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:19 PM

Ah, I get it. The concern is that the park is too popular. I don't see this as a problem but more of an opportunity - Orangevale should do something with all the extra visitors they are getting with the frisbee golf course - have some signs posted about upcoming community events.

I suppose the same argument can hold true for those coming to Folsom to use the softball diamonds at Lembi park or soccer fields and volleyball courts at Kemp park. Both which are funded by the City of Folsom.

Personally, I'm okay with it. It's a public park after all.

#18 caligirlz

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:21 PM

Lets see if this information will help you or confuse you?


Thank you Terry for sharing your letter. I agree with the others, it sounds like a personal issue.

If your attitude in the meetings & in your shop are anything like what you have exhibited here, I can certainly understand why your concerns have gone unheeded & ignored.

#19 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:55 PM

Thank you Terry for sharing your letter. I agree with the others, it sounds like a personal issue.

If your attitude in the meetings & in your shop are anything like what you have exhibited here, I can certainly understand why your concerns have gone unheeded & ignored.

This reply is not directed towards you. I can not educate stupid people. If people think a community park is for a private commercial business,then i would not want you as a board of director of a recreation and park district. When an elected board of directors puts the interest of private individuals before my interests, then those board members are unethical. When elected board of directors put money ahead of my interests then they are unethical.If you think i'm wrong, than i think i would not vote for you as a board of director. My problems started when this private business was allowed in Orangevale Community Park. I could play disc golf in this community park with another disc golf friend in 45 minutes. No over crowding, no parking problem, absolutely no problem until final 9 Sports came into this community park. I was not for this private business in 2001, but my opinion would not have mattered, as it turned out!!!!! If you or any of you do not live in Orangevale then i really do not think you can help me in 2012, as only residents of Orangevale can vote for a board of director for Orangevale Recreation and Park District. I've spent 2 years and over 3 thousand hours learning about districts, government codes, state laws, etc, etc. I think i know far more about a recreation and park district than the average person. I know about public service ethics, as i have many ethics folders from the institute of local government. Just tonight at the meeting a smart arse lady said i could not audio record the open public meeting. She said this during her public testomony. So, since i brought my Raplh M. Brown Act manual with me, i waited until after the meeting was over. I approached her with the maunal and tried to show her what the state law said. She would have nothin of it, so i told her i'm done with you and walked away. I can't educate stupid people. Does this help you any?

#20 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:21 PM

My battery was going dead!
Again, i'm not talking directly towards you, so please take no offense, i'm speaking generally about and generally to people.

Where was i? I can't educate people if they are opinioned. If you opionion is so strong that you are going to be right no matter what someone else says, than you are stupid. When i read laws, rules, county ordinances and they say what ever they say, than that means what they words means. Not what you want them to mean. That's why we have dictionary's. If you don't know what a word means go look it up. There's thousands of more words i could say about my subject. I can't tell you every thing i know, it would take me hundreds of hours to explain to you, and then you would say you don't beleive me. So what's the point? You either understand what i'm saying or you don't. It's all about local politics, our level of politics, district politics, special independent politics, special independent recreation and park district politics, a public agency politics. There's basicly 5 levels of politics. 1. District 2.County 3.City 4.State and 5.Federal. The Sacramento Bee and many our newspaper's do not talk about districts, special independent districts. There's about 3 thousand district's in California. They all could be potentially like Reo Linda/Elverta Water District, corrupt and unethical. They are governed by people just like the peolpe governing Orangevale Recreation and Park District.Self serving unethical people, the difference between them and me, i didn't, i haven't yet taken an Oath of Office. When you know about taking an Oath of public office, thgen please tell me about your experience. If you have ordinary petty self serving minded people governing a district, then you will get a district like Orangevale, or worse, like Reo Linda/Elverta water district, corrupt!!!!!!
I hope this helps some? Terry

#21 nomad

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:37 PM

FWIW, Frisbee golf, (or is it FROLF?) is just an odd hippie sport if you can call it that. Tried it once and it was awful. 100 degrees out, tossing a frisbee to a goal you can't even see thru a dried up forest. Fun.

Good luck with your cause, whatever it may be, because it's impossible to figure out exactly what you are after.

#22 john

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:08 PM

Welcome Terry - thank you for discussing.

I think Orangevale is not known for many things, but it's finding a niche in disc golf. I think this is a good thing for the community, and any way they can capitalize it is good for Orangevale. If businesses are helping fund it, that's a good thing. If it's too crowded, push for more courses. People will come from other areas if it's known for it and even spend some money while in town. Win/Win.


#23 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:34 AM

Personally, I don't see a problem here assuming the business isn't charging people to use the frisbee golf course.

It looks like the business is a value-add: selling frisbees and other related items to help people enjoy the park more.

I'd rather have a private business who will try to run the business effectively than having tax-payers subsidizing it. Bonus if the business pays some sort of rent back to the community for the space.

One of the written requests from Final 9 Sports to the Board of Directors in 2009 was for pay to play!
Now please keep in mind, per the Sacramento County Zoning, this community park is zoned "O" open space recreation. "This zone permits public facilities and wildlife preserves. Agricultural uses, single family residential uses, some agriculturally related commercial uses and some institutional uses asre permitted subject to the issuance of a conditional use permit. The minimum lot area is 3 acres with minimum lot width of 200 feet."
This community park, parcel number 213-0015-009 is zoned "O" not "CO". "CO" means commercial recreation.Per Sacramento county ordinances this business is suppose to be a temporary portable concession stand. What this business actually is, is a transportable modular building hooked to sewer, water, gas, electricty and telephone. One of the business owners Jim Oates signed his name to the buidling permit as the "Owner" of this parcel. The business was approved by a Sacramento County planning aide, not by a zoning code or information committee! She approved this business as a "Institutional Ancillary Use" When i was told this i went looking on the Sacramento web site for this information. Their was nothing, no charts, no memtion of this Institutional Use! The County only put this information because i complained and i challenged their county counsel. These county people were and are not honest and forth right, just exactly like this "District".
The District in 2002 published a legal notice, "Notice of Intention to Adopt Negative Declaration by Orangevale Recreation and Park District." That means this temporary portable concession stand, this disc golf pro shop will have "No Impact" on a number of issues. One being parking, vehicle trips and over use of the community park. Remember, is this commercial business was in fact a temporary portable concession stand it would of had no impact on this community park or on these issues. That is not the case KNOW! This business, this private commercial business is why i do not play disc golf at this community park. My problems started when this business, they at one time, where located at Capri Market, the parking that is now for Wal-Mart. This District, this Legislative Body has given Jim Oates, who does not, or did not live in Orangevale and was not able to vote for a board of director, complete and total control of and over this community park. He pretty much tells them what he wants, and what he wants done at and to this community park. One of many reasons i'm not happy, and why i do not play disc golf their, is, i went to a board of directors meeting, as a resident i can do that, i asked them for a taller safety fence around the practice putting area, as i was hit on the thumb by a disc golfer that just had to through a driver over the 4 feet fence into the pratice putting area where i was standing.I got two bids for the fence and told them i would install the fence myself if they bought the fencing. What happened next did not make me happy, not at all!!!. The park superindentant, Chuck West, who turns out is very good buddies with Jim Oates, Chuck West gave Jim Oates that final word, and Jim Oates did not want a taller fence! I will repeat, Jim Oates is not a resident, was not a resident, he did not vote in Orangevale.Anyway, i as a resident did not get treated like a resident, but a second class person, another words, the legislative body did not serve my needs, my recreational needs, they served the wants of a non-resident!
Which brings me back to the written request and the plan from these private business owners dated January 23 2009 and addressed to the Board of Directors and somehow ended up on the district's Capital Project list for 2009. The park Improvements requested are; 1. Additional parking, estimated cost $30,000.00 They will turn the tennis courts into a parking lot. 2. A Gazebo, estimated cost $40,000.00 It will be placed within feet of Final 9 Sports store and the store will block out street view of this Gazebo. Final 9 Sports will also add an adittional store between the tennis courts and the existing store. 3. A disc golf warm-up structure, estimated cost $8,000.00 4. Benches 5. Storage Container and "Explore the possibility of pay to play that would increase revenue to both parties"
this private commercial business is making a substantial income, between $60,000 and $70,000 dollars a year from being located at this community park! Which the tax payer of Orangevale paid for, for their recreational use!
Anymore Questions?

#24 nomad

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:52 AM

Just one question: Ever heard of a paragraph?

#25 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:07 PM

I've seen your letter in the Orangevale View and the comments in the Final 9 blog. I'm not confused and don't see why all the ranting. Seems more of a personal beef and not really anything to do with the park or disc golf course itself.

Thanks for your opinion, it's just that

#26 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:22 PM

Ah, I get it. The concern is that the park is too popular. I don't see this as a problem but more of an opportunity - Orangevale should do something with all the extra visitors they are getting with the frisbee golf course - have some signs posted about upcoming community events.

I suppose the same argument can hold true for those coming to Folsom to use the softball diamonds at Lembi park or soccer fields and volleyball courts at Kemp park. Both which are funded by the City of Folsom.

Personally, I'm okay with it. It's a public park after all.

Folsom is a City, Orangevale is an unincorparted community of sacramento county. Orangevale Recreation and Park District was created to provide Orangevale residents with parks and recreational facilities, that's why they are taxed and why they pay two benefit asessments. Absolutely others can use Orangevale parks!!! just like i use other park to play disc golf. Put i do not have and would not have a commercial retail sales business in a community park. Orangevale has the only commercial business in a community park where i have played disc golf. There must be a reason? Is money the answer? Is money the excuse? Orangevale Recreation and Park District ignored their residents opposition to this commercial business in 2001/2002 and went instead with their lawyers opinion. You clearly know nothing about public service ethics! You clearly do not know why residents of Orangevale have an elected body called a board of directors. they were not elected to serve their lawyer, the were elected to serve their residents best interests, all residents best interests. They were not elected to serve non-residents. They were not elected to serve private business interests before they serve their residents with parks and recreational facilities. If you ahve any more questions, just ask!

#27 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:30 PM

Ah, I get it. The concern is that the park is too popular. I don't see this as a problem but more of an opportunity - Orangevale should do something with all the extra visitors they are getting with the frisbee golf course - have some signs posted about upcoming community events.

I suppose the same argument can hold true for those coming to Folsom to use the softball diamonds at Lembi park or soccer fields and volleyball courts at Kemp park. Both which are funded by the City of Folsom.

Personally, I'm okay with it. It's a public park after all.



#28 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:38 PM

I've seen your letter in the Orangevale View and the comments in the Final 9 blog. I'm not confused and don't see why all the ranting. Seems more of a personal beef and not really anything to do with the park or disc golf course itself.

Well "Ducky" thank you for your opinion. But you are in fact confused. You sound like the modertor for Final 9 Sports forum!!!At least the one they did have!!I would be wasting my time with you if i tried explaining any more to you, so go hold hands with Jim Oates and celebrate!

#29 ducky

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:08 PM

Well "Ducky" thank you for your opinion. But you are in fact confused. You sound like the modertor for Final 9 Sports forum!!!At least the one they did have!!I would be wasting my time with you if i tried explaining any more to you, so go hold hands with Jim Oates and celebrate!



I'd be happy to hear you explain more. Calling people stupid for not agreeing with you, when you hadn't been exactly clear on what you were unhappy with, doesn't really make for a persuasive or compelling argument.

So are they actually going to charge to play disc golf? Is the upkeep of the course becoming a financial drain on the park district? I know Folsom has a skateboard park that you have to "pay to play" at. If it weren't that way, the park might not be able to stay or even have been built in the first place.

Has anyone else requested a fence? Just because your request was turned down doesn't mean it was personal. It sounds like your accident was a fluke unless it's happening all the time to other people, too; in which case, I would assume you wouldn't be alone in writing letters and attending meetings.

I'll take being called someone that sounds like a moderator as a compliment. I happen to like our moderators here.

Last thing, I can assure you if I walked up to Jim Oates and held his hand he would be quite shocked since we haven't ever met.

#30 Disc Golf Revolution

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:08 PM

I'd be happy to hear you explain more. Calling people stupid for not agreeing with you, when you hadn't been exactly clear on what you were unhappy with, doesn't really make for a persuasive or compelling argument.

So are they actually going to charge to play disc golf? Is the upkeep of the course becoming a financial drain on the park district? I know Folsom has a skateboard park that you have to "pay to play" at. If it weren't that way, the park might not be able to stay or even have been built in the first place.

Has anyone else requested a fence? Just because your request was turned down doesn't mean it was personal. It sounds like your accident was a fluke unless it's happening all the time to other people, too; in which case, I would assume you wouldn't be alone in writing letters and attending meetings.

I'll take being called someone that sounds like a moderator as a compliment. I happen to like our moderators here.

Last thing, I can assure you if I walked up to Jim Oates and held his hand he would be quite shocked since we haven't ever met.

Very good comments, thank you




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