627 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

TM70, how about providing some facts to help us understand the issues...

What is the starting salary for a teacher in FCUSD? What is the median salary for FCUSD teachers? What is the highest salary?

What are the benefits, such as health insurance and (this is the big one) retirement?

It is very hard to compare teachers to private sector employees, because (1) teachers get more time off than private sector employees (and could even take summer jobs, if they wished); (2) private sector employees pretty much save for their own retirement -- there are no pensions anymore; (3) private sector employees have no civil service job security.

I tend to think that teacher salaries should be higher to ensure that we get the best and the brightest, but it is hard to make a comparison. Can you provide some more info??

[DrKoz23]

The whole "merit pay" system has been tried. It went out when some teachers in the state made $25,000 each for raising test scores. In Folsom alone, teachers were receiving checks for anywhere from $500 to $10,000 based on increased test scores. What happened to those days? I would love for a merit pay system to be used. Each teacher would receive a competitve base salary with incentives for increasing test scores. Here is the inherent problem with such a system...the whole thing hinges on CHILDREN!!! Do you really want to get into a profession that has the entire merit based system based on the performance of 7 and 8 year olds. I know, I'll recruit the best kids for my class, or somehow I'll find a way to have them test at the highest rate possible.

So you are saying that the money is more important than the pride in seeing your students succeed? And why shouldn't children's success be the measuring stick against pay increases. The children are your customers... aren't they? If you are doing your job correctly... then your "customers" should show the progress needed.

Tenure is also a joke. It is almost impossible to get rid of a teacher after they have made tenure. That is why the more energetic younger teachers are usually let go after a year or two... especially during cutbacks. Those teachers retained aren't kept because of their skills... but because of their time in service. It was quite disheartening to see this when I was growing up and going to high school. We all knew which teachers were there to just collect a paycheck... and those that actually cared about the welfare of their students. Unfortunately... the prior was the one who kept their job because of tenure.

I had some great teachers growing up... and some really bad one's. There was nothing that could be done to the bad one's... and that sometimes leaves a bitter taste in people's mouths.

Yes... I feel very bad for the teachers that care about their profession... and really want to make a difference in a young person's life. They definitely do deserve more money. However... I feel just the opposite about those sitting around waiting for the next payday... and only doing the bare minimum to attempt to teach their kids... without much success.

[TM70]

4.65%+$100=5.25%???

Please explain that...

[TM70]

4.65%+$100=5.25%???

Please explain that...

[tgianco]

You'd like me to say that, but again, you haven't a clue either...Have you ever tried working with young children and having their success or lack thereof, due to many factors often above and beyond your control, tied to your paycheck. Also, children come in many shapes and sizes. It's not one size fits all. Yes, most students will make progress, if you're any good, but what about thost 5 or 6 that just don't work at it. No effort, no parental(for whatever reason) support, don't get me started on the organic problems they may have...

I'll grant you that tenure is not perfect, but I addressed in a previous post the myth of tenure.

Again, I have to laugh, there is a LOT of negativity on this board when talking about teachers. Hardly any rah, rah, about teachers should get more for what they do. A few post, but most of it is bitter. Attacking teachers, and focusing on the poor teachers instead of on the good. You people have no idea what you have at some of these area schools. Granted, some of the teachers can be poor, but from what I have seen, they are few and far between. Folsom teachers are pretty awesome over all. Who are these paycheck watchers anyway. Why stay in teaching to do that. You'll go mental waiting for retirement with that attitude.

I can see your point, and I can understand the other side as well.

At one point, I started the teacher credential program, but I stopped because the starting salaries for teachers are so low and that the credential program was expensive while the bills keep coming. So, I empathize with you very much and think that starting salaries need to be much higher and there needs to be some way for those going through credentialing to not get behind the 8-ball so much. While other "grad" students will be going on the much higher pay, teachers will not, at least not initially.

I would also agree that basing your success on the students' success can indeed stink (how is it measured, test scores?). I think teaching to the test does not do much to prepare the student for later on in life and is really much of a gauge of the child's aptitudes and/ or deficiencies.

While my kids are not yet school age, the majority of what I have seen and heard about Folsom teachers, even on this board, has been overwhelmingly positive. While there are beefs with teachers occasionally, most people are very supportive of the teachers in Folsom. If you read these boards much, most of the problems with kids are blamed on the parents (right or wrong), not the teachers.

On the other hand, I understand where a couple of the "bashers" are coming from (I don't feel they are bashing, but I can understand why you might if you were a teacher in Folsom). My aunt was a "tenured" teached in the San Mateo Union High School District for 25 years, and, by the end, she hated her job, she hated her students and she only stayed to increase her retirement benefits. How do I know? She told me so, and also dissuaded me from becoming a teacher due to the "little monsters" and some of the other reasons you stated above. That type of response will breed some negativity on the profession.

I am a sales guy, and we are bashed constantly. On other threads, restaurants are bashed, mechanics are bashed, cleaning people are bashed, and the list goes on. My question to you or anyone in any line of work, what makes your profession above reproach (not that I'm saying you are doing this)? It's only natural to become defensive about how we make our living, but, when you come to this or any other board with a beef, you have to know that some (or many) will not agree with you or will at least play devil's advocate.

I wish was there was a fix for your issues and those of the posters above. Each has brought valid concerns (not attacking, unless someone labeled all or most teachers "slackers"). As our state and national economies sink deeper and deeper into debt, it will be more than interesting to see how it all plays out.

[EDF]

I did a little analysis once years ago when I was active in the school district issues....

I think back then a starting teacher was making 32K a year... about I think 7 or 8 years ago....but remember that is for a 9 month out of 12 for the year... the private sector does not get that...

In addition the district pays for the "continuing ed" they call... "in service" days...

My kids seemed like they were always off... in service days... minimum days... holidays the private sector doesn't get....

Now I would feel better about the teaching profession if they would stay out of the "socialization" and stick to teaching...

and I disagree with an earlier post... TENURE is still alive and well... NO OTHER PROFESSION HAS THIS PERK... and NO OTHER PROFESSION GETS A RAISE JUST FOR HAVING A HIGHER DEGREE... no we only get paid more for PERFORMANCE...and PRODUCTION....

You know... as an aside... I bet this district is still into this "team teaching" or "group work" where the kids are grouped in teams of 4... one or two of the little beasties do all the work on a project and the others are dragged along...

And when the original poster complains about the poverty and plight of the kids in Rancho as being the cause of so much angst because its harder to teach English learners... maybe her group the California Teachers Association should come out against educating Illegal Aliens that have no business being here in the first place.. maybe then if we didn't have that, we could have smaller class sizes with American citizen kids....

Finally... I am fed up with this never ending comparison of one jurisdiction with another.. I don't care if it's Cops... Firemen... Social Workers.... City Managers... City Attorneys....and Teachers... they all snivel and whine when one jurisdiction gets more... so the old argument comes out.... "If we don't maintain parity and increase our salaries and benefits to match those of neighboring districts, the best and brightest will leave"....

That happend just recently in the latest round of raises handed out amongst some of our public servants here in town... any body remember that same stinking argument... I sure do....

I think that is BS... let em leave.. and then hire some new blood and give that person a shot and the same gig....

[TM70]

4.65%+$100=5.25%???

Please explain that...

[EDF]

Hey... I don't think I used any gender references in my post... other than firemen...

my point is that these public servant types all use the same arguement that nearby or neighboring jurisdictions are getting more therefore we have to get more and it just a NEVER ENDING CYCLE...

It's starting again... as soon as you get a raise... some other district is going to want some parity +... because maybe they work in a district that doesn't have the same level of Parental Involvement as Folsom does...and I think that is probably the most compelling reason the Folsom side of the district does so well... I know we have some good teachers...

However when you and your profession started getting involved in social issues then you ask for it...

I remember the "split issue of the district" and your union decided join with the same administrators you hate now to fight the parents and taxpayers against creating 2 separate districts... oh the waste of money you all said... all lies...

and...I remember the old days when I was growing up and you teachers out there will like this...

If I was a brat in the class... the one thing I would rather have was a paddle at school... because if they called my house and told my mom and dad that I was a stinker that day... I really got it....because back then it was like a team the parents and teachers... not anymore...oh they say they want us parents involved... but it's all about "pay and benefits"... based upon the number of stinking "minutes" you are working... I couldn't believe that when I sat through a school board meeting you measured it all by minutes in school....

and... the day you start letting a 12 or 13 year old out of school to get abortions.. and abortion advice without notifying parents... was one of the days I lost respect for your profession...

In fact the higher up you go in the ladder of teaching the more perks you guys get... My yougest son just graduated from CalPoly with a computer engineering degree... I can't tell youu how many times he didn't get the real professor for the class in front of them...

You guys also are so politically liberal for the most part that you have lost the respect of many parents... you don't teach the basics anymore...

No... it's all about diversity... sensitivity.... global warming... and socialism that is taught to our kids...

The majority of us are sick and tired of that... and the only thing we can do about it is vote the stinking money down... or take the kids out of government run schools... either home school or private....and isn't it eye opening when a home schooled kid can out shine kids that go to some of the better public schools....

[TM70]

4.65%+$100=5.25%???

Please explain that...

[EDF]

Ok Excuse me..... I forgot that one gender reference...

however the rest of it is on point...

because you want money from us the Taxpayers... and I would venture most of us don't want to give any more....

and you pas the buck... well it's the State that measures it in minutes... come on.. they do it at the school board level too...all union jive...

and it's my point.. when you get a raise.. then some other district is going to use your raise to get theirs... and then you will be lower again and will want to get the same... it goes on and on and on...

the social issues are part of it all... when you and your union fought us the parents during measure "O" and divided the community... you lost respect I know from many people... inclulding me... other social issues have come up and you folks are on the wrong side.. but are so elitist in your view because you afer all know better...

You are right, I was bored to death in school... and my oldest was as well... and you know what... the ones that are bored to death are probably the smarter ones... they needed to be challenged and not held back by the social engineering your union promotes...

and this is why.. you don't get much sympathy from many parents...

[TM70]

4.65%+$100=5.25%???

Please explain that...

[SacKen]

Until unions are eradicated, nobody other than the union thugs will ever be happy. The union workers will always want more and the rest will always cry foul. The good teachers will always be underpaid so that the mirror-foggers can keep their job. While there are plenty of good teachers, they will always be considered in the public eye as being in the same group as the undeserving slackers that would also benefit from the raise. This opinion is unfortunately at the expense of the great teachers that deserve to make six-figures for what they do.

I'm sorry that this frustration tends to look like a personal attack on specific teachers. I don't think that is the intention.

If you could only get rid of your union and make your leaders accountable for all the money they waste, your life as a teacher would be much better and our children would get the education they need.

As for the current topic... go to another district and get paid more. That's what the rest of us do. If the company across town will pay me more to do the same job and it's enough to make the move worth it, then I would change jobs. I wouldn't go to the public and complain that they don't pay me enough. If they started losing good employees, they would "market adjust" their pay scales to keep people (they were forced to do that during the startup-craze a few years back). If everyone is willing to stay and work in FCUSD at the current pay, then I assume that FCUSD is paying their market value.

[JMH]

TM70, are you currently working as a teacher? I am asking because several of your posts are during teaching hours.

[asbestoshills]

I know Rancho Cordova schools are included in the district....Also, Theodorah Judah and Blanche Sprentz are actually scored pretty high even though the schools are located in the old area of Folsom..In fact, I used to live in that area and I can tell you now that Blanche Sprentz is a great school and can compare to the other Folsom schools..In fact, the school is small and the children get a great education there....
AS for overtime without pay? That's called making a living in America...How many of you out there work OT for no pay or time compensation? Most of us.....That is unfair to all, not just teachers....Not to demean teachers, but just because the State requires you to have all of these classes and education doesn't mean you should be paid as much as an attorney or a dentist....The skill set needed to teach is not as great as other professions..With that said, I do think teachers are owed a decent living and are adequatley trained...There are so many teachers out there that don't put the hours into prepping like you do and they leave 15 minutes after school gets out....In addition, many tenured teachers really lose their enthusiasm for the job after a while and do not seem to like their profession or the children.....

[asbestoshills]

BTW Folsom recently was rated one of the most affordable places to live..There is a blog somewhere on this site about it...