34 replies to this topic

[NRB]

In response to EDF regarding partisanships, I relinquish the floor to our Founding Father, George Washington who warned us of the dangers of forming political parties.

QUOTE

...they are likely in the course of time…to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people.… - George Washington

Last I checked, he wasn't a Democrat!
I hope you find humor in all of this because it certainly isn't my intention to offend anyone.

[jobu]

April, I bet you voted for Perot, too. HE was the reason Clinton got elected... you may recall that his votes lost the election for Bush Sr. But that's not either here nor there, I just thought I'd chime in. I don't think women voters were the reason he was elected (though that undoubtably was a factor).

[cybertrano]

I voted for Bush and the Republican and probably will continue to do so. I don't consider myself Republican but I have to chose the lesser of two evils. I also vote for Republicans for the longterm well being and core values of this country - morality, Christianality, etc....
Sorry for being so philosophical, but I think without these core values, we as a country will slowly crumble.............. History has proved that.....
:P

[cybertrano]

I sometimes want to avoid postings in certain forums because I believe some people here are sooooo anti-immigrants and became irrational and extreme....

[cybertrano]

Deficit soon to hit where it truly hurts

By John Hill -- Bee Capitol Bureau
Published 2:15 a.m. PST Sunday, December 8, 2002
Kim Rueben was a student at a Brooklyn junior high school in the 1970s when New York City almost went bankrupt and started cutting back programs.
"Suddenly, the music teacher wasn't there," she recalled. "For the first part of the semester, we sat in the library. Then they started giving us more sheet-metal classes."

Rueben now studies state and local finance for the Public Policy Institute of California. And her adopted state is facing a fiscal crisis of its own -- one that Rueben believes also will touch the lives of ordinary folks.

"It means budget cuts may start to affect popular programs," she said.

The magnitude is $21.1 billion in a general fund of more than $80 billion by the end of the next fiscal year in June 2004, according to the most recent estimate. But officials say it's expected to be several billion higher.

It comes on the heels of a similar shortfall that was -- on paper -- supposedly wiped out by the budget signed by Gov. Gray Davis in September. But that budget was balanced in large part with one-time measures and accounting maneuvers that failed to nurse the state back to fiscal health.

Now the Legislature, starting in a special session Monday, must confront a short menu of unpalatable choices: cuts to programs, including popular ones that had largely been spared until now, or tax hikes.

By any measure, the size of the shortfall is staggering. It matches the size of the entire general fund budget -- the main source of state spending -- during the administration of Gov. George Deukmejian in the 1980s. The deficit outstrips the entire budgets of 46 states.

It is more than one-quarter of the current general fund, a percentage that rivals the shortfalls of the early 1990s, when California was mired in an economic decline that approached a depression.

The shortfall approaches the annual revenues of the Walt Disney Co., Microsoft Corp. or Aetna.

If the state were to halt all funding for the University of California, California State University and the Medi-Cal program, it would still have a budget gap of several billion dollars.

It breaks down to more than $700 for every man, woman and child in the state.

But the dimensions of the problem may not have sunk in with many insiders -- lobbyists, bureaucrats, local officials -- much less everyday Californians.

"I think the reality is going to start hitting in the next week or two," said Patrick McCallum, a lobbyist for community colleges who has been through four budget crises as a lobbyist and legislative staffer. "You say, 'Oh, this hurts me personally, or I'm going to have to hurt things I believe in.' "

Education accounts for half the general fund budget. Schools, largely spared by earlier budget cuts, are almost certain to feel the pinch.

"Given the size of the deficit, they're going to have to start talking about programs that had been sacred," Rueben said.

Still, a minority of California households include school-age children, and most Californians have limited direct contact with government.

"Occasionally, they go to the library, but usually it's the DMV," said Jesse Huff, Deukmejian's finance director and more recently an adviser to Republican gubernatorial candidate Bill Simon.

But just about everyone relies on state operations whether they know it or not. Some of the effects of a dwindling state treasury may be hard to detect at first.

"The pothole grows a little, but the pothole was already there," Huff said.

Ten years ago, when the state faced its last budget crisis, the impact was felt far and wide. Taxes went up, including the income tax on high-income residents, the sales tax and the vehicle license fee. The sales tax base was expanded to include food, candy, bottled water and newspapers.

The state shifted property tax revenues from local governments to schools. School budgets were cut, and people who relied on social service programs had to get by on smaller grants.

Those budgets also resorted to accounting maneuvers. But many of those techniques were later ruled illegal by courts and can't be used in the current crisis. Among them were deferred state contributions to retirement funds and transfers from the state's own special funds to the general fund.

As the effects of the budget crisis start to be felt, many Californians who have paid little attention to the brewing fiscal storm may start to take notice and ask how it came to pass.

Republicans say it's simple: Their Democratic colleagues couldn't restrain themselves, a message they have been sounding since the dot-com explosion drove stock-option and capital-gains revenues to astronomical heights.

But many observers point out that it would have been politically difficult to pour all the revenue from the boom into a rainy-day reserve. When the state did maintain a big reserve in the 1970s, some politicians called it "obscene."

It added momentum to the passage of Proposition 13, putting strict limits on property taxes. If the state is sitting on that big pile of cash, the thinking went, why does it soak us for property taxes?

In the current crisis, "The problem is that the economy was doing so well and the cycle lasted as long as it did," Rueben said. "It's hard to say that money isn't real in your budget when you've seen it for three or four years." Liberals press to spend it, she said, while conservatives want it returned to taxpayers.

The question remains whether budget decision-makers, from Davis down, should have seen it coming. A year ago, Davis and many of his fellow Democrats urged short-term accounting maneuvers to weather what was portrayed as a short-term hit to the state treasury.

But just about everybody got it wrong, said Jean Ross, executive director of the California Budget Project, a Sacramento-based policy research group -- the Federal Reserve, institutional investors, financial markets and President Bush, whose tax cut was predicated on a sizable surplus.

"This is not a unique problem to California," she said.

Most officials across the political spectrum agree that the only long-term solution is an overhaul of the state's tax collection and bureaucratic structure.

But McCallum is skeptical that some of the difficult cures will get much of a hearing this year: taxing services as well as goods, revisiting Proposition 13 or broadening the tax base instead of just focusing on a hike for the rich.

As for the cuts, McCallum, like many others, is hunkered down.

"Everyone knows it's coming," he said, "but when it hits you in the face, you're more shocked.'"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the Writer
---------------------------

The Bee's John Hill can be reached at (916) 326-5543 or jhill@sacbee.com

[bettyemahan]

You are all right, ------but it still comes down to one thing------political abuses!

The Constitution was written for the PEOPLE. Now, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

The laws are abused, bent, changed, or just ignored by the politicians. Corruption is non-partisan. The Clinton administration and it's wannabes brought to BLATANT light how low our national leaders had become.

Most of the voters don't want to be bothered with having their eyes opened. CA is about the worst there. Legislators voted themselves a big raise a few months before the election.

This state went from a huge surplus to over double that surplus in debt. It won't hurt the highly paid FOR political incomes, just the middle income taxpayer and those trying to cope with the monumental costs on fixed retirement incomes.

The politician who received more in campaign donations than any politician in the U.S. won't be donating any of that money to help pay the deficit but he will raise your taxes and cut services into the next century!

The politicians all started somewhere in the local level political arena. Look at the situation in Folsom! Eyes don't want to be opened here either!

[OctoberLily]

Although I don't agree with a lot of things April has posted, I have to agree with her regarding the problems this country is facing with ILLEGAL immigrants. California and Florida have the worst problems with this issue.

I believe that our resources (education, medical, housing and employment) are being overburdened by the many ILLEGAL immigrants in the country. Many of whom work "under-the-table" therefore, denying LEGAL immigrants the opportunities to perform these type of work.

Our country is made up of many immigrants that moved here LEGALLY. I think that everyone who comes here have to go through the same legal procedures to live in this country. If they don't, then they need to be returned to their country.

I believe that Gov. Davis is following that route of thinking by not allowing ILLEGAL immigrants the opportunity to obtain a driver's license here in CA. Give me a break, why make it legal for them to drive in CA when they aren't even supposed to be in CA?

I don't know who proposed that idea but they need to be bopped in the head.

[EDF]

Regarding the last post about whose idea it was to give drivers licenses to ILLEGAL Immigrants...

That idea has come from your LIBERAL bretheren who think its a neat idea... after all they need to get to work don't they.. and then insurance...

Davis vetoed it because it was an election year... he may approve of it now...

This is not just a Democrat issue... The Republicans like Dubbya want to open the borders to illegal immigrants... our good friend Doug Ose is also of like mind... just ask him...

We will have to flood their offices with email and phone calls soon to stop it...

[tony]

To EDF and April: Illegal immigrants sure are convenient scape goats for all our economic and social ills. What you have failed to mention is the dirty little secret regarding illegals in California: the state can't survive without them, or at least California's multi-billion dollar corprate agricultural economy can't. Who do you think picks all the strawberries and other high-dollar fruits and vegetables in California? It's all about big business (incidentally, a thriving business that thrives because of subsidized labor -- weak immigration and farm-worker protection laws -- and subsidized water).

And regardless of the special incentives in California, the government won't crack down on immigration (legal or otherwise) because immigrants create growth and growth keeps the economy humming (most of the time). There was an article in yesterday's Bee citing a recent study showing the conomic benefits of immigration. No surprise, really. In case you all forgot, nearly all of us are descendents of immigrants, and when my Irish and Italian ancestors came over hear about 100 years ago, people were saying the same thing they are now about the current batch of immigrants (and worse). But, overall, the US has always welcomed and depended on immigration. We didn't get to be the most powerful country on earth by locking the gates and saying, "enough".

So, sure, blame the illegal immigrants. It's easy. None of us probably no any of them anyway. And nevermind the 100s of Billions of dollars folks like Enron hit us for in the past couple of years. No, those folks were well-educated, hard-working (er, playing -- as in gaming the system) Americans who didn't require any expensive social programs to make a decent living. They just took what they wanted directly. No overblown bureaucratic programs required; just needed a few pesky regulations pushed aside "for the benefit of the rate payers".

[April]

Tony, you obviously do not have any respect for the laws of this country.
And your reasoning about immigrants who came here over 200 years ago, does not hold
water.
With all due respect, why do you think there are laws against coming into this country
illegally? These are different times, they didn’t have any laws against illegal immigration
way back then.
What would you have our country do, just open the borders? Perhaps you don’t mind the
illegal immigrates coming here and breaking our laws, which cost us millions.
Well some of us DO mind. And you’d better wake up and smell the coffee, if you care
about this state and want to continue to live here. Because unless you are rich, you are
going to feel this budget shortfall and it will take it’s toll in your pocket.

AND, for your information, the ones who come here and pick strawberries have Green
Cards, and they are here LEGALLY, in case you didn’t know. Anyone hiring a worker
without a valid Green Card will be fined heavily. But hey, with the advent of computers,
how can a farmer tell a real card from a phony? So I guess what it boils down to is you
don’t care about the immigrate workers who come over here LEGALLY to work, and
can’t, because the jobs are being taken by ILLEGALS!

Sounds to me like you are a little confused about where your loyalties are.
Only those who would take advantage of illegal immigrate workers would have your
attitude..........they have a vested interest in them being here, because it pads their pockets.
Or they can get a cheap Mexican maid and house keeper, right? The rich, or want to be
rich, always have sympathies for the illegals who work here. Why shouldn’t they, when
they can have dirt cheap labor?
What’s your interest???? I guess you would have us believe you are just standing up for
them because you have a big heart?
I’m not convinced.

And about the lack of attention to the abuses by Enron and other big corporations on this
board...where have you been? There has been plenty of discussion about that, and no
doubt will be more. But as far as I’m concerned, breaking the law is breaking the law!
No matter who does it for what reason. They are all criminals.
Or is that just a minor detail to you?

[tony]

April: That's quite a conclusion you've jumped to about my respect for the law. Apparently I wasn't clear enough. I did not suggest that we should ignore the issue of illegal immigration (though it may have sounded like it). What I did say was that illegal immigration is not responsible for the state of the economy in California to an extent anywhere near that of the manufactured electricity shortage of a year ago (or other corporate nefarities that helped create and then burst the stock market bubble). In fact, you said it better: "illegal immigration costs us millions" while Enron and friends cost us BILLIONS. And if immigration (legal or otherwise) is responsible for our economic malais, why now, when statistics shown all forms of imigration are actually down over the past decade. In fact, the biggesst contributor to population growth in California has been babies born to residents that are here already (I know, mom just ran across the border between contractions).

As for the strawberry pickers, April, I'll smell the coffee when you dig your head out of the sand. Ther reaon there are illegal immigrants picking strawberries is because no one else will do that backbreaking work for the money they get paid and in the condiitions in which they work and live. Yeah, I'm sure there are a few people with green cards doing it too, but it's not like people are breaking down the doors to get these jobs. But as I said before, the illegals are tolerated by the government because big buisiness needs the cheap labor, and, as noted in the previosuly referenced study, the "economic drain" associated with immigration is a myth.

April, I am not defending the right of people to enter the country illegally. But I am saying that it is unfair to pin higher taxes and all sorts of other ills on them. The fact is that they provide cheap labor that you and I take advantage of every time we go to the grocery store. And that if we didn't have that source of cheap labor (and federally-subsidized water), California wouldn't have the fifth largest economy in the world.

As for my loyalties, though the charge does not really dignify a response, I'll give one anyway: let's just say that the aforementioned groceries are my closest connection to a direct benefit from illegal immigration (sorry, two kids and no nanny). Rich? Yeah, rich enough to live in Folsom with the rest of you on 1.6 salaries, although I'd better get back to my overtime here, or it might soon be 0.6 salaries!

[April]

Tony, let me get this correct. You are saying that you'd rather save a few cents on strawberries, and pay for the crimes in drug trade and the crimes against the American citizens, than have the illegal immigrants picked up and taken back where they came from?
You are saying that you have enough money so you don't have to worry, as the retired folks will or the middle income folks will, when the cuts take effect and they raise the sales tax and the income taxes.

You just want everybody to know about the crimes Enron commited and not blame everything on the illegal immigrants.

Well, from what I have read and posted on this board, THAT is not being done. It just so happens that the post you responded to is only ONE POST, and there are many that have been posted here, that refer to our corrupt leaders as well as the corrupt corporations....had you bothered to read them.

And as far as the illegal immigrants being partly responsible for making California the fifth largest economy....THAT fifth largest economy hasn't got the money to run itself!
Not that I agree at all with that statement, as I know the many huge tech companies here, the movie industry, the small business owners and many other factors, have in truth, made this state what it is today.
If your statement were true, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now with our budget.

I'm sorry, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[cybertrano]

QUOTE (tony @ Dec 8 2002, 09:20 PM)

To EDF and April: Illegal immigrants sure are convenient scape goats for all our economic and social ills. What you have failed to mention is the dirty little secret regarding illegals in California: the state can't survive without them, or at least California's multi-billion dollar corprate agricultural economy can't. Who do you think picks all the strawberries and other high-dollar fruits and vegetables in California? It's all about big business (incidentally, a thriving business that thrives because of subsidized labor -- weak immigration and farm-worker protection laws -- and subsidized water). And regardless of the special incentives in California, the government won't crack down on immigration (legal or otherwise) because immigrants create growth and growth keeps the economy humming (most of the time). There was an article in yesterday's Bee citing a recent study showing the conomic benefits of immigration. No surprise, really. In case you all forgot, nearly all of us are descendents of immigrants, and when my Irish and Italian ancestors came over hear about 100 years ago, people were saying the same thing they are now about the current batch of immigrants (and worse). But, overall, the US has always welcomed and depended on immigration. We didn't get to be the most powerful country on earth by locking the gates and saying, "enough". So, sure, blame the illegal immigrants. It's easy. None of us probably no any of them anyway. And nevermind the 100s of Billions of dollars folks like Enron hit us for in the past couple of years. No, those folks were well-educated, hard-working (er, playing -- as in gaming the system) Americans who didn't require any expensive social programs to make a decent living. They just took what they wanted directly. No overblown bureaucratic programs required; just needed a few pesky regulations pushed aside "for the benefit of the rate payers".

Go Tony Go!!!!!!! You said it so right

[cybertrano]

Let's get some facts straight for the California economic situation we are in.

It's a combination of the followings, in that order, that lead to our current crisis and tax increase. It got nothing to do with illegals. Who know? pretty soon we will blame earth quakes on illegal immigrants too.

1. The energy crisis - and subsequent Davis's mismanagement of it.
2. A plunging stock market and a faltering economy that hit the Bay Area hi-tech and .com pretty hard.
3. The 911 events.

The following is just one example article, and you can find much more if you use the Internet to do search:






USA
California, reeling from power crisis, now faces economic woes
Associated Press



SACRAMENTO

For two years, California has enjoyed a soaring economy and boom-year budgets. But no more.

Already jolted by a costly power crisis, the state now faces a string of bleak economic news. Just this week has brought a record rate hike, warnings of a massive budget shortfall, downgrading of the state's already poor credit, and cuts of more than $3 billion from the governor's spending blueprint.

The woe comes as California braces for summer blackouts that could further disrupt the economy here — and perhaps across the nation. "The timing is pretty bad," says Tom Leiser, an economist at the University of California Los Angeles's School of Management.

On Wednesday, Legislative Analyst Elizabeth Hill warned that California faces a $4 billion budget shortfall in 2002-03, unless legislators trim Gov. Gray Davis's already-revised $103 billion budget. "It will be much more difficult to correct a $4 billion problem if they don't start today," Ms. Hill told reporters.

Mr. Davis slashed $3.2 billion from his proposed budget Monday, blaming a plunging stock market and a faltering economy reliant on income taxes and stock gains from high-tech workers. On Tuesday, state power regulators boosted rates by up to 80 percent for some customers — the largest increase in state history. In response, Moody's Investors Service downgraded California's credit rating.

Despite the gloom, California may be in better shape than it was during the recession of the early 1990s. "We've simply seen the end of a boom that was created by a soaring stock market," says Sandy Harrison of the state Department of Finance.

[EDF]

To My Good Friend Tony...

I am sorry... but Illegal Immigration is costing us jobs, creates inflation and overburdens our infrasructure...

Lets start with the goo-goos in education... We have to pay extra for the poor - Illegal Immgrants... not only do we educate them... but we are supposed to pay a premium for those Spanish speaking teachers... And by the way... we don't teach them about America... we teach them Mexican History...

I pay my own health insurance... at Kaiser... I hope you never have to use their urgent care facility on Morse Avenue at night or on a weekend.. You will go in there thinking you are in an L.A. county hospital... no one speaks English it seemed to me.. and I had to wait my turn even though I pay premiums....

and you are dead wrong... we take in more Legal Immigrants than all the other countries in the world combined... and Illegal Immigrants just ad to that... your ancestors came here legally... and if they had diseases they didn't get in... we have always had immigration laws...

Tiburculosis... not sure of the spelling here as I type this... but that was wiped out... now its an epedemic in the Immigation community...

Where is it written that we have to import this... Why would any other country do it... Mexico has troops on their southern border... why can't we...

And to make my point about the jobs... when I was growing up... if you didn't go to college and get a degree.. you would go into the trades... yea... you know carpenter... painter... plumber... roofer... and you could make a living at it... But big business likes cheap labor and now you don't hear anything but Mexican folk songs on the radio when you go into a new development... These are jobs that people here could take and would...

And tell me Tony... why is it fair to give IN-STATE TUITION to an Illegal Immigrant who happened to go to High School here and not give it to an American Citizen who is from... say... Nevada...

That's what I call (B)arbara (S)treisand.....