28 replies to this topic

[rpo]

Good to know. I'll confirm that this unit is MiJ before purchasing.

Slight side track: all this research and I've come across a standard I've heard about not familiar with -- what's going on DVD-A and SACD? If these are still relevant technologies, do I need a receiver that specifically supports them? Or is this only implemented in the CD/DVD player and any receiver is fine (ie - even the SR805)?

EDIT: Ugggh. Never mind. Sounds like I need HDMI 1.2 or higher to connect the DVD/SACD player to the receiver (or use a handful of analog cables - not palatable). Still, the question remains -- if I have a receiver that supports HDMI 1.2 or higher (DSD), is that sufficient to play DVDA/SACD? Or do I need to look for specific decoder / feature in the receiver as well?

Probably academic for now but might be good to know in a toss-up between two receivers.

All digital receivers will have the decoder for SACD's and DVDA's. However, you should look for a receiver that has HDMI 1.3 or higher, not 1.2, otherwise you will run into issues with compatibility in the near future. Bluray requires 1.3.

[tsukiji]

All digital receivers will have the decoder for SACD's and DVDA's. However, you should look for a receiver that has HDMI 1.3 or higher, not 1.2, otherwise you will run into issues with compatibility in the near future. Bluray requires 1.3.

Got it. Thanks for the insight.

BTW, do you have SACD's? How do they sound relative to the exact same title on CD? What's the difference in experience? And is it dramatic -- worth it to buy an SACD player? Or is CD good enough?

I'm not so sure about the multi-channel experience (does it sound like musicians are behind you? if so, isn't that odd)? But the higher sampling rate sounds promising.

[rpo]

Got it. Thanks for the insight.

BTW, do you have SACD's? How do they sound relative to the exact same title on CD? What's the difference in experience? And is it dramatic -- worth it to buy an SACD player? Or is CD good enough?

I'm not so sure about the multi-channel experience (does it sound like musicians are behind you? if so, isn't that odd)? But the higher sampling rate sounds promising.

Every DVD player made in the past 10 years that I have seen was capable of playing SACD's and DVDA's even if it was not notated on the unit itself. There is a huge difference in audio quality between DVDA and SACD's vs regular CD's. Each of the audio channels is uncompressed, unlike DVD movies.

I only have a couple DVDA's. The biggest issue is a lack of albums available nowadays due to a lack of popularity. I have had luck in finding albums that are no longer for sale by downloading them online. Shame on me, but I would have purchased them if they were still sold somewhere.

[tsukiji]

Every DVD player made in the past 10 years that I have seen was capable of playing SACD's and DVDA's even if it was not notated on the unit itself. There is a huge difference in audio quality between DVDA and SACD's vs regular CD's. Each of the audio channels is uncompressed, unlike DVD movies.

I only have a couple DVDA's. The biggest issue is a lack of albums available nowadays due to a lack of popularity. I have had luck in finding albums that are no longer for sale by downloading them online. Shame on me, but I would have purchased them if they were still sold somewhere.

Hmmm, sounds interesting. While not all of the receivers I'm chasing have HDMI inputs, it seems that they do all have 5/6/7.1 analog inputs so that they could support SACD if I get the right player (I'd need to upgrade my Sony X111ES). But it sounds like even the Sony BX-37 sold at Costco is good enough (provided the receiver has HDMI as the BX-37 only has 2.1 analog output -- still maybe that's good enough. I'm still not getting the multi-channel audio experience. I'm mostly attracted to the better sound / source quality).

[rpo]

Hmmm, sounds interesting. While not all of the receivers I'm chasing have HDMI inputs, it seems that they do all have 5/6/7.1 analog inputs so that they could support SACD if I get the right player (I'd need to upgrade my Sony X111ES). But it sounds like even the Sony BX-37 sold at Costco is good enough (provided the receiver has HDMI as the BX-37 only has 2.1 analog output -- still maybe that's good enough. I'm still not getting the multi-channel audio experience. I'm mostly attracted to the better sound / source quality).

Avoid using analog connections. Any DVD player will have a 5.1 digital output over RCA or optical. Any new audio received that does surround sound will have RCA and optical digital inputs.

[tsukiji]

Avoid using analog connections. Any DVD player will have a 5.1 digital output over RCA or optical. Any new audio received that does surround sound will have RCA and optical digital inputs.

That sounds good for movies. But my understanding from doing a little reading recently is that SACD can only use HDMI 1.2+ or Analog --- it will not allow digital optical or coax because of copy protection. Is this not the case? I was hoping it would all work over digital optical but pirates seem to once again make it harder for the rest of us.

[rpo]

That sounds good for movies. But my understanding from doing a little reading recently is that SACD can only use HDMI 1.2+ or Analog --- it will not allow digital optical or coax because of copy protection. Is this not the case? I was hoping it would all work over digital optical but pirates seem to once again make it harder for the rest of us.

I have ONLY used SACD's and DVDA's over a digital optical connection.

I do not even own a home DVD or CD or Bluray player now. Everything is bitstreamed HDMI over my home network now through a single device. (SageTV) It is honestly the best thing I have ever purchased.

[stangage70]

Every DVD player made in the past 10 years that I have seen was capable of playing SACD's and DVDA's even if it was not notated on the unit itself. There is a huge difference in audio quality between DVDA and SACD's vs regular CD's. Each of the audio channels is uncompressed, unlike DVD movies.

I only have a couple DVDA's. The biggest issue is a lack of albums available nowadays due to a lack of popularity. I have had luck in finding albums that are no longer for sale by downloading them online. Shame on me, but I would have purchased them if they were still sold somewhere.

I disagree with some of your assertions.

Most DVD players do NOT play SACD or DVD-A disks in their native format. Pioneer made many that did. Several RECENT Sony's play SACD, but not DVD-A MLP. Most all SACD's will play as CD's in any CD player, but you don't get the advantage of DSD.

Also the DVD-A audio may be compressed - however with lossless compression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Audio

However I will agree there is a lack of content. I have one DVD-A disk, but I sold my Pioneer player that worked with it about a year ago, so I just can play the DTS DVD side...

I have ONLY used SACD's and DVDA's over a digital optical connection.

Then you didn't get the full SACD or DVD-A experience. Neither is supported on SPDIF. What you got was something else like stereo PCM conversion.

[stangage70]

Slight side track: all this research and I've come across a standard I've heard about not familiar with -- what's going on DVD-A and SACD? If these are still relevant technologies, do I need a receiver that specifically supports them? Or is this only implemented in the CD/DVD player and any receiver is fine (ie - even the SR805)?

EDIT: Ugggh. Never mind. Sounds like I need HDMI 1.2 or higher to connect the DVD/SACD player to the receiver (or use a handful of analog cables - not palatable). Still, the question remains -- if I have a receiver that supports HDMI 1.2 or higher (DSD), is that sufficient to play DVDA/SACD? Or do I need to look for specific decoder / feature in the receiver as well?

The TX-SR805 and similar decode DSD natively on the receiver. Some receivers do not...

The Sony BX-37 you mentioned earlier would work fine for DSD. This player would also convert to PCM over HDMI for use on receivers that don't support DSD natively.

[rpo]

I disagree with some of your assertions.

Most DVD players do NOT play SACD or DVD-A disks in their native format. Pioneer made many that did. Several RECENT Sony's play SACD, but not DVD-A MLP. Most all SACD's will play as CD's in any CD player, but you don't get the advantage of DSD.

Also the DVD-A audio may be compressed - however with lossless compression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Audio

However I will agree there is a lack of content. I have one DVD-A disk, but I sold my Pioneer player that worked with it about a year ago, so I just can play the DTS DVD side...

Both of my DVD players that I purchased in 2004 played DVD-A and SACD's just fine, and that is when I purchased my small collection of said albums as well. One of the DVD players was a high-end Samsung ($300) and the other was an off-brand POS (sub-$50).

Then you didn't get the full SACD or DVD-A experience. Neither is supported on SPDIF. What you got was something else like stereo PCM conversion.

It was not stereo PCM. It was DD 5.1 over optical (toslink) as per the receiver's auto detect. The RCA digital connection was the same as well. Granted the surround channels are compressed, but that is part of the limitations of DD and DTS. The audio quality was still miles beyond standard 2 channel CD's.

[stangage70]

Both of my DVD players that I purchased in 2004 played DVD-A and SACD's just fine, and that is when I purchased my small collection of said albums as well. One of the DVD players was a high-end Samsung ($300) and the other was an off-brand POS (sub-$50).

It was not stereo PCM. It was DD 5.1 over optical (toslink) as per the receiver's auto detect. The RCA digital connection was the same as well. Granted the surround channels are compressed, but that is part of the limitations of DD and DTS. The audio quality was still miles beyond standard 2 channel CD's.

Do you know what model units these were?

I can see a high-end Samsung supporting SACD/DVDA. They sold several universal players about that time, which did indeed support these formats... However not over SPDIF like what you suggest. Here is what I found here (DVD-HD841): http://downloadcente...68_HD841XAA.pdf

• DVD-AUDIO only plays back two channel audio through the Digital Audio out. Multi-channel DVD-Audio discs
are output through the Analog outputs.
• Super Audio CD plays back only through the Analog outputs.

I am really surprised that a "POS" off brand would do proper SACD support. The SACD requires the laser to operate at a different focal length, or else it just reads the CD layer. It is hard for me to believe you would find that technology in a POS. I knew of only a handful of <=$300 players in 2004 that did play SACD. I would like to expand my knowledge based on your experience.

Of course HDMI 1.3 and Blu-Ray solve this... One gets a universal format, which supports multi-channel lossless audio at high sample & bit rates over digital interconnect.... SACD and DVDA are not as relevant anymore.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

[rpo]

Do you know what model units these were?

I can see a high-end Samsung supporting SACD/DVDA. They sold several universal players about that time, which did indeed support these formats... However not over SPDIF like what you suggest. Here is what I found here (DVD-HD841): http://downloadcente...68_HD841XAA.pdf



I am really surprised that a "POS" off brand would do proper SACD support. The SACD requires the laser to operate at a different focal length, or else it just reads the CD layer. It is hard for me to believe you would find that technology in a POS. I knew of only a handful of <=$300 players in 2004 that did play SACD. I would like to expand my knowledge based on your experience.

Of course HDMI 1.3 and Blu-Ray solve this... One gets a universal format, which supports multi-channel lossless audio at high sample & bit rates over digital interconnect.... SACD and DVDA are not as relevant anymore.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I will try to find the model of the Samsung tomorrow and at least the brand name of the off-brand unit as well. I do remember that the off-brand did not mention anything about SACD or DVD-A support on the unit or in the manual, but it played both just fine. In fact, the high-end Samsung model did not even have analog multi-channel outputs and would take over a minute to start playing a SACD. The off-brand would play immediately. DVD-A discs occasionally would have a menu to choose songs from, as I am sure you have seen before.

[stangage70]

I will try to find the model of the Samsung tomorrow and at least the brand name of the off-brand unit as well. I do remember that the off-brand did not mention anything about SACD or DVD-A support on the unit or in the manual, but it played both just fine. In fact, the high-end Samsung model did not even have analog multi-channel outputs and would take over a minute to start playing a SACD. The off-brand would play immediately. DVD-A discs occasionally would have a menu to choose songs from, as I am sure you have seen before.

I tried to find reference to the type of machines you describe, but I cannot locate any. I would like to know the model of the Samsung at least. Thank you for humoring me.

I only have one DVD-A. It doesn't have a special menu, but did have some basic imagery that would be displayed per song. I no longer have a DVD-A player, so I have to rely on the DTS mix on the other side instead.

Another little tid-bit of info. Starting this year, newly introduced disc players will not be able to drive HD formatted (protected) content on analog ports. Licensing agreements limit those ports to 480i/576i, which effectively removes the interest for component video connections. HD video is restricted to digital ports. Companies must retire their old models by 2013 end. I don't think this applies to DVD-A or SACD audio, however. One can probably still get 6 channel HD audio (Blu-ray) over analog on some players too.

[tsukiji]

Hi there,

New question that I hope you can help me understand.

Okay -- my set up now is a pre-amp / processor with analog outputs going into the analog direct inputs of a receiver. Basically, I'm using a receiver just as an amp with all the pre-amp/processing done by the pre-amp/proc.

Both units have volume controls.

Questions:

1) what is 0dB volume?

2) Should I set the receiver volume to some level (say 0dB) and adjust the volume going to the speakers w/ the pre-amp? Or should I set the pre-amp volume to some level (say 0dB) and use the receiver to adjust volume to the speakers? Or just mix it all up - doesn't matter as long as the speakers get some minimum level of volume.

Thanks.