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Sac City Budget Shortfall


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#16 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:46 AM

Supermom, Why should we pass a law that makes the law abiding citizens responsible for criminals actions? This is the mindset of the politicians in sacramento, is it any wonder why they have the challenges they do?

Maybe we should pass a law that says if you EVER break into someone else's home/car you will be locked up for life?



#17 supermom

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:26 AM

QUOTE(Robert Giacometti @ May 31 2007, 09:46 AM) View Post
Supermom, Why should we pass a law that makes the law abiding citizens responsible for criminals actions? This is the mindset of the politicians in sacramento, is it any wonder why they have the challenges they do?

Maybe we should pass a law that says if you EVER break into someone else's home/car you will be locked up for life?

If you are willing to buy and possess a weapon why shouldn't you have a strong sense of protectiveness toward that weapon?

With the protectiveness of that weapon comes registration (gun)-insurance (home). So when you are burglarized- what do you do first?

...1)call the cops

...2)call the insurance company

...3)complain with impotent rage that as an affluent member of Folsom society you had a right to live in said such neighborhood without fear that your home and posessions would not be stolen and then be used to committ another crime and possibly killing another human being.(if you had properly stored your weapon it would not have been stolen)

So let's look at that. Yeah you call the cops. They come take pictures promise to make copies to forward to your insurance company. They fill out paperwork and then when you have a police report you can actually make a claim.

The weapon that was stolen is immediately put into a database as a stolen weapon. Later on the weapon is found and through that the law enforcement agencies are able to better track the whereabouts of the crimminal as well as s/he "friends". Because you followed not just the law but aided the law enforcement in documenting the loss of your weapon A) it won't come back to bite you in the A@@ when someone is killed and the weapon is found at the scene, B) the police and the law abiding society are actually working together to track and stop crimminals.

So why wouldn't you want this bill to pass?

#18 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:59 AM

QUOTE(supermom @ May 31 2007, 10:26 AM) View Post
If you are willing to buy and possess a weapon why shouldn't you have a strong sense of protectiveness toward that weapon?

With the protectiveness of that weapon comes registration (gun)-insurance (home). So when you are burglarized- what do you do first?

...1)call the cops

...2)call the insurance company

...3)complain with impotent rage that as an affluent member of Folsom society you had a right to live in said such neighborhood without fear that your home and posessions would not be stolen and then be used to committ another crime and possibly killing another human being.(if you had properly stored your weapon it would not have been stolen)

So let's look at that. Yeah you call the cops. They come take pictures promise to make copies to forward to your insurance company. They fill out paperwork and then when you have a police report you can actually make a claim.

The weapon that was stolen is immediately put into a database as a stolen weapon. Later on the weapon is found and through that the law enforcement agencies are able to better track the whereabouts of the crimminal as well as s/he "friends". Because you followed not just the law but aided the law enforcement in documenting the loss of your weapon A) it won't come back to bite you in the A@@ when someone is killed and the weapon is found at the scene, B) the police and the law abiding society are actually working together to track and stop crimminals.

So why wouldn't you want this bill to pass?


Law abiding citizens already cooperate with the police, they understand and respect what needs to be done without some politician telling them what to do. Sadly we have some misguided souls who firmly believe they are really doing something good when they pass laws like these.

When politicians pass laws that make law abiding citizens responsible for criminals actions is where we have gone so bassackwards in this country.

If we made it a law that if you broke into someone's home/car, you were caught and convicted and the punishement was never seeing freedom again, wouldn't that reduce crime more than making gun owners liable for NOT reporting their stolen guns?

In the situation you indicate above, even if the person files the report with the police and the police have a serial number to track the gun, if the criminal kills someone with the stolen gun, what did it prevent by having this law in place?



#19 supermom

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:23 AM

QUOTE(Robert Giacometti @ May 31 2007, 10:59 AM) View Post
Law abiding citizens already cooperate with the police, they understand and respect what needs to be done without some politician telling them what to do.


I disagree. Many people just get scared-or overlook the need to report the weapon as missing/stolen. Really what you feel may be a well intentioned person who cooperates with law enforcement may not necessarily come into place UNLESS it is a documented law that they report the missing/stolen weapon.


If we made it a law that if you broke into someone's home/car, you were caught and convicted and the punishment was never seeing freedom again, wouldn't that reduce crime more than making gun owners liable for NOT reporting their stolen guns?

I hardly think burglarizing a home is worthy of life imprisonment. Using the gains of that crime to perpetuate a murder-yes. So the first line of defense from this type of crime is to properly secure your property and possessions. The second is to follow the law and cooperate with law enforcement agencies. (Don't actually think people are going to tell cops their guns are missing-unless it is mandated by law.)


In the situation you indicate above, even if the person files the report with the police and the police have a serial number to track the gun, if the criminal kills someone with the stolen gun, what did it prevent by having this law in place?



Well, I think it could help. A) in some areas of a region there may be a growing trend for weapon trafficking. If that is the case the police may be better able to prevent another break in and theft of a weapon by watching certain patterns. Those patterns will not be apparent -until after a violent crime has been taken if police only know about missing weapons upon finding the weapon in the hands of a killer.

Certainly the same would apply for gangs-drug-glory killings (perpetuated by teens) and other types of illegal activities. So tracking stolen weapons within neighborhoods would help.

Further, you could consider your self "off the hook" from any illegal activities that happen after you have notified law enforcement of your weapon missing.

The thing I find interesting is that you are asking why should it be a law-to report a crime that has happened.

So, if someone is mugged in front of you-you are required by law to report it (good Samaritan law)

But if someone takes a deadly weapon from your house with the intent (yes it is intent because by stealing it they are already showing illegal activities regarding someone Else's property) to use that weapon to perpetuate another crime then you don't feel it should be mandated to report the theft of that weapon?

I find your logic not thoroughly formulated and wonder what is amiss?


#20 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:28 AM

Supermom, I'm opposed to the bigger ideals of creating more laws that make victims possible criminals and the simple minded politicians who think they are really accomplishing something when they do this.

This law won't prevent a criminal from stealing a gun and committing a crime with it. The focus of responsibility is on the wrong party.

Its not uncommon for large cities to waste their time , energy and resources on laws like this and actually believing they are going to make a difference, instead of truly addressing the real problems with real solutions.



#21 supermom

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:42 AM

QUOTE(Robert Giacometti @ May 31 2007, 12:28 PM) View Post
Supermom, I'm opposed to the bigger ideals of creating more laws that make victims possible criminals and the simple minded politicians who think they are really accomplishing something when they do this.

This law won't prevent a criminal from stealing a gun and committing a crime with it. The focus of responsibility is on the wrong party.

Its not uncommon for large cities to waste their time , energy and resources on laws like this and actually believing they are going to make a difference, instead of truly addressing the real problems with real solutions.

Ok I can live with that answer except for one thing. You may be a victim (if you want to see it that way) but you are aiding in the act of a felony if you do not report the weapon being stolen/missing. I do not see this as making a law to turn victims into crimminals.

I see this as an answer to the poor schmuck who is living with a nut and gets their weapon stolen by a housemate -then that person goes out and commits murder. The schmuck living with this loon is afraid to piss off the bad guy. If the schmuck is more afraid of going to prison for someone else-then the law has just saved another persons life. Period.

As for large cities or communities wasting their time--well, I don't see it that way. A fellow in a drive by or road rage or crime of passion or even a serial nut job-- they all had that one thing in common. They stole a weapon from someone else (because we are talking about stolen weapons) and killed another human being. It's not a waste of time or resources. It's being realistic in that law enforcement is asking for citizens to step up and take the responsibility to inform them when a controlled item (afterall a gun is registered by the owner because it is a deadly weapon)has been stolen.

#22 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 12:12 PM

QUOTE(supermom @ May 31 2007, 12:42 PM) View Post
I see this as an answer to the poor schmuck who is living with a nut and gets their weapon stolen by a housemate -then that person goes out and commits murder. The schmuck living with this loon is afraid to piss off the bad guy. If the schmuck is more afraid of going to prison for someone else-then the law has just saved another persons life. Period.


How is this an answer? If somebody is willing to steal a gun do you really think they care if the gun is registered and reported stolen? Would that prevent some criminal from using a registered gun in a crime, if the penalty of committing the crime isn't deterent enough already?

FYI, I don't own a gun and I am NOT a member of the NRA, I just oppose needless laws created by misguided politicians regardless of their party.

Every new law contributes to job security for bureacracy!

#23 mylo

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE(Robert Giacometti @ May 31 2007, 01:12 PM) View Post
How is this an answer? If somebody is willing to steal a gun do you really think they care if the gun is registered and reported stolen? Would that prevent some criminal from using a registered gun in a crime, if the penalty of committing the crime isn't deterent enough already?

I understand the argument to be "If a stolen weapon is reported, law enforcement may find the gun during a routine stop, etc. and confiscate it prior to a crime being committed."

Although, I think the fact they find a weapon in the hands of someone it's not registered to should tip them off the same. Unless they're saying they're going to go out and actively try and find it in the vicinity of the reported theft.
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#24 supermom

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:13 PM

QUOTE(mylo @ May 31 2007, 01:32 PM) View Post
I understand the argument to be "If a stolen weapon is reported, law enforcement may find the gun during a routine stop, etc. and confiscate it prior to a crime being committed."

Although, I think the fact they find a weapon in the hands of someone it's not registered to should tip them off the same. Unless they're saying they're going to go out and actively try and find it in the vicinity of the reported theft.

See, now your getting to the cusp of this argument.

Stealing a gun is and is not like stealing a bike.

To the average passerby they all look alike. You wouldn't notice it-even if it was legally being displayed-or hidden away.

But just once if you reported it missing and it pops up on a casual search- you would save a life.

Here's a funny thing though. For those people who had a weapon stolen-that they never registered or just didn't even like- well they won't report it. Maybe reopening peoples eyes and making them aware that they will be held accountable for not informing police of a stolen weapon would be incentive for people to treat their weapons with more attentive detail when storing them.

#25 Robert Giacometti

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:16 PM

QUOTE(mylo @ May 31 2007, 01:32 PM) View Post
I understand the argument to be "If a stolen weapon is reported, law enforcement may find the gun during a routine stop, etc. and confiscate it prior to a crime being committed."

Although, I think the fact they find a weapon in the hands of someone it's not registered to should tip them off the same. Unless they're saying they're going to go out and actively try and find it in the vicinity of the reported theft.


At one time to own a gun a person had to have a FOI card and if you are carrying a concealed weapon I believe you need to have a special permit. I don't know what the registration requirements are currently for owning a gun.

If someone was stopped and they had a stolen gun on them, without the proper card or permit, I don't know what the current penalty is for that. Whatever it is maybe the penalty isn't enough of a deterent to stop people from breaking the law. If the penalty was increased, I feel that is the solution to reducing crime rather than, rather than forcing law abiding citizens to report a crime when they probably do it already.

I can't help but sense this is somehow an attempt for Sacramento to try and address the Gun Control issue, that many of their elected officials may be supportive of.

#26 DrKoz23

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:59 PM

A lot of Prop 1E money ($3B of about $4B)... passed last year will go toward the Central Valley flood control system repairs and improvements. This includes Delta levee repairs and maintenance as well.

For a good boring read...

http://www.lao.ca.go.../1E_11_2006.pdf




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