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Rails Or Trails?


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#31 john

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 02:15 PM

On the other hand how many people would really use whatever railway they put in? Yeah it's charming and historic but how many times will you need to go to Apple Hill to support the thing? The 20 people on the forum here aren't going to keep the thing funded. And people love their cars and the abitlity to come and go as they please.

Wait for the train to go back home? Hmmmm...

This idea is kinda like the little brother to the high speed railway IMHO.



You have to understand how it's being envisioned.

Here is a similar rail stretch that was no longer used and is now used for tourist trains. Carson City and Virginia City get a huge boost each day from railroad enthusiasts. Every day they get people that don't live there to visit their town.
http://www.virginiatruckee.com/

Have you ever visited Carson City or Virginia City? My guess is - no.

It's a really fun trip - Virginia City is worth the visit for sure. I'll tell you this, we made a weekend out of it when we did it and pumped a few hundred in to Carson City's economy. There are so many people in the Bay Area and Northern CA that are potential riders of a steam train. Think of how many people would drive up for the weekend for this trip - they'd be eating and staying in Folsom. That's a huge boost for tourism.

Folsom residents are not the niche they are going for - there is a huge contingent of people who go crazy for old trains. They live all over the world.


#32 123

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 03:27 PM

You have to understand how it's being envisioned.

Here is a similar rail stretch that was no longer used and is now used for tourist trains. Carson City and Virginia City get a huge boost each day from railroad enthusiasts. Every day they get people that don't live there to visit their town.
http://www.virginiatruckee.com/

Have you ever visited Carson City or Virginia City? My guess is - no.

It's a really fun trip - Virginia City is worth the visit for sure. I'll tell you this, we made a weekend out of it when we did it and pumped a few hundred in to Carson City's economy. There are so many people in the Bay Area and Northern CA that are potential riders of a steam train. Think of how many people would drive up for the weekend for this trip - they'd be eating and staying in Folsom. That's a huge boost for tourism.

Folsom residents are not the niche they are going for - there is a huge contingent of people who go crazy for old trains. They live all over the world.


So I was reading the website you posted here. Under the history it said "Following the local sale of the railway’s structures and properties, the rails between Reno and Minden were finally removed and the famous V&T became but a legend." Then another website said this, "Full Steam Ahead: Reconstruction of the V & T

In the early 1990s, V & T enthusiasts along with Storey County, Carson City, and state officials began studying the possibility of reconstructing the historic rail line between Virginia City and Carson City. A financial study was commissioned, which indicated that the railroad was feasible, and the non-profit Nevada Commission for the Reconstruction of the V & T Railway was created to raise money for the project, estimated to cost $25 million when completed." And ultimately it cost this from another website, "Recently, the $55 million Virginia and Truckee Railroad was established with $10 million in federal funding and $1 million in state funding."

Sounds like this revival of the railroad could be like the new high speed rail - no one knowing how much it's really going to cost. Spending $55 million is one way to revive a rural economy. If the other guy is right about how much this new train is going to drive up the cost of the trail, I say have a little of both, rather than one or the other, or neither for an indefinite period. People go crazy all over the world for trails too. http://ridethisbike....s_worldwide.htm

#33 nomad

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 03:28 PM

You have to understand how it's being envisioned.

Here is a similar rail stretch that was no longer used and is now used for tourist trains. Carson City and Virginia City get a huge boost each day from railroad enthusiasts. Every day they get people that don't live there to visit their town.
http://www.virginiatruckee.com/

Have you ever visited Carson City or Virginia City? My guess is - no.

It's a really fun trip - Virginia City is worth the visit for sure. I'll tell you this, we made a weekend out of it when we did it and pumped a few hundred in to Carson City's economy. There are so many people in the Bay Area and Northern CA that are potential riders of a steam train. Think of how many people would drive up for the weekend for this trip - they'd be eating and staying in Folsom. That's a huge boost for tourism.

Folsom residents are not the niche they are going for - there is a huge contingent of people who go crazy for old trains. They live all over the world.


So essentially you're of the mind that "if you build it they will come." Perhaps. It may take a long time to establish and get the word out but I guess time will tell.

#34 Carl G

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 04:41 PM

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize they had already torn out some railroad tracks. The trails are nice, but it's a shame to lose the track.

I wonder if people here will really use the trails that much. Seems like they shy away from seeing a coyote, and now we're talking about trails going further up in the hills where they are much more likely to encounter mountain lions & bears.

I've wondered about the mountain lion thing. If I recall correctly about 15 years ago a runner was attacked and killed in the foothills. Would bikers be in danger, or are they moving too fast to be a target?

#35 chris v

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 04:58 PM

Let's learn a couple things and dissolve the myths about bears and mountain lions. The ones you see down here and in the lower foothills are many times more dangerous than the ones up in the mountains. The ones in the mountains have little to no human contact and are way more scared of humans than the ones down here. If anyone is concerned about these animals I suggest you don't venture out anywhere.

#36 SunshineServices

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 05:39 PM

On the other hand how many people would really use whatever railway they put in? Yeah it's charming and historic but how many times will you need to go to Apple Hill to support the thing? The 20 people on the forum here aren't going to keep the thing funded. And people love their cars and the abitlity to come and go as they please.

Wait for the train to go back home? Hmmmm...

This idea is kinda like the little brother to the high speed railway IMHO.


Well the 300+ Excursion Railroads across the country seem to be doing ok. Believe it or not, people will actually make plans to come and ride the train, and then maybe stay in Folsom and spend some more money.

So essentially you're of the mind that "if you build it they will come." Perhaps. It may take a long time to establish and get the word out but I guess time will tell.


I can pretty much guarantee that more folks would come for a railroad than a trail.
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#37 ducky

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 05:49 PM

Let's learn a couple things and dissolve the myths about bears and mountain lions. The ones you see down here and in the lower foothills are many times more dangerous than the ones up in the mountains. The ones in the mountains have little to no human contact and are way more scared of humans than the ones down here. If anyone is concerned about these animals I suggest you don't venture out anywhere.


chris v, I'm not suggesting people don't venture out.

A turkey hunter was attacked by a mountain lion back in about 1999 somewhere and a woman running was killed in Cool, CA, back in about '94. Bike riders have been attacked in So Cal. It's rare, but it's something to be aware of - not panicked about.

My other concern would be for the wildlife itself. Human encounters don't always work out so great for them either.

#38 Carl G

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 05:54 PM

Well the 300+ Excursion Railroads across the country seem to be doing ok. Believe it or not, people will actually make plans to come and ride the train, and then maybe stay in Folsom and spend some more money.



I can pretty much guarantee that more folks would come for a railroad than a trail.

I think an excursion train would be a nice tourist attraction here in Folsom. I believe it would generate more jobs and tax revenue than a bike trail ever would. An excursion train would be available to almost every single person, but a bike trail would be limited to a select few.

#39 chris v

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:14 PM

Isn't there already an excursion train in Folsom over near city hall?

#40 123

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:28 PM

I think an excursion train would be a nice tourist attraction here in Folsom. I believe it would generate more jobs and tax revenue than a bike trail ever would. An excursion train would be available to almost every single person, but a bike trail would be limited to a select few.


I disagree. Everyone I know moving into Folsom is moving here because of the trail. Although many of us have gone to the train museum downtown, I don't know anyone who has ridden the train. I know plenty of people who use the trail, and those who come down the 80 and 50 corridors to use the trail. Maybe it's just a generation gap between us.

#41 tony

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:32 PM

I can pretty much guarantee that more folks would come for a railroad than a trail.

Really? The American River Parkway has over 5 million users per year (according to Sacramento County Parks Dept.). How many could an excursion train carry running a couple of trains per weekend? My best guestimate, 10s of thousands per year, tops.

I've wondered about the mountain lion thing. If I recall correctly about 15 years ago a runner was attacked and killed in the foothills. Would bikers be in danger, or are they moving too fast to be a target?

Just a couple of weeks ago there was an extensive thread on Mt Lions. Yes, a runner was killed in Auburn about 15 years ago. There have been a total of about 14 (I'm going by memory from the last thread) mt. lion deaths in the entire US over the past 100 years. You're much more likely to get struck by lightning, twice!

#42 tony

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:33 PM

OK, now for my opinion. I happen to be a fan of excursion trains, having ridden some of the best, including the Combres and Toltec (NM and CO), Georgetown Loop (CO), Durango-Silverton, one of the best in the world, the one in Santa Cruz, as well as the Sacramento River train, the one in Woodland, the Folsom run from Iron Point to White Rock and, of course, the Zoo Train. I've also biked on some great rails-to-trails, such as the Biz Johnson trail in Susanville, the Little Miami Trail in Ohio and the existing portions of the El Dorado Trail (I designed part of it, too), all of which were constructed after removing the rails.

I think the idea of rails with trails is great (one reason is because it allows bicyclists to combine a bike ride and train ride to double their range; people do it using light rail to Folsom all the time; I did it with the Durango-Silverton). But I also think that it's important to recognize that, as has been pointed out already, building a bike path alongside the existing tracks will be significantly more expensive than building along the rail bed because of the terrain in the foothills. The trails in Folsom built alongside the tracks did not have to deal with the terrain constraints found in many places along the SPTC corridor.

One of my pet peeves with this whole decision-making process is that no-one has done a basic feasibility study to put some real numbers on these costs (and ditto for the financial viability of an excursion rail). So we have folks trying to make significant decisions about a 30-mile corridor without much in the way of data.

Another thing I think is generally missing from this discussion, although one person mentioned it, is that the proposed compromise would remove portions of the rails (between Latrobe and Shingle Springs, while still leaving significant chunks of track for the proposed excursion trains from Folsom and El Dorado. The question that has to be asked is, is it realistic to expect excursion trains to run over a distance of nearly 30 miles, particularly given the fact that the two railroad groups have been working at this for nearly 20 years and still do not have scheduled service? Granted, there are long excursion train routes -- the D-S has 46 miles of track they use -- but most excursion trains are only a couple of miles long. Is it really necessary to tie up long sections of track that will not realistically ever carry trains, at great expense to a multi-use path of national significance (because it will be both part of the CA cross-state trail and the Western Express bike touring route).?

As for usage, there is no question that a bike path would be dramatically more heavily used than an excursion train (see my other reply), if for no other reason than availability and cost. An excursion train, at best, will have several runs a day on weekends, and maybe, a couple on weekdays. Multi-use paths get used by walkers, joggers, bicyclists, equestrians and people in wheelchairs from before sunrise to after sunset 365 days a year. And while a train certainly has the potential to get some people farther along than they might on foot or in a wheelchair, most excursion trains travel slower than casual bicyclists, so a multi-use path would provide many more people the opportunity to see more of the corridor than an excursion train (or even two). Many people who use the trails, use them several times a week (I use them 5 to 7 times a week). Most people will only ride an excursion train once or twice.

As for economic benefit, I'm sure both have the potential, and I am aware of several studies documenting the economic benefits of paths. So, this is at best a toss-up. Both would be better than just one. Anecdotally, my brother is part owner of a bar/restaurant in Loveland, OH that relies heavily on traffic on the adjacent rail-to-trail. Ask Karen Holmes or the owners of the Sutter St. Grille if the ARP brings in any business.

Yes, I think the rails should be preserved...in part. I am not convinced that there is good reason to keep them all the way from Folsom to Missouri Flat Road, just in case sometime in the distant future there might possibly if folks are really lucky be an excursion train that wants to get longer, at great additional cost to construction of what will be a spectacular doubling of the American River Parkway. Check out the portions that are built already from Missouri Flat to Forni Road (where the existing RR bridge was converted to trail use) and from Placerville to Camino. They are fabulous to walk or ride, and many, many people do it every day. Again, I think having both, for portions of the corridor would be great, and may even help in obtaining funding, but a real feasibility study needs to be done in order to make some informed decisions. And I suspect that would show that the certain segments of the rails would best be removed, while others should be saved...something like the compromise on the table.

Final note, it should be noted that there are very few places for a safe family bike ride on the western slope of El Dorado County. The SPTC is a spectacular opportunity.

#43 tony

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:36 PM

I disagree. Everyone I know moving into Folsom is moving here because of the trail. Although many of us have gone to the train museum downtown, I don't know anyone who has ridden the train. I know plenty of people who use the trail, and those who come down the 80 and 50 corridors to use the trail. Maybe it's just a generation gap between us.

Bingo! How do the developers advertise their homes? With pictures of people riding bikes. How does the city's tourism bureau advertise? They had a major campaign on bicycling.

Why do I live here? Because of the bike path system...and, interestingly, the Historic District (including the RR history).

#44 ducky

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:18 PM

Good post, tony.

Is there any chance there could be both rails and trails by having the train head out to Amador County wineries instead and the bike trail go up the hill or has there just been too much work done already to switch gears? Don't mean to open up a can of worms, but it was just a thought I had, and,like many of my ideas, probably not worth the paper computer screen it was written on.

#45 Carl G

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:06 PM

I live about 1 mile from the American River and have been riding on it for the last 18 years. I think the people attracted to riding a train track trail are a very different crowd than what use the trail along the river. We have many trails already, but no real excursion train to speak of here in Sacramento. Yes I know about, and have ridden many, many times, the excursion train in Old Sacramento, but a four mile trip is not that long.

So given the multitude of places to ride bikes already, why on earth would we destroy the one train track we have in the area that would be useful for excursion purposes?




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