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Suv / Bicycle Collision July 3 On E Natoma


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#16 ducky

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:34 PM

Actually, rarely is it the case that the police automatically assume the motorist was in the wrong. In fact, it's usually the opposite, especially when there is a fatality involved. Then the motorist invariably states that the bicyclist, pedestrian or little kid came out of nowhere with no possibility of stopping, and gets off without so much as a ticket.

The difference is that I added to the list of recent crashes on major streets, and, yes, digressed to note that speed (which was already a topic in the thread) held even more risk for bicyclists and pedestrians. I was just emphasizing the risk of speed. That's not quite the same as flipping the topic from cyclist hit by car, motorist presumably at fault, to bicyclist does stupid thing and almost causes a crash. That reeks of the bike bashing that is so common here.

But, yes, it always makes me feel a little better to know that the distracted drivers occasionally get their due.


Well, maybe I owe you and fatfender an apology if you took it as bashing.

I'm kind of with Old Soldier on my personal choice to avoid bike lanes. I've seen too many drivers in town and elsewhere that seem to think they are an extra lane on the road or weave into them.

I was running up Blue Ravine about two weeks ago and some women were riding down the sidewalk. I hopped off into the bike lane so they could continue without trying to jump a curb. One of them apologized for making me get off the sidewalk, but I told her it was not a problem because that's exactly where I would feel safer riding. I've done that many times for kids, riding bikes, too. I figure I'm only in the bike lane for a few seconds and I can see oncoming traffic.

You riders who brave the bike lanes on a regular basis have more mettle than I.

Heal quicky, fatfender.

#17 tony

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:52 PM

Well, maybe I owe you and fatfender an apology if you took it as bashing.

I'm kind of with Old Soldier on my personal choice to avoid bike lanes. I've seen too many drivers in town and elsewhere that seem to think they are an extra lane on the road or weave into them.

I was running up Blue Ravine about two weeks ago and some women were riding down the sidewalk. I hopped off into the bike lane so they could continue without trying to jump a curb. One of them apologized for making me get off the sidewalk, but I told her it was not a problem because that's exactly where I would feel safer riding. I've done that many times for kids, riding bikes, too. I figure I'm only in the bike lane for a few seconds and I can see oncoming traffic.

You riders who brave the bike lanes on a regular basis have more mettle than I.

Heal quicky, fatfender.

Thanks,Ducky!

As for riding on the sidewalk, I would only say that (in addition to being illegal, though tolerated, in Folsom), unless you are a kid under 10, in most cases (with the exception of some of the wide sidewalks along roads such as Iron Point that have very few driveways), riding on the sidewalk is more dangerous than riding on the street, unless you are going to become a pedestrian to cross every street. Otherwise, what happened to fatfenders is much more likely to happen to you, especially if you are riding against traffic.

#18 ducky

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:08 PM

Thanks,Ducky!

As for riding on the sidewalk, I would only say that (in addition to being illegal, though tolerated, in Folsom), unless you are a kid under 10, in most cases (with the exception of some of the wide sidewalks along roads such as Iron Point that have very few driveways), riding on the sidewalk is more dangerous than riding on the street, unless you are going to become a pedestrian to cross every street. Otherwise, what happened to fatfenders is much more likely to happen to you, especially if you are riding against traffic.


I don't dispute your reasoning, but I still can't fight the instinct that cars rushing past you from behind at speeds ranging from 25 to 60 miles an hour (I have going down Riley from Oak Ave Pkwy to Blue Ravine in mind when I say this) just isn't safe. How do you get used to that? I'd rather be on the sidwalk there. I never trust people turning left or out of driveways to stop or see me whether running or riding.

#19 fatfenders

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:26 PM

Hope he signs it! If you would like to borrow my copy in the mean time, please let me know.


Tony,
"Too Funny X 2"!
Between my last post and this one, I went out and got the mail. And, of course, there was my (Signed) copy of "Bicycling and the Law"!
So thanks for the offer to borrow your copy but, of course, not needed now.
Also, thanks for the offer to help me find a lawyer but while chatting with Bob I asked him..."how in the heck do you make any money from the "Contact" tab on you website. I mean, how many callers live near enough to you to for them to hire you? He indicated that about one in 30 calls result in a few bucks for him by way of recommending someone local to the caller.(He must know a lot of lawyers who do "bicycle law"). Anyway, after nearly an hour of free legal advice and a book on the subject I will be contacting him again regarding someone local in the hope he can pick up a few bucks out of the deal.
Along with the book I also received the (2) "Tachyon" helmet cams I ordered right after the collision for my bride and I. Just one more way to deal with "Bicycling and the law". After this last adventure we have committed to recording all of our bike trips. Just can't hurt. The Tachyon has a continuous loop feature and will record around 4 hours with a 16g card.
BTW, did you just spin RAGBRAI?
Sounds like we might have fun swap'n lies... Be glad to buy you a Starbucks if you have a mind.

#20 fatfenders

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:36 PM

I don't dispute your reasoning, but I still can't fight the instinct that cars rushing past you from behind at speeds ranging from 25 to 60 miles an hour (I have going down Riley from Oak Ave Pkwy to Blue Ravine in mind when I say this) just isn't safe. How do you get used to that? I'd rather be on the sidwalk there. I never trust people turning left or out of driveways to stop or see me whether running or riding.

Ducky,
Your points are well taken but lets face it, just a whole lotta situations we find ourselves (biking, driving, walking) require nothing more and nothing less than faith .
Every time you are driving in the inside lane and someone coming from the other direction is doing the same. All it takes is a moment of inattention by one driver and you both are dead. (That just happened a coupla weeks ago on Blue Ravine just west of Bidwell)).
So here is my question (with my tongue just a little in my cheek) How do you get used to that?

#21 ducky

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:49 PM

Ducky,
Your points are well taken but lets face it, just a whole lotta situations we find ourselves (biking, driving, walking) require nothing more and nothing less than faith .
Every time you are driving in the inside lane and someone coming from the other direction is doing the same. All it takes is a moment of inattention by one driver and you both are dead. (That just happened a coupla weeks ago on Blue Ravine just west of Bidwell)).
So here is my question (with my tongue just a little in my cheek) How do you get used to that?


And with a little big of tongue in cheek right back at ya, I get used to that with air bags and at least some metal barrier between us; whereas, on a bike, it's just my cervical, thoracic, and lumbar vertebra being impacted by a couple of thousand pounds of speeding metal.

Edit: I'd like to add, please don't read my post as criticizing those that ride in bike lanes. Just the opposite. I just worry when I ride that it's not a matter of if, but when I will be hit, which is probably peculiar to me. Maybe after riding a while you just get used to it.

I wonder if there is any technology that could be developed with autos that would detect when bicycles are within a certain distance of them just like planes have to avoid collisions?

#22 fatfenders

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 10:03 PM

And with a little big of tongue in cheek right back at ya, I get used to that with air bags and at least some metal barrier between us; whereas, on a bike, it's just my cervical, thoracic, and lumbar vertebra being impacted by a couple of thousand pounds of speeding metal.


touché

#23 apeman45

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 09:32 AM

Fatfender - I actually drove by your accident scene when the emergency responders were there. Glad to here you will be ok. Some encouragement from my similar experience.
I was hit at an intersection by a man who never saw me because he was looking back to make an illegal lane change over a solid yellow line, I was lucky someone stopped and provided me contact info as a witness. The driver was very upset and sorry and accepted blame. He gave me his insurance info and said it would be taken care of. My butt had left a dent in his Audi car hood and my bike was destroyed. I had a broken tailbone and got to sit on a donut for a month. Well 2 days after the accident I got a call from the drivers wife who said I was at fault and I needed to pay for the butt dent. I told her she was making a huge mistake and she would be hearing from a lawyer. Ten minutes later her insurance agent from AAA called and literally kissed my sore butt and was very very sorry their client had bothered me. They needed a picture of the bike and told me to buy whatever bike I wanted. I did and brought them the picture and a receipt and they cut me a check on the spot. They offered to pay for my medical too but I had coverage and let them slide. I could have easily got some pain and suffering money from them which they even offered unsolicited. It's a sad fact of the insurance business that they will offer you money above and beyond damages just so you sign the waiver because sue happy people are the reason our premiums are so high. I was happy to get a nice new bike but I couldn't ride it for a month.

Anyway my point is once you get the insurance contact info they will take care of you but make sure you are really ok before signing the waiver.

#24 fatfenders

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 10:58 AM

Fatfender - I actually drove by your accident scene when the emergency responders were there. Glad to here you will be ok. Some encouragement from my similar experience.
I was hit at an intersection by a man who never saw me because he was looking back to make an illegal lane change over a solid yellow line, I was lucky someone stopped and provided me contact info as a witness. The driver was very upset and sorry and accepted blame. He gave me his insurance info and said it would be taken care of. My butt had left a dent in his Audi car hood and my bike was destroyed. I had a broken tailbone and got to sit on a donut for a month. Well 2 days after the accident I got a call from the drivers wife who said I was at fault and I needed to pay for the butt dent. I told her she was making a huge mistake and she would be hearing from a lawyer. Ten minutes later her insurance agent from AAA called and literally kissed my sore butt and was very very sorry their client had bothered me. They needed a picture of the bike and told me to buy whatever bike I wanted. I did and brought them the picture and a receipt and they cut me a check on the spot. They offered to pay for my medical too but I had coverage and let them slide. I could have easily got some pain and suffering money from them which they even offered unsolicited. It's a sad fact of the insurance business that they will offer you money above and beyond damages just so you sign the waiver because sue happy people are the reason our premiums are so high. I was happy to get a nice new bike but I couldn't ride it for a month.

Anyway my point is once you get the insurance contact info they will take care of you but make sure you are really ok before signing the waiver.

Apeman,
Thanks for chiming in and thanks for the advice. BTW, was I still laying on the ground when you went by? Also, ever since the collision I have been curious as to where my bike actually ended up. Sounds like they might have already move me/bike by the time you went by.

#25 The Average Joe

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:31 PM

this is why I only bike on the trails..the only risk there is a little kid that goes a little wide on the corner or at time the wanta be hot cyclist that forgets to say "on your left". it never happens that the bike wins in a car bike collision

This just happened to a friend of mine on the bike trail. Head on collision with another cyclist in the wrong lane. Just scrapes and bruises for those involved...
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#26 fatfenders

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

This just happened to a friend of mine on the bike trail. Head on collision with another cyclist in the wrong lane. Just scrapes and bruises for those involved...

Ouch! Do you know exactly where it happened? Curious to know if it one of my 'favorite' spots.

#27 apeman45

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:06 PM

Thanks for chiming in and thanks for the advice. BTW, was I still laying on the ground when you went by? Also, ever since the collision I have been curious as to where my bike actually ended up. Sounds like they might have already move me/bike by the time you went by.
[/quote]

They had just taken you away in the ambulance. I saw the bike lying there with police and fire doing their accident scene stuff. I assume it was the minivan that hit you and they were still questioning the driver. Good luck and get back out these as soon as you can.

#28 tony

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 09:05 AM

Tony,
"Too Funny X 2"!
Between my last post and this one, I went out and got the mail. And, of course, there was my (Signed) copy of "Bicycling and the Law"!
So thanks for the offer to borrow your copy but, of course, not needed now.
Also, thanks for the offer to help me find a lawyer but while chatting with Bob I asked him..."how in the heck do you make any money from the "Contact" tab on you website. I mean, how many callers live near enough to you to for them to hire you? He indicated that about one in 30 calls result in a few bucks for him by way of recommending someone local to the caller.(He must know a lot of lawyers who do "bicycle law"). Anyway, after nearly an hour of free legal advice and a book on the subject I will be contacting him again regarding someone local in the hope he can pick up a few bucks out of the deal.
Along with the book I also received the (2) "Tachyon" helmet cams I ordered right after the collision for my bride and I. Just one more way to deal with "Bicycling and the law". After this last adventure we have committed to recording all of our bike trips. Just can't hurt. The Tachyon has a continuous loop feature and will record around 4 hours with a 16g card.
BTW, did you just spin RAGBRAI?
Sounds like we might have fun swap'n lies... Be glad to buy you a Starbucks if you have a mind.

that was quick! I'm guessing that Bob has better advice on local bike lawyers than I do, or a best, the same advice.

As I recall, Bob is in Ohio (or was it Oregon?), which is where I was doing a "credit card" tour with my brother (actually, South Haven, MI to Tiffin, OH; long story how we came up with those two). Never done RAGBRAI, but it always sounded like a great event, although I'm not much for mass rides.

Starbucks at Broadstone Parkway and E. Bidwell is often on my ride to work (although I prefer the Jamba Juice around the corner, given that I don't drink coffee). Send me a PM and we'll get together some morning. Also, oyu might be interested in joining the Folsom Area Bicycle Advocates, which is a loosely-organized, recently not very active, always looking for some new blood (especially of the retired kind). Our fearless leader is currently at the TDF (watching), but we are due for a meeting in the next month or so.

#29 bmwonly

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 09:28 AM

Ditto. I know of a recent very serious bike-bike crash on the ARP (happened to know people associated with both parties) involving an idiot (and old enough to know better) cyclist racing on a lunch ride. Walt Seifert, former Executive Director of SABA, was fond of saying that the bike path is the most dangerous place to ride. I'm not sure I would go that far; but it's not a walk in the park, so to speak.


Hope he signs it! If you would like to borrow my copy in the mean time, please let me know.


The main problem with retirement is I don't have anything to do so I never know when I'm done!!

#30 tony

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 09:33 AM

I don't dispute your reasoning, but I still can't fight the instinct that cars rushing past you from behind at speeds ranging from 25 to 60 miles an hour (I have going down Riley from Oak Ave Pkwy to Blue Ravine in mind when I say this) just isn't safe. How do you get used to that? I'd rather be on the sidwalk there. I never trust people turning left or out of driveways to stop or see me whether running or riding.

Ducky, here's the short version. Of all reported bike crashes (they are typically only reported if they involve medical treatment), less than 30% involve a car. About the same percentage involve another bicyclist, and the rest are random falls, collisions with fixed objects (e.g., bollards), etc. Of those involving a car, less than 15% involve a car going in the same direction, the ones that a bike lane helps prevent, but which can still happen when riding in a bike lane (the ones that scare you and many other people). But the real risk of riding where cars are involved, is at intersections. And the best way to avoid those, as the League of American Bicyclists Traffic Skills Class mantra states, is by acting and being treated as a vehicle. Specifically, when you follow the rules of the road (same ones apply to bicyclists as motorists, with a few notable exceptions) you are predictable and visible, and those are the two most important factors is riding safely. The problem with sidewalk riding is that at every driveway and intersection, you are NOT in the field of view of the normal motorist, who is looking for cars on the road and, if you're lucky, slow-moving pedestrians on the sidewalk. Plus, half the time, you are going the "wrong" way, which means the motorists will not even be looking your general direction (right turning motorists look left for traffic and rarely look right before starting to move). Also, riding on the sidewalk you are a hazard to pedestrians.

BTW, you sound like a prime candidate for a Traffic Skills 101 class. They are offered regularly in Sacramento by Smart Cycling Sacramento, but if there were some interest (four to six people), I could get a class together in Folsom (the benefit of taking it in Folsom, besides not having to travel, is that you practice on the roads you are most likely to be riding on with instructors who ride them all them time).




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